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P&LE gons
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jerryglow2
In a recent discussion concerning P&LE Greenville design gons, someone
pointed out that they had ladders instead of grabs. A pic http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/ple2411.html shows this on a 2000 series car. Do the 40000 series gons (which P2K are lettered) have this feature also? Jerry Glow |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Jerry and all;
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I believe every photo I have ever seen of an NYC system Greenville-type gon (incl all those P&LE ones) had ladders on the sides instead of grabs. The P&LE 2000-2999, 8000-8499, 9000-10499, 10500-10999, 11000-11499, 12000-12999, 13000-13999, 16000-16499, 41000-41999 series had steel floors. I am sorry that I cannot tell you which ones had nailable steel flooring, but the majority did not, as the majority of steel floors were riveted sheet. 40000-40999, 43000-43999 had wood flooring; perhaps LifeLike's rationale for having their cars numbered in those series? The steel flooring was somewhat unique looking, so creating this car would be best with photos. I am sorry I can't be definitive about all the details, as I do not have my P&LE gon book at hand. There are a lot of neat variations within this fleet. The coil cars alone would make a major modeling project. I remember noting that many drop end gons had their ends fixed later on, and had jury-rigged ladders added to the ends. There were also coke container gons, and many other specialty gons, created within this big fleet. They went all over the country... Does anyone know a good source for decals covering the late (50's) lettering scheme? Elden Gatwood -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of jerryglow2 Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:09 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] P&LE gons In a recent discussion concerning P&LE Greenville design gons, someone pointed out that they had ladders instead of grabs. A pic http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/ple2411.html shows this on a 2000 series car. Do the 40000 series gons (which P2K are lettered) have this feature also? Jerry Glow Yahoo! Groups Links |
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jerryglow2
Thanks Elden. I have another photo in a book and it's the same 2000
series as the photo I linked so this confirmation helps a lot. I have a Jan '59 ORER so can check for floor and other variations. Jerry Glow --- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...> wrote: Jerry and all;type gon (incl all those P&LE ones) had ladders on the sides instead of |
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Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
All,
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I have a builder's photo of P&LE 41500 (12/40) and an in-service shot (Date unknown) of P&LE 13116 with grabirons, not ladders.I also have a builder's photo of P&LE 40000 (5/45) with ladders. Larry Grubb "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@...> wrote: Jerry and all; I believe every photo I have ever seen of an NYC system Greenville-type gon (incl all those P&LE ones) had ladders on the sides instead of grabs. The P&LE 2000-2999, 8000-8499, 9000-10499, 10500-10999, 11000-11499, 12000-12999, 13000-13999, 16000-16499, 41000-41999 series had steel floors. I am sorry that I cannot tell you which ones had nailable steel flooring, but the majority did not, as the majority of steel floors were riveted sheet. 40000-40999, 43000-43999 had wood flooring; perhaps LifeLike's rationale for having their cars numbered in those series? The steel flooring was somewhat unique looking, so creating this car would be best with photos. I am sorry I can't be definitive about all the details, as I do not have my P&LE gon book at hand. There are a lot of neat variations within this fleet. The coil cars alone would make a major modeling project. I remember noting that many drop end gons had their ends fixed later on, and had jury-rigged ladders added to the ends. There were also coke container gons, and many other specialty gons, created within this big fleet. They went all over the country... Does anyone know a good source for decals covering the late (50's) lettering scheme? Elden Gatwood -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of jerryglow2 Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:09 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] P&LE gons In a recent discussion concerning P&LE Greenville design gons, someone pointed out that they had ladders instead of grabs. A pic http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/ple2411.html shows this on a 2000 series car. Do the 40000 series gons (which P2K are lettered) have this feature also? Jerry Glow Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour |
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Larry Kline
I just posted a drawing for the P&LE 10500-10999 gon series in the STMFPH files section.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFPH/files The drawing shows the construction and rivet pattern for the riveted steel floor. There are interior photos that show the nailable steel and riveted steel floors in the Greenville gon article in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol 3, pp 52-67. Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Thank you, Larry! You are the best!
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Elden Gatwood -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of larry kline Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:27 AM To: STMFC list Subject: [STMFC] Re: P&LE gons I just posted a drawing for the P&LE 10500-10999 gon series in the STMFPH files section. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFPH/files The drawing shows the construction and rivet pattern for the riveted steel floor. There are interior photos that show the nailable steel and riveted steel floors in the Greenville gon article in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol 3, pp 52-67. Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Larry;
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Are those photos of 13116 and 41500 commercially available? I have never seen one equipped with grabs, and that opens up an interesting question; why the change? Are there any special features on those particular gons? What series' did you offer in P&LE paint? Did you ever do the later scheme with black paint and NYC-style lettering, or was it just the brown ones and the green PC/P&LE car? Elden Gatwood -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Larry Grubb Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:23 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] P&LE gons All, I have a builder's photo of P&LE 41500 (12/40) and an in-service shot (Date unknown) of P&LE 13116 with grabirons, not ladders.I also have a builder's photo of P&LE 40000 (5/45) with ladders. Larry Grubb "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@...> wrote: Jerry and all; I believe every photo I have ever seen of an NYC system Greenville-type gon (incl all those P&LE ones) had ladders on the sides instead of grabs. The P&LE 2000-2999, 8000-8499, 9000-10499, 10500-10999, 11000-11499, 12000-12999, 13000-13999, 16000-16499, 41000-41999 series had steel floors. I am sorry that I cannot tell you which ones had nailable steel flooring, but the majority did not, as the majority of steel floors were riveted sheet. 40000-40999, 43000-43999 had wood flooring; perhaps LifeLike's rationale for having their cars numbered in those series? The steel flooring was somewhat unique looking, so creating this car would be best with photos. I am sorry I can't be definitive about all the details, as I do not have my P&LE gon book at hand. There are a lot of neat variations within this fleet. The coil cars alone would make a major modeling project. I remember noting that many drop end gons had their ends fixed later on, and had jury-rigged ladders added to the ends. There were also coke container gons, and many other specialty gons, created within this big fleet. They went all over the country... Does anyone know a good source for decals covering the late (50's) lettering scheme? Elden Gatwood -----Original Message----- From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of jerryglow2 Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:09 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] P&LE gons In a recent discussion concerning P&LE Greenville design gons, someone pointed out that they had ladders instead of grabs. A pic http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/ple2411.html shows this on a 2000 series car. Do the 40000 series gons (which P2K are lettered) have this feature also? Jerry Glow Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Larry Kline
Elden, Larry and list,
I had not noticed that some of these gons had grabs rather than ladders before this thread started. In addition to the photos that Larry Grubb mentioned, I have two additional photos of P&LE Greenville gons with grabs rather than ladders. 1) An NMRA Library Ernest Stefan in service photo of 41731 ca. 1941. 2) A photo on p27 of the P&LE gon book, dated 11-15-63, of 13558. Interestingly, there is a photo on p30 of the P&LE gon book, dated 2-18-86, of 13567 with a 5 rung ladder. These photos, and the ones that Larry Grubb mentions, suggest that the 41000-41999 series gons (Despatch, 1940-41) and 13000-13999 series gons (Despatch, 1956-57) were built with grabs. Both of these series differed from the other P&LE 52 ft 6 in IL gons built in the 1940s and 1950s. The 41000 series had 13 side stakes, rather than 14 as on the Greenville design. The 13000 series had fixed ends and end ladders. See p27 of the P&LE gon book. The Railway Prototype Cyclopedia roster indicates that all of the other P&LE 52 ft 6 in IL drop end gons, built from 1945 through 1952, had ladders. Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA |
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Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
Elden,
I can send you copies of the photos (and other PLE gon photos I have) if you send me your address off-list. We did only the paint schemes you mentioned in PLE. Larry "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@...> wrote: Larry; Are those photos of 13116 and 41500 commercially available? I have never seen one equipped with grabs, and that opens up an interesting question; why the change? Are there any special features on those particular gons? What series' did you offer in P&LE paint? Did you ever do the later scheme with black paint and NYC-style lettering, or was it just the brown ones and the green PC/P&LE car? --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out! |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Larry K., Larry G., and all interested;
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I am sure that some of us did not know of the existence of non-Greenville type gons on the P&LE, at least as of the 50's. What do you think the story was on 13558 having grabs and 13567 having a ladder? Did they change during a production run, or was this some retrofitting measure? Thanks for all this valuable feedback! Elden -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of larry kline Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:15 PM To: STMFC list Subject: [STMFC] Re: P&LE gons Elden, Larry and list, I had not noticed that some of these gons had grabs rather than ladders before this thread started. In addition to the photos that Larry Grubb mentioned, I have two additional photos of P&LE Greenville gons with grabs rather than ladders. 1) An NMRA Library Ernest Stefan in service photo of 41731 ca. 1941. 2) A photo on p27 of the P&LE gon book, dated 11-15-63, of 13558. Interestingly, there is a photo on p30 of the P&LE gon book, dated 2-18-86, of 13567 with a 5 rung ladder. These photos, and the ones that Larry Grubb mentions, suggest that the 41000-41999 series gons (Despatch, 1940-41) and 13000-13999 series gons (Despatch, 1956-57) were built with grabs. Both of these series differed from the other P&LE 52 ft 6 in IL gons built in the 1940s and 1950s. The 41000 series had 13 side stakes, rather than 14 as on the Greenville design. The 13000 series had fixed ends and end ladders. See p27 of the P&LE gon book. The Railway Prototype Cyclopedia roster indicates that all of the other P&LE 52 ft 6 in IL drop end gons, built from 1945 through 1952, had ladders. Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Larry Kline
Elden Gatwood wrote:
What do you think the story was on 13558 having grabs and 13567 having a ladder? Did they change during a production run, or was this some retrofitting measure? I think the ladders were installed during rebuilding. There are photos of 3 rebuilt coil gons on pp 29-30 with 5 rung ladders Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Thanks, Larry. That makes sense.
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Thank you for all this help. Hope to see you at the meet! Elden -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of larry kline Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:32 PM To: STMFC list Subject: [STMFC] Re: P&LE gons Elden Gatwood wrote: What do you think the story was on 13558 having grabs and 13567 having a ladder? Did they change during a production run, or was this some retrofitting measure? I think the ladders were installed during rebuilding. There are photos of 3 rebuilt coil gons on pp 29-30 with 5 rung ladders Larry Kline Pittsburgh, PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links |
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bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>
Group,
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Thank you all for all the information. I am concluding that the kit as sold is very accurate including the grab irons and nailable floor for 1953. One last modeling question on this thread. How shold I weather the nailable steel floor. I am guessing rust, and gray (raw steel). Any thoughts? Regards, Bruce D. Griffin --- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...> wrote:
Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. |
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Bruce;
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One thing that I found interesting about real-life nailable steel floors is that the ones I have seen weathered more variably from "board" to "board" than a continuous piece of steel (i.e.; versus a continuous gon side, for example), probably due to the individual variability in steel properties and paint application. So, some of them exhibit that color change between panels similar to what you see on some boxcar sides. I did a nailable steel floor for one of my G29s I did for TKM. I can send you a pic, if you are interested. I added some of that variability by using pastel pencils. You may not like the effect, but then again.... Elden Gatwood -----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of bdg1210 Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:08 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: P&LE gons Group, Thank you all for all the information. I am concluding that the kit as sold is very accurate including the grab irons and nailable floor for 1953. One last modeling question on this thread. How shold I weather the nailable steel floor. I am guessing rust, and gray (raw steel). Any thoughts? Regards, Bruce D. Griffin --- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@h...> wrote: Thanks, Larry. That makes sense. Yahoo! Groups Links |
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