Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)


Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Deimling" <gene48@c...> wrote:

Greenville Car Company built fifty 50-ton cars for the Erie in
July
1934.
Indeed, and these cars are shown in the 1940 Cyc. The description
says they were for cement service. This makes me very curious.
Erie certainly did not serve any cement mills in the Lehigh District
of eastern Pennsylvania. I don't think Erie served any cement mills
elsewhere, but I'm happy to be corrected on this.

So, why would Erie order covered hoppers? My theory: zinc ore
service from NJ Zinc mines in Ogdensburg and Franklin, NJ to its
smelter in Palmerton, PA. Erie served the mines via its then (in
1934) subsidiary NYS&W. There's photo evidence of the cars in
service there.

Schuyler, you got your ears on? Anything you can add to this?


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Behalf Of Jerry Dziedzic
Subject: [STMFC] Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)


Schuyler, you got your ears on? Anything you can add to this?
Yes, I'm here, and I have to say this is a question I've been asking for years. Right now, I don't know.

SGL


bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>
 

Jerry,

Why covered hoppers? Extrapolating from a Baltlimore and Ohio
Magazine, June 1940 article that states, "An insistent demand for cars
for this type (covered hoppers) for hauling cement, for such large
projects as the Pennsylvania Super Highway, dam building, large
buildings, etc., prompted the Company to increase its fleet of such
cars", maybe it was the Pennsylvania Turnpike. This is pure
conjecture, but it may be a possibility for the Erie.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Dziedzic" <jerdz@e...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Deimling" <gene48@c...> wrote:

Greenville Car Company built fifty 50-ton cars for the Erie in
July
1934.
Indeed, and these cars are shown in the 1940 Cyc. The description
says they were for cement service. This makes me very curious.
Erie certainly did not serve any cement mills in the Lehigh District
of eastern Pennsylvania. I don't think Erie served any cement mills
elsewhere, but I'm happy to be corrected on this.

So, why would Erie order covered hoppers? My theory: zinc ore
service from NJ Zinc mines in Ogdensburg and Franklin, NJ to its
smelter in Palmerton, PA. Erie served the mines via its then (in
1934) subsidiary NYS&W. There's photo evidence of the cars in
service there.

Schuyler, you got your ears on? Anything you can add to this?


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


Schuyler Larrabee
 

And Jerry, a respected (at least by ME) source advised me today thus:

SL - For the Erie to effectively participate in traffic from the cement district it may have been useful to have Erie cars
in a pool administered by one of the origin railroads. While the DL&W was obviously a competitor on some traffic the L&NE
clearly was not. In the age of regulation even DL&W-Erie joint line routes existed. Today joint routes involving erstwhile
competitors are still common. Even today it is not uncommon for railroads other than the origin railroad to supply equipment
for repetitive multi-road movements. M J Connor

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of bdg1210
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 12:36 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Jerry,

Why covered hoppers? Extrapolating from a Baltlimore and
Ohio Magazine, June 1940 article that states, "An insistent
demand for cars for this type (covered hoppers) for hauling
cement, for such large projects as the Pennsylvania Super
Highway, dam building, large buildings, etc., prompted the
Company to increase its fleet of such cars", maybe it was the
Pennsylvania Turnpike. This is pure conjecture, but it may be
a possibility for the Erie.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Dziedzic" <jerdz@e...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Deimling" <gene48@c...> wrote:

Greenville Car Company built fifty 50-ton cars for the Erie in
July
1934.
Indeed, and these cars are shown in the 1940 Cyc. The description
says they were for cement service. This makes me very curious.
Erie certainly did not serve any cement mills in the Lehigh
District
of eastern Pennsylvania. I don't think Erie served any
cement mills
elsewhere, but I'm happy to be corrected on this.

So, why would Erie order covered hoppers? My theory: zinc
ore service
from NJ Zinc mines in Ogdensburg and Franklin, NJ to its smelter in
Palmerton, PA. Erie served the mines via its then (in
1934) subsidiary NYS&W. There's photo evidence of the cars
in service
there.

Schuyler, you got your ears on? Anything you can add to this?


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ




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raildata@...
 

I think there are two underlying fallacies in the current "hypotheses" about
early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of Pennsylvania near
Allentown. (There were also cement mills in central PA near Bellefonte)
Cement was widely produced all over the country. There was a mill at Hoe's Cave on
the D&H noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet hauled on the
Erie. There well may have been cement mills on the western part of the Erie.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement. Another liklet commodity
would have been glass sand carried to the Corning glass works. The early Genreal
Electirc cars were used to haul sand for glass making and Corning to this day
gets the sand in covered hoppers.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@v...> wrote:

SL - For the Erie to effectively participate in traffic from the
cement district it may have been useful to have Erie cars
in a pool administered by one of the origin railroads. While the
DL&W was obviously a competitor on some traffic the L&NE
clearly was not. In the age of regulation even DL&W-Erie joint
line routes existed. Today joint routes involving erstwhile
competitors are still common. Even today it is not uncommon for
railroads other than the origin railroad to supply equipment
for repetitive multi-road movements. M J Connor
You're right -- we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the cars
were ordered for a pool. If I were a cement company executive in
the early thirties, contemplating new markets or distribution
channels, I'd be thinking about bulk moves to a Great Lakes port
like Buffalo in order to reach midwest markets more economically.
Maybe it was a far-sighted Erie traffic manager. So, an L&NE-Erie
route would make sense. But I'm far from convinced.

In 1934, L&NE (and also DL&W) rostered only limited numbers of cars
of their own, and all were rebuilds of open hoppers. ACF's first
deliveries of their 1790 cu ft cars weren't made until 1937.

It seems unusual that Erie would be the pioneer for a new technology
in these circumstances. If I were a traffic manager negotiating
with a pool candidate in these circumstances, I'd say "you go
first." But that's me.

More questions. If the cars were indeed intended for cement
service, why did they bump down to ore service on a subsidiary line
(which, by the way, the Erie was draining of cash and otherwise
neglecting) within five years of delivery? I don't see anything
distinguishing the Greenville cars from competing designs. It's not
apparent that they would be unsatisfactory in cement service.

Do any listers know if Erie served a cement terminal in Buffalo in
the early thirties?


Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, raildata@a... wrote:
I think there are two underlying fallacies in the
current "hypotheses" about
early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of
Pennsylvania near
Allentown. (There were also cement mills in central PA near
Bellefonte)
Cement was widely produced all over the country. There was a mill
at Hoe's Cave on
the D&H noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet
hauled on the
Erie. There well may have been cement mills on the western part of
the Erie.

You're right, Chuck. This was a question we posted: where were
cement mills located on the Erie?

D&H might have been another candidate for pool cars. However, as
for the L&NE pool we were hypothesizing, it seems the originating
road, not Erie, would be more likely to pioneer a new car design.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement.
The 1940 Cyc describes the cars as cement cars.

I'm glad to see another person join this discussion. I was tempted
go off-line with Schuyler, because the STMFC discussion seemed to be
confined to only the two of us. I decided to try one more post to
see if we could attract others, so welcome aboard!


Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jerry Dziedzic

it seems the originating
road, not Erie, would be more likely to pioneer a new car design.
Ah, not to distract from the main topic here . . .

That's not quite a fair characterization of the ERIE. The ERIE was first in many aspects of railroading.

Chas Minot for starters, with the first safe operation by telegraphic train orders.
The first all-steel passenger car
Truc-Train (PRR was a me-too on that.)

Many many others.

Hrrrumph!

SGL


Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of raildata@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 12:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

I think there are two underlying fallacies in the current
"hypotheses" about early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of
Pennsylvania near Allentown. (There were also cement mills
in central PA near Bellefonte) Cement was widely produced all
over the country. There was a mill at Hoe's Cave on the D&H
noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet
hauled on the Erie. There well may have been cement mills on
the western part of the Erie.
Indeed, I seem to recall cement service around Buffalo, but don't have any documentation . . .yet.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement. Another
liklet commodity would have been glass sand carried to the
Corning glass works. The early Genreal Electirc cars were
used to haul sand for glass making and Corning to this day
gets the sand in covered hoppers.
I was "sure" that these came lettered "Cement" from the builder, but checking the print I have sure says that's not so. You
may be right, Chuck.

SGL

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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--------------------------------------------------------------
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Doug Brown <brown194@...>
 

The caption in the 1940 CBC says "for cement lading".

Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
raildata@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:39 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

I think there are two underlying fallacies in the current "hypotheses"
about
early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of Pennsylvania
near
Allentown. (There were also cement mills in central PA near Bellefonte)

Cement was widely produced all over the country. There was a mill at
Hoe's Cave on
the D&H noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet hauled
on the
Erie. There well may have been cement mills on the western part of the
Erie.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement. Another liklet commodity

would have been glass sand carried to the Corning glass works. The early
Genreal
Electirc cars were used to haul sand for glass making and Corning to
this day
gets the sand in covered hoppers.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO









Yahoo! Groups Links