On May 24, 2005, at 1:31 PM, shile@... wrote:

Al Westerfield has a "new" technology that he is using on some turn
of the (20th) century inside stake coal gondolas that uses a lead
filled resin casting for an under frame component that will add
some weight to what would otherwise be quite an empty car without a
load. Perhaps this could be pursued for the basic body casting for
a flat. You would think a Harriman "standard" design might fit
his line well AND offer some uses into the 50's on UP and SP. Is
it total heresy to suggest a laser cut wood deck from someone like
Modeler's Choice to complete the package?

What brought this to mind was the CB&Q flatcar that Sunshine did
for one of the earlier Naperville meets that was quite light when
completed with not much space for weights.

My 2 cents.

Steve Hile

Steve,

Weight is definitely an issue with flat cars. My sunshine PRR F30A
is perhaps the lightest car I have ever seen and there was no way I
wanted to hide any of the beautiful underbody work. Obviously, metal
trucks help, and of course loads, but there is always that desire to
have a few empties too. Sitting at the crossing, waiting for a CSX
freight to go by on my way back from lunch today I was reminded that
the prototype has a similar problem, and as a consequence tends to
run empties at the end of the train.

As for laser cut decks... nice, yes, fast, yes, but it is also very
doable to plank your own, which is my new standard. Visually, I
think board by board is superior, since the individual board fit
tightly and their subtle shadings cause them to be delineated, unlike
the big grooves caused by the laser (sort of like the car siding
issue). To do the floors, I cut pieces to length, stain in leather
stain, and glue with thick ACC. It takes surprisingly little time to
do a deck this way. Oh yeah, start at each end and work towards the
middle. That way the board you trim to fit won't be the first one
you see (and anyway, the prototype used variable width boards many
times)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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Bruce wrote:

"Weight is definitely an issue with flat cars. My sunshine PRR F30A is perhaps the lightest car I
have ever seen and there was no way I wanted to hide any of the beautiful underbody work.
Obviously, metal trucks help, and of course loads, but there is always that desire to have a few
empties too. Sitting at the crossing, waiting for a CSX freight to go by on my way back from lunch
today I was reminded that the prototype has a similar problem, and as a consequence tends to
run empties at the end of the train."

What is the problem that model railroading has with multi media kits? The obvious solution is the do
a cast metal underframe to add weight to model kits yet we insist on doing them in resin or styrene.


Eric Petersson







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On May 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Eric wrote:

What is the problem that model railroading has with multi media kits? The obvious solution is the do
a cast metal underframe to add weight to model kits yet we insist on doing them in resin or styrene.

The solution is not so obvious to those who would make the metal castings. Speaking for the resin side of the house, there is already a significant investment (for a small sole proprietor) in both capital equipment and learning for a small return on investment (read: labor of love). To add the equipment to produce metal castings for gons, flats and hoppers, when they comprise a small part of a line of offerings is not a further wise investment in equipment and or the time to learn how to use them. You could outsource this segment, but no one would like resin kits that would be even more expensive.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Another solution for flat cars is to sandwich in a strip of lead between the
deck and the underbody details. This may entail gouging out space for it,
and in some cases there simply is not enough room no matter what you do, but
I have found it to really help get the weight up on flats and gondolas.

Tom Jones

Birdshot works for me. I weigh #7 or #8 shot (chosen for it's small size so
it "flows" well) on a digital scale, then Superglue it up in the under
frame. Unless you turn it upside down or look up thru a trestle, it's out of
sight!
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

On May 26, 2005, at 8:21 AM, Ted Culotta wrote:

To add the equipment to produce metal castings for gons, flats
and hoppers, when they comprise a small part of a line of offerings is
not a further wise investment in equipment and or the time to learn
how
to use them. You could outsource this segment, but no one would like
resin kits that would be even more expensive.

I refrained from answering the original suggestion, because I
consider cast metal to be inferior to resin to reproduce details...
however, I realized cast brass can in fact reproduce details quite
well. However, your response got me thinking... <DANGER!> In fact,
one can purchase relatively low temperature melting alloys from
sources like micro mark. These can be used in RTV molds such as we
use for resin. Additional investment consists of a ladle, blow torch
and protective goggles and gloves. For something like the F30A this
might be ideal - after all, the frame was cast on the prototype! The
down side would be in creating the complex shapes, although one could
use the same multi-piece approach Sunshine did. This MIGHT be an
approach for a simpler underframe, although I do not think that the
rivet detail on built-up underframes would come out nearly as well.
Another word of caution here. I know all this because I tried to
cast new frames for a locomotive. The metal was not nearly strong
enough for that application, however, it might well work for a
freight car.


On May 26, 2005, at 8:27 AM, Tom Jones III wrote:

Another solution for flat cars is to sandwich in a strip of lead
between the
deck and the underbody details. This may entail gouging out space
for it,
and in some cases there simply is not enough room no matter what
you do, but
I have found it to really help get the weight up on flats and
gondolas.

I considered this, but flat car decking is visible from the bottom,
and on my F30A I went "all the way" on the details <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
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The casting of low temp alloys in silicone moulds requires the same amount
of modeling skill and master making as would casting of resin. But, the
moulds don't last quite as long, and admittedly, unless some care is taken
with the casting process, the detail may not come out quite as good. I have
cast both in the same mould, however, and have found that it is possible to
achieve very good results with low temp alloys.

I guess those old Binkley and paper Athearn kits knew something - usually
the underframe was all cast zamac or other metal.

Tom Jones

On any flatcar with fish-belly side sills, I sacrifice almost all underbody detail (some of my flatcars have brake rods showing next to the trucks) in the interest of weight. Generally I have little trouble getting an empty car of this type up to the specifications of NMRA RP-20.5. It's those cars with the high, straight side sills - like the Tichy kit - that I find hard to weight. So far I have mostly fish-belly flatcars, and for UP and most Santa Fe steam-era flatcars that's fine.

so long,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
262-796-8776, ext. 461
Fax 262-796-1142
asperandeo@...

On May 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Eric wrote:

What is the problem that model railroading has with multi media kits?
The obvious solution is the do
a cast metal underframe to add weight to model kits yet we insist on
doing them in resin or styrene.

We don't all have a problem with multi-media kits. Have you looked at the approach we used for the Proto 2000 flat car? I may have gone a little overboard adding weight between the centersills (Byron Rose can tell you just how wrong this is) but even with that non-prototypical revision, the car is still not up to NMRA weight standards. Also, we cannot use lead in our manufacturing for health reasons, the heaviest approved metal in common use is zinc alloy (ZA). I would have liked to have done the deck and/or chassis in ZA, but the quality of detail (Thinness of deck edge and stake pockets) would have suffered.

Larry Grubb



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Why not bismuth?
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...> wrote:
Why not bismuth?
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


Well, Tony, is there a better alternative than ZA you are aware of?

Larry Grubb



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Larry Grubb wrote:

Well, Tony, is there a better alternative than ZA you are aware of?

If detail is an issue, you want something which is compounded so as to have minimal shrinkage on casting. If home production is the goal, it needs to be low-melting, both for simpler mold making and easy melting and handling. There are lots of low-temperature alloys, some designed for casting and some not. It is certainly possible to produce extremely accurate castings if someone wants to do so.
I personally am a member of the school which holds that underbody detail on flat cars is not essential, and for years have stuffed flat car underbodies with lead sheet so that I can run them empty. No glued-on loads for me (not in hoppers or gondolas, either).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
My question should be more accurately stated, are you aware of any alternatives to ZA that are commercially available for production in China that are heavier and yet have detail and shrinkage characteristics that are at least as good as the ZA we now use? I understand you have experience in metallurgy, but I don't know if it extends to the particular area of expertise above.
Larry Grubb

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
Larry Grubb wrote:

Well, Tony, is there a better alternative than ZA you are aware of?

If detail is an issue, you want something which is compounded so
as to have minimal shrinkage on casting. If home production is the
goal, it needs to be low-melting, both for simpler mold making and easy
melting and handling. There are lots of low-temperature alloys, some
designed for casting and some not. It is certainly possible to produce
extremely accurate castings if someone wants to do so.


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Ted,

I am aware of some metal-filled epoxies that we have used here at
work (70 - 80% silver-bearing epoxy); I wonder if any of these are
suitably dense and can be used for "resin" casting. I suspect that Mr.
Madden would know for sure.

Regards,

-Jeff



On May 26, 6:21am, Ted Culotta wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] re: model flat car weight was Union Pacific flat

cars

The solution is not so obvious to those who would make the metal
castings. Speaking for the resin side of the house, there is already a
significant investment (for a small sole proprietor) in both capital
equipment and learning for a small return on investment (read: labor of
love). To add the equipment to produce metal castings for gons, flats
and hoppers, when they comprise a small part of a line of offerings is
not a further wise investment in equipment and or the time to learn how
to use them. You could outsource this segment, but no one would like
resin kits that would be even more expensive.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

-- End of excerpt from Ted Culotta

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Larry Grubb wrote:

My question should be more accurately stated, are you aware of any alternatives to ZA that are commercially available for production in China that are heavier and yet have detail and shrinkage characteristics that are at least as good as the ZA we now use? I understand you have experience in metallurgy, but I don't know if it extends to the particular area of expertise above.

Yes, that's much more specific! I am definitely a metallurgist, but don't know a great deal about die casting alloys. The name "ZA" might mean a lot of things; in a handbook there are dozens of pages about zinc alloys. I can look into this if you want.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Jeff Aley:

I am aware of some metal-filled epoxies that we have used

here at

work (70 - 80% silver-bearing epoxy); I wonder if any of these are
suitably dense and can be used for "resin" casting. I suspect

that Mr.

Madden would know for sure.

For one thing, mold life is much shorter with epoxies than it is
with urethanes, which by itself adds cost to the process. Silver-
bearing materials aren't cheap either, and they aren't as dense as
you might expect. Al used lead-filled cast polyester floors for his
line of SP stock cars, but even they check in on the light side.
Aaron Gjermundson's cast resin NP flat car kit (which I'll get to as
soon as I finish casting his NP stock cars) is designed with a
pocket between the floor and the underframe to accommodate a flat
weight. Designing a kit to accept extra weight is much better than
leaving it up to the modeler to figure out down the line.

Tom Madden

Tom,

I am glad to see that you are doing Aaron's stock cars for him as there
are still a few people that still are waiting for the cars they ordered
almost two years ago. Ben Hom is the only one on this list that is
still waiting for his two cars that I know of. Fortunately, Aaron
took our advice and is having the cars cast by someone else rather than
trying to do it himself.

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479

pullmanboss wrote:

Ted wrote:

"The solution is not so obvious to those who would make the metal castings. Speaking for the resin
side of the house, there is already a significant investment (for a small sole proprietor) in both
capital equipment and learning for a small return on investment (read: labor of love). To add the
equipment to produce metal castings for gons, flats and hoppers, when they comprise a small part of
a line of offerings is not a further wise investment in equipment and or the time to learn how to
use them. You could outsource this segment, but no one would like resin kits that would be even
more expensive."


If you look in magazines for other genres of model building you will find craftsman kits available
with a variety of different materials; castings of metal and resin, etched brass and wood to be
commonplace.

Are you confirming that these manufacturers are more competent and business savvy that they can
provide such kits yet model railroad manufacturers are not?


Eric Petersson

________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

If you look in magazines for other genres of model building you
will find craftsman kits available
with a variety of different materials; castings of metal and
resin, etched brass and wood to be
commonplace.

Are you confirming that these manufacturers are more competent
and business savvy that they can
provide such kits yet model railroad manufacturers are not?

Given the number of after-market manufacturers for the rest of the modeling
industry, I have assumed that the market is much bigger...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com