NP R-40-25 PFE Reefer Clones
OK, I have been through the archives of this list as well as the NP
Yahoo List and even the old freight car list and I haven't found the
definitive answer I'm looking for: What color scheme did the Northern
Pacific Pacific Car & Foundry built PFE R-40-25 reefer clones have
when built ???
Orange Sides: I thought I saw somewhere a color match to the light
orange. isaw notes of a PFE and NP car coupled together with the NP
having a much lighter shade of orange.
Ends: Was this a brown or more boxcar red shade ?
Roof: Brown/Red or Aluminum/Galvanized ?
Side Hardware: Was this trimmed in black when built ?
I know in later years the cars were painted yellow with the Vista
Dome slogan but I'm trying to pin down how they looked when built and
also any good paint matches.
MATT HERSON <npry2526@...>
From Richard Hendrickson message 2-19-05:
Paul, I have both builders and in-service photos of these cars. There has
always been some confusion about them because there were two series,
91000-91249 built in late 1947 and 91250-91499 built in mid-1949. Both
were built directly off the PFE drawings by Pacific Car & Foundry 9with
PFE's permission), but the second series were clones of the PFE R-40-25
class and had diagonal-panel roofs.
The information I have, from NP sources I trust, is that the 9100-91249
series cars were delivered with black roof and ends; the roofs were
aluminum only on the later 91250-91499 series cars. And though the photos I
have are B/W, they rather strongly confirm this. Both series were later
repainted with mineral red roofs and ends. When the earliest cars in the
91000-91249 series were delivered, they were not stenciled with "Main
Street of the Northwest" slogans under the heralds. I'm not sure when the
slogans started to be added, but I have a photo of NP 91000, the class car,
without the slogans and of NP 91072 with them, so they must have been
applied fairly early in the production run and certainly would have been on
the cars your models are numbered for.
The photos I have show three different cars with widely separated numbers
in the 91000-91249 series and all have Ajax hand brakes and Morton running
boards, so I think it can be inferred that all cars in the series had the
same equipment (which is what's on my IM model of NP 91123). If I were
you, I wouldn't part with those models.
Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
From Rufus Cone message 11-14-02
Official NP 'Standard Practice' from the steam era specified 'Chrome Yellow'
Ends and roof were either mineral red or black depending on car series and
exact time period.
Observation and examination of color photographs from the later diesel era
show cars that look more orange and there have been extensive debates about
orange being an original color rather than the consequence of weathering. I
have not seen any documents specifying orange and I have looked for them.
From Guy Wilbur 11-15-02
The following comes from Rick Leach, a noted expert on the rolling stock of
the Northern Pacific.
Rufus Cone's research is absolutely correct. The Northern Pacific
referred to the color as "Chrome Yellow." NP South Tacoma shop records
1926-1947 (in my collection) further referenced the color as such, as
does NP specification M-152 B, "Chrome Yellow Refrigerator Car Paint,"
dated May 27, 1929. I have actual samples of paint from several
reefers, including NP 91476 painted at South Tacoma, Wash., August 30,
1928. Additionally, I own NP 91724, built at Brainerd, Minn. in
September 1954. This car is still in it's original paint and by buffing
the paint on the side, checking hidden areas (inside the door) and yellow
paint overlaid by mineral red on the ends, all closely match the other NP
samples, including the ones from wood cars.
My sample of new PFE orange is clearly that and bears no resemblance to
the NP color.
The color can be described as "yellow orange," somewhat like new
"Scotchlite" on highway warning signs. Some color photos taken in the
1960's show cars which seem more orange, fueling this current
speculation. The use of color photos to "match" paint color is risky at
best, due to the shift of colors in film, the lighting at the time of the
photo and the exposure.
The practice of using car cement on NP steel box car ends was begun
March, 1944. Ends on NP steel reefers were also painted with car cement
and the practice was discontinued in January 1950. Actual examination of
car ends of cars in series 91000-91249 (Nov. 1947) and 91250-91499 (July
1949) revealed traces of car cement under the mineral red of subsequent
CHROME YELLOW SIDES
Hope this helps.
On Saturday, April 2, 2005, at 04:28 PM, MATT HERSON wrote:
Matt,Ends: Was this a brown or more boxcar red shade ?BLACKRoof: Brown/Red or Aluminum/Galvanized ?ALUMINUMSide Hardware: Was this trimmed in black when built ?BLACK
This being the case, if I understand correctly then the as-built
version of the Amarillo RR Museum's models of the R-40-25 copy
(91250-91499) was painted incorrectly. The models came with aluminum
roofs and freight car red ends. The ARM coordinated with a number of
resources and believed they had accurate information.
I have a question about any repaints from either the 91000-91249 or
91250-91499 series cars, say in 1953, and prior to the use of the 1954
"North Coast Limited" scheme - were ends painted freight car red and
what color would the roofs have been?
Interestingly, the 91500-91999 series cars built in 1954 had freight
car red ends and black roofs. This is verified by Rick Leach, who owns
one of the cars, and a color photo of new car 91819 available from
Bob's Photo. Thanks in advance.
Matt Herson <npry2526@...>
Ed Hawkins wrote:
The statement of black ends for the as built 91250-91499 cars came using a
quote from Rick Leach in my last post. "The practice of using car cement
on NP steel box car ends was begun March, 1944. Ends on NP steel reefers
were also painted with car cement and the practice was discontinued in
January 1950. Actual examination of car ends of cars in series 91000-91249
(Nov. 1947) and 91250-91499 (July 1949) revealed traces of car cement under
the mineral red of subsequent painting."
Personally I have never seen a color photo of 91250-91499 with the original
paint scheme and B&W photos are inconclusive as to the color. Other than
the above quote have no first hand documentation. As there is a question as
to the color of the ends, would interested in other documentation.
FYI - Challenger imported the 91250-91499 series in the original paint and
the models had freight car red ends.
Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
I received my "Mainstreeter" back issues and the overhead picture of
NP 91497, which appears new, in volume 4, number 2, has either fierce
sun glare or what sure looks like a silver roof. The photo source
shows as Gene Suter for both photos. Maybe someone can get the
original prints. The article has some interesting shots but no
captioning. A couple of other photos and drawings in the same issue
are of NP 91606 which has the 3 piece door like the R40-10, PFE
41010, on P.188 of the PFE book and a wood reefer, NP 93614 which
looks like what Red Caboose trying to model (theirs are 90000
series), and in Volume 5 number 2, an overhead shot of NP 90880 which
looks like it has a radial roof. As information Vol 12 number 2,
Spring 1983 "Mainstreeter" has a great rundown of the NP mechanical
reefers. I'm measuring my Golden Spike/Silver Streak cars to see if
they will be suitable for one of the FGE clones built by PC&F.
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Herson" <npry2526@w...> wrote:
ofroofs and freight car red ends. The ARM coordinated with a number
orresources and believed they had accurate information.
the 195491250-91499 series cars, say in 1953, and prior to the use of
and"North Coast Limited" scheme - were ends painted freight car red
freightwhat color would the roofs have been?
ownscar red ends and black roofs. This is verified by Rick Leach, who
using aone of the cars, and a color photo of new car 91819 available fromEd,
quote from Rick Leach in my last post. "The practice of using carcement
on NP steel box car ends was begun March, 1944. Ends on NP steelreefers
were also painted with car cement and the practice was discontinuedin
January 1950. Actual examination of car ends of cars in series91000-91249
(Nov. 1947) and 91250-91499 (July 1949) revealed traces of carcement under
the mineral red of subsequent painting."original
paint scheme and B&W photos are inconclusive as to the color.Other than
the above quote have no first hand documentation. As there is aquestion as
to the color of the ends, would interested in other documentation.paint and
the models had freight car red ends.