Essential freight cars in RMC


Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
 

First off, cudos to Ted for this series and for his modeling
abilities! I have learned a lot, and expect I will learn more. My
best efforts would not stand up to the close-up shots I've drooled over.

However, I don't have all the issues, so I don't know what the list is
so far. He doesn't seem to be doing them in order from 'most
essential' to 'least'. I was worried when I saw the carbon black and
vinegar cars that we were at the end of the series! (They can't be
seen as essential individually, but he makes a good point that some
oddball cars would be present in any yard, take your pick which cars
those would be.) I am gratified that he is continuing on.
What is the list of cars up 'til now? I wonder what's missing... I
don't remember seeing USRA hoppers, but builing a fleet of those to
Ted's standards is a daunting task. Ted, can we have a hint of future
cars to be included? Anybody want to cast votes for "most essential
freight car not availble in styrene or resin?" I suppose that gets
down to what you mean by "not available"; what you are willing to
accept as a stand-in. I think we are missing a Proto/RC/IM-quality 36'
DS box car in styrene, the MDC models are not an acceptable stand-in.
Funaro has some in resing that I may be able to get 2-for-1 at the next
train show, but I don't know whether the quality of the casting is up
to Proto/RC/IM standards! (Their recent kits are better, I don't knwo
where any of their 36' DS offerings fall. I just noticed they are now
selling the B&O M53 wagontop direct.)
Dean Payne


jerryglow2
 

I don't know if he coined it or picked it up elsewhere but Terry
Wiegman used to use the phrase "historically significant" which I
like better. "Essential" seems to indicate "you should have one"
which may not be true (era, road or geographic area etc). Terry's
term to me, indicates a car that fits and is like a historical
landmark for freight cars. Just a matter of personal interpretation,
I guess.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <deanpayne@n...> wrote:

First off, cudos to Ted for this series and for his modeling
abilities! I have learned a lot, and expect I will learn more.
My
best efforts would not stand up to the close-up shots I've drooled
over.

However, I don't have all the issues, so I don't know what the
list is
so far. He doesn't seem to be doing them in order from 'most
essential' to 'least'.
Dean Payne


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

"Essential" seems to indicate "you should have one" which may not be true
(era, road or geographic area etc).<
Actually I believe "you should have one" is what the series is all
about. These are cars that would show up on all roads most of the time.
Era might change this some but I think the era this list is concerned with,
it would be true.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Dean Payne asked:
"However, I don't have all the issues, so I don't know what the list
is so far. <<snip>> What is the list of cars up 'til now?"

Dean, if you do an author search on "Culotta, Ted" on the Model Train
Magazine Index at http://index.mrmmag.com , it'll give you a
bibliography of all of his articles to date.


"...I don't remember seeing USRA hoppers, but builing a fleet of
those to Ted's standards is a daunting task."

We've discussed hoppers in this context numerous times before on this
list. What might be essential hoppers to a northeastern modeler are
irrelevant to someone who models the Santa Fe or Union Pacific.
Check the archives for posts by Tim Gilbert, et. al. on this subject.


"Anybody want to cast votes for 'most essential freight car not
available in styrene or resin?'"

The NYC USRA-design steel boxcar has been available from Al
Westerfield in resin for many years, but the quantities that are need
on steam and transition-era layouts are such that it just begs to be
done in styrene. What if the only X29s available today are the old
Train-Miniature model and the Sunshine resin kits, with a 6-month
backorder on the latter? Pennsy modelers simply would not stand for
it. For a non-PRR layout, you should have one NYC USRA-design steel
boxcar for every X29. Unfortunately, NYC modelers (with the
exception of the very few on this list) simply don't give a rat's ass
about freight cars, and the rest of the prototype modeler community
suffers from their lack of interest.


"I suppose that gets down to what you mean by "not available"; what
you are willing to accept as a stand-in. I think we are missing a
Proto/RC/IM-quality 36' DS box car in styrene, the MDC models are not
an acceptable stand-in. Funaro has some in resing that I may be able
to get 2-for-1 at the next train show, but I don't know whether the
quality of the casting is up to Proto/RC/IM standards!"

Don't expect the 36 ft boxcars in injection molded styrene - too much
variation in details between different roads to make the tooling
investment economical. Resin remains the perfect medium for these
prototype - unless you're doing pre-1930, you won't need huge numbers
of the same 36 ft prototypes. For most transition-era modelers, the
36 ft prototypes would encompass a variety of prototypes in
relatively small quantities by road.

I recently picked up a pair of Funaro 36 ft Rutland boxcars - I'll
post a review once I'm done with them.


Ben Hom


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

What's still coming? Not in any particular order...

-- Wagontop/Ribbed side/X37
-- X29/M-26
-- Single sheathed ARA
-- 1932 ARA
-- 1937 AAR
-- Modified 1937 AAR
-- flat cars
-- NYC USRA steel design
-- SFRD reefers
-- some gons

There are a few more that I'm forgetting, too.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

CORRECTED LINK:
http://index.mrmag.com
Search "Culotta, Ted".


Ben Hom


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

but there is a recent advancement in the RP tooling world that can have
HUGE impact on short run projects. I'm now able to have the SLA process
produce ceramic injection mold cores and cavities within 3-4 days!<

It's beginning to sound like very limited run models could be make in
styrene using the above process. Not sure how the design/tooling cost would
divide into the maximum run but it really sounds like this might be the
future for limited run styrene kits.
Our discussion before centered on masters for resin but this sounds like
styrene kits could also be part of the discussion.
Historical societies and clubs _might_ have the funds necessary to
support the tooling. Of course it would take careful study of cost vs.
sales!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dean:

If you are asking for votes on needed cars, I would love to have a 10,000 gallon single-dome AC&F Type 4 tank car, the one with the high walkway (6,000 and 8,000 gallon sizes would be nice too). I wouldn't want to try this in resin; plastic is what we need. I built one using an old Walthers car with a shortened tank, but it is just a stand-in.

Of course, I'm still lobbying Martin for a General American 46' GS gondola (D&RGW and WP!).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dean Payne wrote:

. . . Anybody want to cast votes for "most essential freight car not availble in styrene or resin?" I suppose that gets down to what you mean by "not available"; what you are willing to accept as a stand-in . . . .


Shawn Beckert
 

Garth Groff wrote:

If you are asking for votes on needed cars, I would love to have a
10,000 gallon single-dome AC&F Type 4 tank car, the one with the high
walkway (6,000 and 8,000 gallon sizes would be nice too).
Well, gee - if we're going to get another poll going, let me suggest a
GATC 8,000 or 10,000 tank car. I could use both in large quantities. Also
a tank car (any builder, I don't care which) with a LARGE dome.

Please, somebody...

Shawn Beckert


Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
 

On Apr 22, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Dean Payne wrote:

First off, cudos to Ted for this series and for his modeling
abilities! 
<snip>
I was worried when I saw the carbon black and
vinegar cars that we were at the end of the series! 
No, no, we can't be at the end of the series! Ted hasn't done Helium
tank cars yet!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Clyde Williams <billdgoat@...>
 

Is this a new poll? If so, how about a decent styrene 36' stock car,
open or solid ended, both would be better. As in other cars, the MDC
just doesn't cut it.
Bill Williams


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

The estimable. Dr. Smith writes-

No, no, we can't be at the end of the series! Ted hasn't done Helium
tank cars yet!
Bruce, I am sure that you overlooked the truly ubiquitous poultry car.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote:

Is this a new poll? If so, how about a decent styrene 36' stock car,
open or solid ended, both would be better. As in other cars, the MDC
just doesn't cut it.
Bill Williams
Bill, AFAIK a 36' stock car in styrene isn't high on any manufacturer's priority list for future production. However, resin kits ar ethe subject ofTed's series in RMC, and Westerfield makes fine resin kits for the SP/T&NO/NWP etc. 36' stock cars, which were the most numerous cars of that type during the steam era, as well as for the MILW's 36' stock cars, of which there were more than 3,000.

Other RRs that had large numbers of 36' stock cars were the Burlington and the C&NW, and some day it would be nice to have resin kits for those as well (the Q cars have been done in HO, but only in brass).

Richard Hendrickson


Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

It would be nice to see if we can get a resin kit maker such as Al
Westerfield or Martin Lofton to do the PRR K8 stock cars as a flat kit.
This was the last wood body car that the Penn had prior to their
converting the X31 box cars into steel stock cars. It was also almost
as numerous as the ubiquitous K7a's which Broadway Limited brought out
recently.

I am sure if Al or Martin did the K8's that we would not have had the
problems that came with the BLI K7a's.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote:


Is this a new poll? If so, how about a decent styrene 36' stock car,
open or solid ended, both would be better. As in other cars, the MDC
just doesn't cut it.
Bill Williams

Bill, AFAIK a 36' stock car in styrene isn't high on any manufacturer's
priority list for future production. However, resin kits ar ethe
subject ofTed's series in RMC, and Westerfield makes fine resin kits
for the SP/T&NO/NWP etc. 36' stock cars, which were the most numerous
cars of that type during the steam era, as well as for the MILW's 36'
stock cars, of which there were more than 3,000.

Other RRs that had large numbers of 36' stock cars were the Burlington
and the C&NW, and some day it would be nice to have resin kits for
those as well (the Q cars have been done in HO, but only in brass).

Richard Hendrickson





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Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

For historical interest, here, minus the ones already covered, is Ted's
original Essential Freight Cars list from 2 years ago.

9. ATSF Bx-11/-12/-13 SS box cars (Westerfield)
11. X29/'23 ARA and other derivatives (Red Caboose, Sunshine, Yankee
Clipper/F&C)
12. 1932 ARA box car (Sunshine, Yankee Clipper)
13. 1937 AAR box car (IMWX, Red Caboose)
14. Mod. 1937 AAR box car (Intermountain, Sunshine)
15. MP Howe truss SS box cars (Sunshine)
16. Southern DS auto cars and 36' truss rod uframe cars (Sunshine and
Westerfield, respectively)
17. Wabash SS auto cars (Funaro)
18. ARA SS cars - B&M, SAL B-3/-4/-5 (Funaro on B&M and Funaro? on SAL)
19. Anthracite theme - DL&W ARA DS cars and LV 'wrong way' cars (Sunshine
and Funaro)
20. PRR X31 et al (Bowser, Central Hobbies, Sunshine)
21. Milw ribbed side and B&O wagontops (plus sidebar on PRR X37 - all
Sunshine or Central Hobbies on Wagontop)
22. PRR GS gons and derivatives and NYC USRA type rebuilt or built new
steel gons (Sunshine and Funaro)
24. SFRD 'ARA' and 'USRA' type rebuilt reefers (Sunshine and Intermountain)
27. NYC USRA design steel box cars (Westerfield)
30. ATSF box car rebuilds (non-USRA - Sunshine mini kit)
32. ACL 40' steel furniture cars (who will make this?)

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Apr 24, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:


For historical interest, here, minus the ones already covered, is Ted's
original Essential Freight Cars list from 2 years ago.

9. ATSF Bx-11/-12/-13 SS box cars (Westerfield)
forthcoming (these are ARA single sheathed cars)

11. X29/'23 ARA and other derivatives (Red Caboose, Sunshine, Yankee
Clipper/F&C)
12. 1932 ARA box car (Sunshine, Yankee Clipper)
13. 1937 AAR box car (IMWX, Red Caboose)
14. Mod. 1937 AAR box car (Intermountain, Sunshine)
15. MP Howe truss SS box cars (Sunshine)
done already... see alternate ARA single sheathed cars article

16. Southern DS auto cars and 36' truss rod uframe cars (Sunshine and
Westerfield, respectively)
done under articles about Southern 36' truss rod cars and ARA double sheathed cars

17. Wabash SS auto cars (Funaro)
18. ARA SS cars - B&M, SAL B-3/-4/-5 (Funaro on B&M and Funaro? on SAL)
19. Anthracite theme - DL&W ARA DS cars and LV 'wrong way' cars (Sunshine
and Funaro)
done under ARA double sheathed cars

20. PRR X31 et al (Bowser, Central Hobbies, Sunshine)
21. Milw ribbed side and B&O wagontops (plus sidebar on PRR X37 - all
Sunshine or Central Hobbies on Wagontop)
22. PRR GS gons and derivatives and NYC USRA type rebuilt or built new
steel gons (Sunshine and Funaro)
24. SFRD 'ARA' and 'USRA' type rebuilt reefers (Sunshine and Intermountain)
27. NYC USRA design steel box cars (Westerfield)
30. ATSF box car rebuilds (non-USRA - Sunshine mini kit)
done under ARA double sheathed cars

32. ACL 40' steel furniture cars (who will make this?)
Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!

And how about X29Bs. There are rumors that F&C will do one this year. It
appears that C&BT is long forgotten.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Thomas M. Olsen
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 10:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Essential freight cars in RMC


It would be nice to see if we can get a resin kit maker such as Al
Westerfield or Martin Lofton to do the PRR K8 stock cars as a flat kit.
This was the last wood body car that the Penn had prior to their converting
the X31 box cars into steel stock cars. It was also almost as numerous as
the ubiquitous K7a's which Broadway Limited brought out recently.

I am sure if Al or Martin did the K8's that we would not have had the
problems that came with the BLI K7a's.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote:


Is this a new poll? If so, how about a decent styrene 36' stock car,
open or solid ended, both would be better. As in other cars, the MDC
just doesn't cut it.
Bill Williams

Bill, AFAIK a 36' stock car in styrene isn't high on any manufacturer's
priority list for future production. However, resin kits ar ethe
subject ofTed's series in RMC, and Westerfield makes fine resin kits
for the SP/T&NO/NWP etc. 36' stock cars, which were the most numerous
cars of that type during the steam era, as well as for the MILW's 36'
stock cars, of which there were more than 3,000.

Other RRs that had large numbers of 36' stock cars were the Burlington
and the C&NW, and some day it would be nice to have resin kits for
those as well (the Q cars have been done in HO, but only in brass).

Richard Hendrickson





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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Andy Miller wrote:

If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!

And how about X29Bs. There are rumors that F&C will do one this year. It
appears that C&BT is long forgotten.
Nonsense! If you remember Ted Culotta's Introduction to "The Essential Freight Car" series on page 79 of the April 2003 RMC, "Essential Freight Cars ... should be present on almost ALL steam/diesel transition or first or early second diesel-era layouts ...." Since when could a PRR stock car appear on RR's on the West Coast in any quantity to justify a western RR modeler to waste his time and resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of other freight cars which would be far more appropriate to appear on his layout?

I'm not saying that a PRR K8 is not an appropriate prototype to model, but it would be foolish for a manufacturer to rely on many Western RR modelers to buy a K8 model. The market would be restricted to eastern RR modelers including the SPF's.

A boxcar such as the X29 is different than a stock car because of the variety of commodities that a boxcar could carry versus the relatively few which a stock car could. Boxcars regularly traveled to all parts of the nation, and when they were emptied, a large percentage of them were reloaded, and sent elsewhere. Stock Cars were essentially a rural to urban movement with few possible return loads. Also, LA slaughterhouses (or feedlots) did not buy much livestock from Pennsylvania.

The last paragraph of Ted's introduction said "This series will not focus on cars that were not widely interchanged, however. An example would be the N&W H2/H2a/H3 hoppers which were built in vast numbers, but tended to stay on the home road." I beg to differ with Ted's statement that N&W's hoppers were mostly "stay at homes." For most years in the 1940-60 Era, the daily average of cars on the N&W were fewer that the number of hoppers the N&W owned. which infers that N&W hoppers were interchanged with other railroads (in 1947, the N&W delivered over 195,000 loaded cars to the PRR at Columbus OH: - most of them N&W hoppers - because of Car Service Rule C-411, it can be assumed that any loaded N&W hopper east of the Rockies was loaded with coal from N&W's territory).

The movement of N&W hoppers off-road, however, was mostly restricted to nearby roads. The occasional N&W hopper did go over UP's Sherman Hill, but it was a rarity - estimated to be about one every 2,000 freight cars. Now if a Sherman Hill modeler has 2,000 cars on his layout, he may be justified in having one N&W hopper.

The use of the adjective "essential" may be unfortunate which some have applied locally or regionally. A better adjective may be "universal" or "ubiquitous." In the context of Ted's series, the cars to be discussed were, in large part, designs developed either by individual RR's (or private car lines) themselves, by an association committee, or a manufacturer. These designs had to be produced in large enough quantities so as any modeler could justify having them on his layout regardless of where the prototype for that layout was located. Once in service, cars of the particular design could appear in revenue service on any railroad - real railroads, unlike some modelers, usually hauled cars for a purpose.

Most of the series that Ted has discussed have been boxcars for good reason. Other cars within car types which could be discussed would be eastern fixed bottom gons in steel service, tank cars owned generically by the large car lines and long haul produce reefers. General Flat Cars were also widely dispersed, but the total of these in service barely exceeded the number of X29's which were in service in 1947.

Tim Gilbert


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:
..." Since when could a PRR stock car appear on RR's on the West Coast
in any quantity to justify a western RR modeler to waste his time and
resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of other freight cars
which would be far more appropriate to appear on his layout?

Tim, I agree, but is it possible that the K8 was a standard design
used by other railroads too? Ambroid letters the cars for several
different railroads. I've noticed that NKP and WP had some near
identical stock cars; they certainly weren't neighbors.

Regarding the statement that N&W's hoppers were mostly "stay at homes"
I've seen photos of all hopper trains on the Erie consisting of PRR
and NYC hoppers with an occasional N&W hopper. I assume that these
trains were delivering bituminous coal.

Ed


Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

Tim,

I'm sorry you are so down on Easterners, but the "poll" was for resin cars
and I believe there are enough Pennsy fans alone to warrant a PRR car not
yet available except in brass.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
Gilbert
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 11:40 AM
To: STMFC@...
Cc: Ted Culotta; bills@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Essential freight cars in RMC


Andy Miller wrote:

If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!

And how about X29Bs. There are rumors that F&C will do one this year.
It appears that C&BT is long forgotten.
Nonsense! If you remember Ted Culotta's Introduction to "The Essential
Freight Car" series on page 79 of the April 2003 RMC, "Essential Freight
Cars ... should be present on almost ALL steam/diesel transition or first or
early second diesel-era layouts ...." Since when could a PRR stock car
appear on RR's on the West Coast in any quantity to justify a western RR
modeler to waste his time and resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of
other freight cars which would be far more appropriate to appear on his
layout?

I'm not saying that a PRR K8 is not an appropriate prototype to model, but
it would be foolish for a manufacturer to rely on many Western RR modelers
to buy a K8 model. The market would be restricted to eastern RR modelers
including the SPF's.

A boxcar such as the X29 is different than a stock car because of the
variety of commodities that a boxcar could carry versus the relatively few
which a stock car could. Boxcars regularly traveled to all parts of the
nation, and when they were emptied, a large percentage of them were
reloaded, and sent elsewhere. Stock Cars were essentially a rural to urban
movement with few possible return loads. Also, LA slaughterhouses (or
feedlots) did not buy much livestock from Pennsylvania.

The last paragraph of Ted's introduction said "This series will not focus on
cars that were not widely interchanged, however. An example would be the N&W
H2/H2a/H3 hoppers which were built in vast numbers, but tended to stay on
the home road." I beg to differ with Ted's statement that N&W's hoppers were
mostly "stay at homes." For most years in the 1940-60 Era, the daily average
of cars on the N&W were fewer that the number of hoppers the N&W owned.
which infers that N&W hoppers were interchanged with other railroads (in
1947, the N&W delivered over 195,000 loaded cars to the PRR at Columbus OH:
- most of them N&W hoppers - because of Car Service Rule C-411, it can be
assumed that any loaded N&W hopper east of the Rockies was loaded with coal
from N&W's territory).

The movement of N&W hoppers off-road, however, was mostly restricted to
nearby roads. The occasional N&W hopper did go over UP's Sherman Hill, but
it was a rarity - estimated to be about one every 2,000 freight cars. Now if
a Sherman Hill modeler has 2,000 cars on his layout, he may be justified in
having one N&W hopper.

The use of the adjective "essential" may be unfortunate which some have
applied locally or regionally. A better adjective may be "universal" or
"ubiquitous." In the context of Ted's series, the cars to be discussed were,
in large part, designs developed either by individual RR's (or private car
lines) themselves, by an association committee, or a manufacturer. These
designs had to be produced in large enough quantities so as any modeler
could justify having them on his layout regardless of where the prototype
for that layout was located. Once in service, cars of the particular design
could appear in revenue service on any railroad - real railroads, unlike
some modelers, usually hauled cars for a purpose.

Most of the series that Ted has discussed have been boxcars for good reason.
Other cars within car types which could be discussed would be eastern fixed
bottom gons in steel service, tank cars owned generically by the large car
lines and long haul produce reefers. General Flat Cars were also widely
dispersed, but the total of these in service barely exceeded the number of
X29's which were in service in 1947.

Tim Gilbert







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