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Essential freight cars in RMC
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Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
First off, cudos to Ted for this series and for his modeling
abilities! I have learned a lot, and expect I will learn more. My best efforts would not stand up to the close-up shots I've drooled over. However, I don't have all the issues, so I don't know what the list is so far. He doesn't seem to be doing them in order from 'most essential' to 'least'. I was worried when I saw the carbon black and vinegar cars that we were at the end of the series! (They can't be seen as essential individually, but he makes a good point that some oddball cars would be present in any yard, take your pick which cars those would be.) I am gratified that he is continuing on. What is the list of cars up 'til now? I wonder what's missing... I don't remember seeing USRA hoppers, but builing a fleet of those to Ted's standards is a daunting task. Ted, can we have a hint of future cars to be included? Anybody want to cast votes for "most essential freight car not availble in styrene or resin?" I suppose that gets down to what you mean by "not available"; what you are willing to accept as a stand-in. I think we are missing a Proto/RC/IM-quality 36' DS box car in styrene, the MDC models are not an acceptable stand-in. Funaro has some in resing that I may be able to get 2-for-1 at the next train show, but I don't know whether the quality of the casting is up to Proto/RC/IM standards! (Their recent kits are better, I don't knwo where any of their 36' DS offerings fall. I just noticed they are now selling the B&O M53 wagontop direct.) Dean Payne
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jerryglow2
I don't know if he coined it or picked it up elsewhere but Terry
Wiegman used to use the phrase "historically significant" which I like better. "Essential" seems to indicate "you should have one" which may not be true (era, road or geographic area etc). Terry's term to me, indicates a car that fits and is like a historical landmark for freight cars. Just a matter of personal interpretation, I guess. Jerry Glow --- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <deanpayne@n...> wrote: My best efforts would not stand up to the close-up shots I've drooledover. list is so far. He doesn't seem to be doing them in order from 'most
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
"Essential" seems to indicate "you should have one" which may not be true(era, road or geographic area etc).< Actually I believe "you should have one" is what the series is all about. These are cars that would show up on all roads most of the time. Era might change this some but I think the era this list is concerned with, it would be true. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Dean Payne asked:
"However, I don't have all the issues, so I don't know what the list is so far. <<snip>> What is the list of cars up 'til now?" Dean, if you do an author search on "Culotta, Ted" on the Model Train Magazine Index at http://index.mrmmag.com , it'll give you a bibliography of all of his articles to date. "...I don't remember seeing USRA hoppers, but builing a fleet of those to Ted's standards is a daunting task." We've discussed hoppers in this context numerous times before on this list. What might be essential hoppers to a northeastern modeler are irrelevant to someone who models the Santa Fe or Union Pacific. Check the archives for posts by Tim Gilbert, et. al. on this subject. "Anybody want to cast votes for 'most essential freight car not available in styrene or resin?'" The NYC USRA-design steel boxcar has been available from Al Westerfield in resin for many years, but the quantities that are need on steam and transition-era layouts are such that it just begs to be done in styrene. What if the only X29s available today are the old Train-Miniature model and the Sunshine resin kits, with a 6-month backorder on the latter? Pennsy modelers simply would not stand for it. For a non-PRR layout, you should have one NYC USRA-design steel boxcar for every X29. Unfortunately, NYC modelers (with the exception of the very few on this list) simply don't give a rat's ass about freight cars, and the rest of the prototype modeler community suffers from their lack of interest. "I suppose that gets down to what you mean by "not available"; what you are willing to accept as a stand-in. I think we are missing a Proto/RC/IM-quality 36' DS box car in styrene, the MDC models are not an acceptable stand-in. Funaro has some in resing that I may be able to get 2-for-1 at the next train show, but I don't know whether the quality of the casting is up to Proto/RC/IM standards!" Don't expect the 36 ft boxcars in injection molded styrene - too much variation in details between different roads to make the tooling investment economical. Resin remains the perfect medium for these prototype - unless you're doing pre-1930, you won't need huge numbers of the same 36 ft prototypes. For most transition-era modelers, the 36 ft prototypes would encompass a variety of prototypes in relatively small quantities by road. I recently picked up a pair of Funaro 36 ft Rutland boxcars - I'll post a review once I'm done with them. Ben Hom
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Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
What's still coming? Not in any particular order...
-- Wagontop/Ribbed side/X37 -- X29/M-26 -- Single sheathed ARA -- 1932 ARA -- 1937 AAR -- Modified 1937 AAR -- flat cars -- NYC USRA steel design -- SFRD reefers -- some gons There are a few more that I'm forgetting, too. Regards, Ted Culotta Speedwitch Media 100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402 info@... www.speedwitch.com (650) 787-1912
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
but there is a recent advancement in the RP tooling world that can haveHUGE impact on short run projects. I'm now able to have the SLA process produce ceramic injection mold cores and cavities within 3-4 days!< It's beginning to sound like very limited run models could be make in styrene using the above process. Not sure how the design/tooling cost would divide into the maximum run but it really sounds like this might be the future for limited run styrene kits. Our discussion before centered on masters for resin but this sounds like styrene kits could also be part of the discussion. Historical societies and clubs _might_ have the funds necessary to support the tooling. Of course it would take careful study of cost vs. sales! Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
Dean:
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If you are asking for votes on needed cars, I would love to have a 10,000 gallon single-dome AC&F Type 4 tank car, the one with the high walkway (6,000 and 8,000 gallon sizes would be nice too). I wouldn't want to try this in resin; plastic is what we need. I built one using an old Walthers car with a shortened tank, but it is just a stand-in. Of course, I'm still lobbying Martin for a General American 46' GS gondola (D&RGW and WP!). Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Dean Payne wrote:
. . . Anybody want to cast votes for "most essential freight car not availble in styrene or resin?" I suppose that gets down to what you mean by "not available"; what you are willing to accept as a stand-in . . . .
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Shawn Beckert
Garth Groff wrote:
If you are asking for votes on needed cars, I would love to have aWell, gee - if we're going to get another poll going, let me suggest a GATC 8,000 or 10,000 tank car. I could use both in large quantities. Also a tank car (any builder, I don't care which) with a LARGE dome. Please, somebody... Shawn Beckert
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Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
On Apr 22, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Dean Payne wrote:
First off, cudos to Ted for this series and for his modeling<snip> I was worried when I saw the carbon black andNo, no, we can't be at the end of the series! Ted hasn't done Helium tank cars yet! Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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Clyde Williams <billdgoat@...>
Is this a new poll? If so, how about a decent styrene 36' stock car,
open or solid ended, both would be better. As in other cars, the MDC just doesn't cut it. Bill Williams
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
The estimable. Dr. Smith writes-
No, no, we can't be at the end of the series! Ted hasn't done HeliumBruce, I am sure that you overlooked the truly ubiquitous poultry car. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento
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Richard Hendrickson
On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote:
Bill, AFAIK a 36' stock car in styrene isn't high on any manufacturer's priority list for future production. However, resin kits ar ethe subject ofTed's series in RMC, and Westerfield makes fine resin kits for the SP/T&NO/NWP etc. 36' stock cars, which were the most numerous cars of that type during the steam era, as well as for the MILW's 36' stock cars, of which there were more than 3,000. Other RRs that had large numbers of 36' stock cars were the Burlington and the C&NW, and some day it would be nice to have resin kits for those as well (the Q cars have been done in HO, but only in brass). Richard Hendrickson
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Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
It would be nice to see if we can get a resin kit maker such as Al
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Westerfield or Martin Lofton to do the PRR K8 stock cars as a flat kit. This was the last wood body car that the Penn had prior to their converting the X31 box cars into steel stock cars. It was also almost as numerous as the ubiquitous K7a's which Broadway Limited brought out recently. I am sure if Al or Martin did the K8's that we would not have had the problems that came with the BLI K7a's. Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 tmolsen@... Richard Hendrickson wrote:
On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote:
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Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
For historical interest, here, minus the ones already covered, is Ted's
original Essential Freight Cars list from 2 years ago. 9. ATSF Bx-11/-12/-13 SS box cars (Westerfield) 11. X29/'23 ARA and other derivatives (Red Caboose, Sunshine, Yankee Clipper/F&C) 12. 1932 ARA box car (Sunshine, Yankee Clipper) 13. 1937 AAR box car (IMWX, Red Caboose) 14. Mod. 1937 AAR box car (Intermountain, Sunshine) 15. MP Howe truss SS box cars (Sunshine) 16. Southern DS auto cars and 36' truss rod uframe cars (Sunshine and Westerfield, respectively) 17. Wabash SS auto cars (Funaro) 18. ARA SS cars - B&M, SAL B-3/-4/-5 (Funaro on B&M and Funaro? on SAL) 19. Anthracite theme - DL&W ARA DS cars and LV 'wrong way' cars (Sunshine and Funaro) 20. PRR X31 et al (Bowser, Central Hobbies, Sunshine) 21. Milw ribbed side and B&O wagontops (plus sidebar on PRR X37 - all Sunshine or Central Hobbies on Wagontop) 22. PRR GS gons and derivatives and NYC USRA type rebuilt or built new steel gons (Sunshine and Funaro) 24. SFRD 'ARA' and 'USRA' type rebuilt reefers (Sunshine and Intermountain) 27. NYC USRA design steel box cars (Westerfield) 30. ATSF box car rebuilds (non-USRA - Sunshine mini kit) 32. ACL 40' steel furniture cars (who will make this?) Jim Hayes Portland Oregon
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Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
On Apr 24, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:
forthcoming (these are ARA single sheathed cars) 11. X29/'23 ARA and other derivatives (Red Caboose, Sunshine, Yankeedone already... see alternate ARA single sheathed cars article 16. Southern DS auto cars and 36' truss rod uframe cars (Sunshine anddone under articles about Southern 36' truss rod cars and ARA double sheathed cars 17. Wabash SS auto cars (Funaro)done under ARA double sheathed cars 20. PRR X31 et al (Bowser, Central Hobbies, Sunshine)done under ARA double sheathed cars 32. ACL 40' steel furniture cars (who will make this?)Regards, Ted Culotta Speedwitch Media 100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402 info@... www.speedwitch.com (650) 787-1912
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Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!
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And how about X29Bs. There are rumors that F&C will do one this year. It appears that C&BT is long forgotten. regards, Andy Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Thomas M. Olsen Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 10:48 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Essential freight cars in RMC It would be nice to see if we can get a resin kit maker such as Al Westerfield or Martin Lofton to do the PRR K8 stock cars as a flat kit. This was the last wood body car that the Penn had prior to their converting the X31 box cars into steel stock cars. It was also almost as numerous as the ubiquitous K7a's which Broadway Limited brought out recently. I am sure if Al or Martin did the K8's that we would not have had the problems that came with the BLI K7a's. Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 tmolsen@... Richard Hendrickson wrote: On Apr 22, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Clyde Williams wrote: ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/9MtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links
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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
Andy Miller wrote:
If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!Nonsense! If you remember Ted Culotta's Introduction to "The Essential Freight Car" series on page 79 of the April 2003 RMC, "Essential Freight Cars ... should be present on almost ALL steam/diesel transition or first or early second diesel-era layouts ...." Since when could a PRR stock car appear on RR's on the West Coast in any quantity to justify a western RR modeler to waste his time and resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of other freight cars which would be far more appropriate to appear on his layout? I'm not saying that a PRR K8 is not an appropriate prototype to model, but it would be foolish for a manufacturer to rely on many Western RR modelers to buy a K8 model. The market would be restricted to eastern RR modelers including the SPF's. A boxcar such as the X29 is different than a stock car because of the variety of commodities that a boxcar could carry versus the relatively few which a stock car could. Boxcars regularly traveled to all parts of the nation, and when they were emptied, a large percentage of them were reloaded, and sent elsewhere. Stock Cars were essentially a rural to urban movement with few possible return loads. Also, LA slaughterhouses (or feedlots) did not buy much livestock from Pennsylvania. The last paragraph of Ted's introduction said "This series will not focus on cars that were not widely interchanged, however. An example would be the N&W H2/H2a/H3 hoppers which were built in vast numbers, but tended to stay on the home road." I beg to differ with Ted's statement that N&W's hoppers were mostly "stay at homes." For most years in the 1940-60 Era, the daily average of cars on the N&W were fewer that the number of hoppers the N&W owned. which infers that N&W hoppers were interchanged with other railroads (in 1947, the N&W delivered over 195,000 loaded cars to the PRR at Columbus OH: - most of them N&W hoppers - because of Car Service Rule C-411, it can be assumed that any loaded N&W hopper east of the Rockies was loaded with coal from N&W's territory). The movement of N&W hoppers off-road, however, was mostly restricted to nearby roads. The occasional N&W hopper did go over UP's Sherman Hill, but it was a rarity - estimated to be about one every 2,000 freight cars. Now if a Sherman Hill modeler has 2,000 cars on his layout, he may be justified in having one N&W hopper. The use of the adjective "essential" may be unfortunate which some have applied locally or regionally. A better adjective may be "universal" or "ubiquitous." In the context of Ted's series, the cars to be discussed were, in large part, designs developed either by individual RR's (or private car lines) themselves, by an association committee, or a manufacturer. These designs had to be produced in large enough quantities so as any modeler could justify having them on his layout regardless of where the prototype for that layout was located. Once in service, cars of the particular design could appear in revenue service on any railroad - real railroads, unlike some modelers, usually hauled cars for a purpose. Most of the series that Ted has discussed have been boxcars for good reason. Other cars within car types which could be discussed would be eastern fixed bottom gons in steel service, tank cars owned generically by the large car lines and long haul produce reefers. General Flat Cars were also widely dispersed, but the total of these in service barely exceeded the number of X29's which were in service in 1947. Tim Gilbert
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ed_mines
--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:
..." Since when could a PRR stock car appear on RR's on the West Coast in any quantity to justify a western RR modeler to waste his time and resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of other freight cars which would be far more appropriate to appear on his layout? Tim, I agree, but is it possible that the K8 was a standard design used by other railroads too? Ambroid letters the cars for several different railroads. I've noticed that NKP and WP had some near identical stock cars; they certainly weren't neighbors. Regarding the statement that N&W's hoppers were mostly "stay at homes" I've seen photos of all hopper trains on the Erie consisting of PRR and NYC hoppers with an occasional N&W hopper. I assume that these trains were delivering bituminous coal. Ed
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Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
Tim,
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I'm sorry you are so down on Easterners, but the "poll" was for resin cars and I believe there are enough Pennsy fans alone to warrant a PRR car not yet available except in brass. regards, Andy Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim Gilbert Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 11:40 AM To: STMFC@... Cc: Ted Culotta; bills@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Essential freight cars in RMC Andy Miller wrote: If this is a poll, you have my vote. Hear, hear, K8s, K8s, K8s!Nonsense! If you remember Ted Culotta's Introduction to "The Essential Freight Car" series on page 79 of the April 2003 RMC, "Essential Freight Cars ... should be present on almost ALL steam/diesel transition or first or early second diesel-era layouts ...." Since when could a PRR stock car appear on RR's on the West Coast in any quantity to justify a western RR modeler to waste his time and resources on a PRR stock car at the expense of other freight cars which would be far more appropriate to appear on his layout? I'm not saying that a PRR K8 is not an appropriate prototype to model, but it would be foolish for a manufacturer to rely on many Western RR modelers to buy a K8 model. The market would be restricted to eastern RR modelers including the SPF's. A boxcar such as the X29 is different than a stock car because of the variety of commodities that a boxcar could carry versus the relatively few which a stock car could. Boxcars regularly traveled to all parts of the nation, and when they were emptied, a large percentage of them were reloaded, and sent elsewhere. Stock Cars were essentially a rural to urban movement with few possible return loads. Also, LA slaughterhouses (or feedlots) did not buy much livestock from Pennsylvania. The last paragraph of Ted's introduction said "This series will not focus on cars that were not widely interchanged, however. An example would be the N&W H2/H2a/H3 hoppers which were built in vast numbers, but tended to stay on the home road." I beg to differ with Ted's statement that N&W's hoppers were mostly "stay at homes." For most years in the 1940-60 Era, the daily average of cars on the N&W were fewer that the number of hoppers the N&W owned. which infers that N&W hoppers were interchanged with other railroads (in 1947, the N&W delivered over 195,000 loaded cars to the PRR at Columbus OH: - most of them N&W hoppers - because of Car Service Rule C-411, it can be assumed that any loaded N&W hopper east of the Rockies was loaded with coal from N&W's territory). The movement of N&W hoppers off-road, however, was mostly restricted to nearby roads. The occasional N&W hopper did go over UP's Sherman Hill, but it was a rarity - estimated to be about one every 2,000 freight cars. Now if a Sherman Hill modeler has 2,000 cars on his layout, he may be justified in having one N&W hopper. The use of the adjective "essential" may be unfortunate which some have applied locally or regionally. A better adjective may be "universal" or "ubiquitous." In the context of Ted's series, the cars to be discussed were, in large part, designs developed either by individual RR's (or private car lines) themselves, by an association committee, or a manufacturer. These designs had to be produced in large enough quantities so as any modeler could justify having them on his layout regardless of where the prototype for that layout was located. Once in service, cars of the particular design could appear in revenue service on any railroad - real railroads, unlike some modelers, usually hauled cars for a purpose. Most of the series that Ted has discussed have been boxcars for good reason. Other cars within car types which could be discussed would be eastern fixed bottom gons in steel service, tank cars owned generically by the large car lines and long haul produce reefers. General Flat Cars were also widely dispersed, but the total of these in service barely exceeded the number of X29's which were in service in 1947. Tim Gilbert ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/9MtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links
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