Walthers is listing a Life Like Proto 2000 - 10,000 gallon INSULATED tank car kit as a future release. Anyone know when this is expected to be released ?

Some of the cars announced match up to photos in the ACF book.

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
trlink@...
www.canadasouthern.com

Terry Link wrote

Walthers is listing a Life Like Proto 2000 - 10,000 gallon INSULATED
tank car kit as a future release. Anyone know when this is expected
to be released ?
Some of the cars announced match up to photos in the ACF book.

Sinclair SDRX #26148 is a correct number for a 10,000 gallon
insulated tank car, so it looks like you're right! There is a
drawing on page 223 of the ACF book of a 10k Type 21 insulated
tank. I am guessing that is what Proto2000 will do to save on
tooling.

Which ACF book are you referring to? I assumed Kaminski's one by
Signature Press but that page number puts it in the gondola section in
mine.

Jerry Glow

FYI,
We expect to ship the kits (2 road numbers per paint scheme) in December 2005 and 2 more road numbers for each paint scheme as RTR in March 2006. The underframe will be the same as our previous Type 21 tank cars, with AB brakes. The drawing on page 223 and the bottom of page 222 of the Kominski Tank Cars book (Not the Kominski AC&F book) is accurate as to the design except the K brakes, but be aware that this drawing is to scale for the 8,000 gallon version, we will be doing the 10,000 gallon version. The correct dimensions for the 10,000 gallon version are listed in the table in the center of the drawing. Please also note that most of the tank dimensions are inside dimensions of the tank, not outside dimensions of the tank with insulation & jacketing. Tooling has begun and we expect to have first shots by June 1. Paint schemes and number series will be:
TCX 9350-9389 Aluminum tank/ Black underframe, black billboard "TEXACO"
SDRX 26100-26199 Black tank & underframe,aluminum billboard "SINCLAIR"
MPCX (late 50's-early 60's) Black tank & underframe, white reporting marks
GATX 37100-37449 Black tank & underframe, white reporting marks
MPCX 1500-1649 (Post WWII) White tank/ black underframe, black reporting marks
EORX 1129-1149 Black tank & underframe, white Cities Service trefoil logo
UNDEC Black tank & underframe

I'll post photos as the parts become available.

Larry Grubb,
Life-Like Products

CASO <caso@...> wrote:
Walthers is listing a Life Like Proto 2000 - 10,000 gallon INSULATED tank
car kit as a future release. Anyone know when this is expected to be
released ?

Some of the cars announced match up to photos in the ACF book.

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
trlink@...
www.canadasouthern.com



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Larry;
This is great news. We have needed a good insulated tank for many
years.

By chance, will any of those tanks come with a dome platform? Are there
plans to pursue any other tank variations, or is this a one-shot deal?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

Eldon,
The dome platforms will be as shown in the Kominsky drawing, just a plank on the sides of the tank midway between the handrail and the dome. As to future type 21 tank car variations, we have looked into many of them but the difficulty is in finding a physical design that is consistent for 6 paint schemes in the era of AB brakes. A more likely (Though not yet decided on) approach for us would be to back-date the brakes to the original K brakes and produce the three tanks we currently have (8,000, 10,000 & 10,000 insulated) in earlier paint schemes. Producing a resin mini-kit for converting our undec 10,000 gallon insulated kit to one with a platform with railings that surround the dome (such as the Tarvia car that Jerry Stewart is lusting after) might be a good project for someone to do and I would be happy to provide any help I can to any interested parties, as the chance of our doing this particular variation is close to nil.

Larry Grubb
"Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@...> wrote:
Larry;
This is great news. We have needed a good insulated tank for many
years.

By chance, will any of those tanks come with a dome platform? Are there
plans to pursue any other tank variations, or is this a one-shot deal?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...>
wrote:

Larry;
This is great news. We have needed a good insulated tank for many
years.

By chance, will any of those tanks come with a dome platform? Are

there

plans to pursue any other tank variations, or is this a one-shot

deal?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

And will the proper time periods for these cars P&L schemes be

provided?
Bill Williams

Larry;
Thanks for the reply. I am sure that you have difficulty finding
ANYTHING consistent for more than a couple roads, when dealing with tank
cars.

Have you ever contemplated the idea of doing any other variations that
might fit on that same tank and underframe, such as the acid tanks or
others with unusual dome configurations? Or is that such a radical
departure on the tooling that it would not be worth the cost/effort? Is
the cutoff that 6-road/owner requirement?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

Bill and/or Clyde,
Other than the time period information regarding the two MPCX paint schemes that I provided in my earlier post, I can tell you that they are all in the time period of AB brakes. If you need more accurate information than that, perhaps Richard will be kind enough to post the information he has, which is more thorough than mine as regards first appearances and cutoff dates for each scheme.
Larry

Clyde Williams <billdgoat@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...>
wrote:

Larry;
This is great news. We have needed a good insulated tank for many
years.

By chance, will any of those tanks come with a dome platform? Are

there

plans to pursue any other tank variations, or is this a one-shot

deal?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

And will the proper time periods for these cars P&L schemes be

provided?
Bill Williams





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Eldon,
I realize this may be heresy to PRR fans everywhere, but we find that producing a model in only one or two roads, even such as PRR, does not provide us with sufficient quantities to amortize the tooling costs. Even though most folks who are on this list know that there are some unique PRR designs that you should have on your roster no matter where you model, those folks are only a small percentage of the total market for our products. There are still a lot of modellers west of the Mississippi who think they don't need anything PRR. Until such time as the education of prototype modelling more thoroughly permeates the hobby, we will need to restrict our selections to prototypes with a geographic mix of paint schemes. I think the hobby is heading in the direction of the folks on this list, but it's not there yet. Yes, the cutoff is typically 6 paint schemes that are appropriate for post-WWII or later, with good geographic distribution.
Larry


"Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@...> wrote:
Larry;
Thanks for the reply. I am sure that you have difficulty finding
ANYTHING consistent for more than a couple roads, when dealing with tank
cars.

Have you ever contemplated the idea of doing any other variations that
might fit on that same tank and underframe, such as the acid tanks or
others with unusual dome configurations? Or is that such a radical
departure on the tooling that it would not be worth the cost/effort? Is
the cutoff that 6-road/owner requirement?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

Jerry Glow wrote:

Which ACF book are you referring to? I assumed Kaminski's one by
Signature Press but that page number puts it in the gondola section in
mine.

That would be Ed's book on AC&F tank cars, separate from the AC&F company history volume.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Larry Grubb <larry450sl@y...> wrote:

Eldon,
I realize this may be heresy to PRR fans everywhere, but we find

that producing a model in only one or two roads, even such as PRR,
does not provide us with sufficient quantities to amortize the
tooling costs. Even though most folks who are on this list know that
there are some unique PRR designs that you should have on your roster
no matter where you model, those folks are only a small percentage of
the total market for our products. There are still a lot of modellers
west of the Mississippi who think they don't need anything PRR. Until
such time as the education of prototype modelling more thoroughly
permeates the hobby, we will need to restrict our selections to
prototypes with a geographic mix of paint schemes. I think the hobby
is heading in the direction of the folks on this list, but it's not
there yet. Yes, the cutoff is typically 6 paint schemes that are
appropriate for post-WWII or later, with good geographic distribution.

Larry

Thanks, we now have some much needed 104 cars for CS2 service?

Take note if you have any of the following industries on your layout:

http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/carbondi.htm

I fully understand the six road name deal, but I just gotta
ask....can y'all explain the best one yet: NYC subway cars????? Road
names? Areas covered by geography? Yankees......

Not sure where the whole PRR comment is going, go back and re-read
Eld(E)n's post: He asks about some much needed varriations of tank
cars, most dealing with simple dome and detail changes, nothing to do
with PRR.

Along with Elden's extensive tank car work that he sent me a while
back, a friend and I are coming up with a bunch of tank cars in
chemical service from pictures taken all over Tennessee (granted,
most were GATC cars, not ACF however) with some funky narrow but tall
domes. Nothing out there is close unfortunately.

OK, so with some changes, you may find some different road names.
But once again, from a marketing standpoint, the release of six black
tank cars (yawn) with tiny white lettering ending in X including one
for some chemical company in Alabama that had a fleet of three cars
is not going to get the non-prototype guys going for their wallets
like cars in white, orange, sliver, Royal Dutch Shell yellow, etc.

However......

Your mention of being willing to work with a resin caster or the like
and to assist on some of these minor varrations does have a lot of
merit, and is a very interesting idea to say the least. Question:
Will undec cars or parts be available, and for a long enough period
to allow for such a market?

Food for thought, but this is an interesting direction to say the
least!

Cordially-

Garrett Rea
Nashville TN

Garrett W. Rea wrote:

But once again, from a marketing standpoint, the release of six black
tank cars (yawn) with tiny white lettering ending in X . . .

Um, not modeling the prototype any more, Garrett?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Garrett Rea sez:

But once again, from a marketing standpoint, the release of six black
tank cars (yawn) with tiny white lettering ending in X including one
for some chemical company in Alabama that had a fleet of three cars
is not going to get the non-prototype guys going for their wallets
like cars in white, orange, sliver, Royal Dutch Shell yellow, etc.

Uh, Garrett...black tank cars with tiny white lettering ending in X is
what we want - by the case load.

Shawn Beckert

Garret,
The answer to the question of "Why Subway Cars" is that a distributor put up the tooling money so we did not have to risk ours. He turned out to be right, and we have sold a ton of them.

"The whole PRR comment" wasn't going anywhere, and it was not intended as an insult in any way. Eldon asked about designs unique to only one or two roads, and I explained why that kind of thing is difficult for us to produce at a profit, despite the fact that it makes sense to do so from a prototype modelling standpoint. I used PRR as an example, not an insult. Eldon, if I offended you, I'm sorry.

I am not a Yankee, I am a midwesterner.

Your statement that black tank cars with simple reporting marks do not appeal to our customers is incorrect. We sold far more plain-jane cars than we sold Easter Egg cars, even though we produced more Easter-egg schemes than we did plain-janes.

I have worked with resin manufacturers in the past to produce parts for modifying our products and will happily continue to do so whenever it does not interfere with our own plans.

"Will undec cars be available? Yes, as I stated in my previous post.

"For a long enough time to allow for such a market?"(Part1) That of course depends totally on how fast they sell through. It is in our best interest to make as many cars as we can sell, we do not knowingly produce shortages, we make to order, the same as every other China manufacturer. We do not have the climate-controlled warehouse facilities needed to keep items in stock for long periods of time. This used to be done by distributors but they did not find it to be profitable and stopped doing it.

"For a long enough time to allow for such a market" (Part 2) One of the reasons I mentioned the resin mini-kit at this time was in the hope that it may be possible to introduce the resin kits at or near the same time we introduce our cars. I think this would be beneficial to all concerned, us, the resin kit maker, and the customer.

Garret, I have not met you in person so I may be mistaking your attitude for arrogance when it is in fact good-natured kidding. When I post regarding Life-Like Products, I have an obligation to stick to facts and leave my personal opinions out of it. I would appreciate it if you could do the same until we get to know each other better.

Larry
"Garrett W. Rea" <Garrett.Rea@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., Larry Grubb <larry450sl@y...> wrote:

Eldon,
I realize this may be heresy to PRR fans everywhere, but we find

that producing a model in only one or two roads, even such as PRR,
does not provide us with sufficient quantities to amortize the
tooling costs. Even though most folks who are on this list know that
there are some unique PRR designs that you should have on your roster
no matter where you model, those folks are only a small percentage of
the total market for our products. There are still a lot of modellers
west of the Mississippi who think they don't need anything PRR. Until
such time as the education of prototype modelling more thoroughly
permeates the hobby, we will need to restrict our selections to
prototypes with a geographic mix of paint schemes. I think the hobby
is heading in the direction of the folks on this list, but it's not
there yet. Yes, the cutoff is typically 6 paint schemes that are
appropriate for post-WWII or later, with good geographic distribution.

Larry

Thanks, we now have some much needed 104 cars for CS2 service?

Take note if you have any of the following industries on your layout:

http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/carbondi.htm

I fully understand the six road name deal, but I just gotta
ask....can y'all explain the best one yet: NYC subway cars????? Road
names? Areas covered by geography? Yankees......

Not sure where the whole PRR comment is going, go back and re-read
Eld(E)n's post: He asks about some much needed varriations of tank
cars, most dealing with simple dome and detail changes, nothing to do
with PRR.

Along with Elden's extensive tank car work that he sent me a while
back, a friend and I are coming up with a bunch of tank cars in
chemical service from pictures taken all over Tennessee (granted,
most were GATC cars, not ACF however) with some funky narrow but tall
domes. Nothing out there is close unfortunately.

OK, so with some changes, you may find some different road names.
But once again, from a marketing standpoint, the release of six black
tank cars (yawn) with tiny white lettering ending in X including one
for some chemical company in Alabama that had a fleet of three cars
is not going to get the non-prototype guys going for their wallets
like cars in white, orange, sliver, Royal Dutch Shell yellow, etc.

However......

Your mention of being willing to work with a resin caster or the like
and to assist on some of these minor varrations does have a lot of
merit, and is a very interesting idea to say the least. Question:
Will undec cars or parts be available, and for a long enough period
to allow for such a market?

Food for thought, but this is an interesting direction to say the
least!

Cordially-

Garrett Rea
Nashville TN





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the cutoff is typically 6 paint schemes that are appropriate for post-WWII

or later, with good geographic distribution.<

Larry,
If you would throw in a few pre-WWII schemes you would arrive at the
number 6 a little quicker<VBG>.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:

Garrett W. Rea wrote:

But once again, from a marketing standpoint, the release of six

black

tank cars (yawn) with tiny white lettering ending in X . . .

Um, not modeling the prototype any more, Garrett?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history

What the heck is that remark supposed to mean? Obviously you did not
read the rest of my post? I am "a pig in slop" about these tank cars
that we need for CS2, especially since we are working on a layout
that had a rayon plant and CS2 plant in the area at one time, and
several other locations in Tennessee that used CS2 for assorted
processes.

This was my point to the above: While we all would be hot for any
little varriations and need about 500 black tank cars to every one in
some non-black color, to the general market, they will have little
appeal. Look at yellow Royal Dutch Shell cars. Almost every model
and toy maker in the US and Europe have offered them. Nice, yes, but
for most of us, they have limited use.

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN

Hi Larry et al:

The answer to the question of "Why Subway Cars" is that a

distributor put up the tooling money so we did not have to risk ours.
He turned out to be right, and we have sold a ton of them.

Cool. I was wondering why they did not fit in the "six road name
policy".

I am not a Yankee, I am a midwesterner.

Why I put Yankee.... is due to the excellent market for Yankee
items. I am a midwesterner too afterall.

Your statement that black tank cars with simple reporting marks do

not appeal to our customers is incorrect. We sold far more plain-jane
cars than we sold Easter Egg cars, even though we produced more
Easter-egg schemes than we did plain-janes.

Really? Mia Culpa on that one. I have had others that have assisted
with the industry tell me that. For one, I have a small fleet of
black cars here. Now, if we could get some of the guys in Europe to
get away from them, but that is a topic for another list.

"Will undec cars be available? Yes, as I stated in my previous post.

Yes, saw that, my question was longevity due to China production.

"For a long enough time to allow for such a market?"(Part1) That of

course depends totally on how fast they sell through. It is in our
best interest to make as many cars as we can sell, we do not
knowingly produce shortages, we make to order, the same as every
other China manufacturer.

Fully understood on the logistics. There are a lot of parts that you
guys do (gondola ends and brake levers, diesel bits) I would like to
see available as parts sold in baggies actually...but understand why
that does not happen.

"For a long enough time to allow for such a market" (Part 2) One of

the reasons I mentioned the resin mini-kit at this time was in the
hope that it may be possible to introduce the resin kits at or near
the same time we introduce our cars. I think this would be beneficial
to all concerned, us, the resin kit maker, and the customer.

Agreed, and what I posted??? One of the better ideas, allows you to
keep your large runs and give us (modellers) the options we want.

Garret, I have not met you in person so I may be mistaking your

attitude for arrogance when it is in fact good-natured kidding.

I am afraid you mis-read me, or I mis-wrote the post. My whole point
was total agreement with you that you (LifeLike) cannot give us every
option on everything, but the fact that you are willing to help the
smaller guy is something needed in the hobby. Also the fact that you
are willing to do this, discuss this option, and OPENLY post it is a
welcome breath of air.

Not sure where all the negative vibes are coming from?

Heck, I am getting posts from people about the fact that we need
black cars which I stated we do need in my post????

IN fact, this insulated 10K car is one that is much needed for a lot
of industries outsie of petroleum and I am tickled to have it coming.
In fact Larry, if you contact me off list, I have a photo you might
appreciate if you do offer the K brake version of the car.

When I post regarding Life-Like Products, I have an obligation to

stick to facts and leave my personal opinions out of it. I would
appreciate it if you could do the same until we get to know each
other better.

Understood fully. Please contact me off list if you have further
concerns or take this as some sort of stab. It was never intended
that way, and I am not sure how you even took it that way or even as
a joke, but that is the problem with e-mail.

Cordially-

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN

Garrett W. Rea wrote:

This was my point to the above: While we all would be hot for any
little varriations and need about 500 black tank cars to every one in
some non-black color, to the general market, they will have little
appeal.

Well, I understand this point, but Larry Grubb (who actually is in the business) says you're wrong,

Look at yellow Royal Dutch Shell cars. Almost every model
and toy maker in the US and Europe have offered them. Nice, yes, but
for most of us, they have limited use.

Good example. The scheme is bogus. Talk about limited.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I think you're missing Garrett's point. We prototype junkies tend to
buy these things by the dozen and then when we have what we need we
stop.

The vesties buy tend to buy the pretty colored one at a time.

So more of the black ones get sold to dealers up front. The colored
ones sell but over time. So the maufacturer ends up discounting them
to get rid of them.

I bet if you did a pretty colored car of the month club, well, maybe
not by that name, the great vestie rabble would go and subscribe to
it with abandon.

Eric Petersson


Tony Thompson wrote:


"Well, I understand this point, but Larry Grubb (who actually is
in the business) says you're wrong,"



Garrett W. Rea wrote:

This was my point to the above: While we all would be hot for any
little varriations and need about 500 black tank cars to every one

in

some non-black color, to the general market, they will have little
appeal.