Alburgh Trestle


Justin Kahn
 

What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those M&StL cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour hoppers delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous contract with an operator along the Montour?

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.





--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
"There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering company
coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was normally
delivered at Alburgh_."

So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no NKP
hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909, delivering
company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
Armand Premo's possession:

The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal from
foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report of Cars
Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is January
through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying cars were
reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)

B&A 2
B&LE 4
B&M 2
B&O 82
C&O 4
CC&O 1
CNJ 2
CRP 4
D&H 9
DL&W 4
ERIE 13
L&N 1
LNE 1
LV 9
Montour 33
M&StL 2
N&W 4
NC&StL 1
NH 3
NKP 2
NYC 23
P&LE 10
P&S 2
PMKY 4
PRR 39
Rutland 142
RDG 15
W&LE 2
WM 1

There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you shouldn't be
there.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
_________________________________________________________________
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armprem
 

Justin,I would direct that question to Tim Gilbert.I think not.We have
just scratched the surface.As of now ,that is just a snapshot.There are
many more surprises to come.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Alburgh Trestle


What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those
M&StL
cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour hoppers
delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous contract
with an operator along the Montour?

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.





--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
"There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering company
coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was normally
delivered at Alburgh_."

So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no NKP
hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909, delivering
company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
Armand Premo's possession:

The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal from
foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report of Cars
Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is January
through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying cars were
reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)

B&A 2
B&LE 4
B&M 2
B&O 82
C&O 4
CC&O 1
CNJ 2
CRP 4
D&H 9
DL&W 4
ERIE 13
L&N 1
LNE 1
LV 9
Montour 33
M&StL 2
N&W 4
NC&StL 1
NH 3
NKP 2
NYC 23
P&LE 10
P&S 2
PMKY 4
PRR 39
Rutland 142
RDG 15
W&LE 2
WM 1

There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you shouldn't be
there.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/




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armprem
 

Justin,most of this information is coming from"Company Coal Reports"and
this addresses just that portion of coal traffic.Other information is found
on "Switch Lists"We have collated only a small portion of the information
contained in these reports.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Alburgh Trestle


What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those
M&StL
cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour hoppers
delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous contract
with an operator along the Montour?

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.





--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
"There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering company
coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was normally
delivered at Alburgh_."

So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no NKP
hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909, delivering
company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
Armand Premo's possession:

The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal from
foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report of Cars
Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is January
through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying cars were
reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)

B&A 2
B&LE 4
B&M 2
B&O 82
C&O 4
CC&O 1
CNJ 2
CRP 4
D&H 9
DL&W 4
ERIE 13
L&N 1
LNE 1
LV 9
Montour 33
M&StL 2
N&W 4
NC&StL 1
NH 3
NKP 2
NYC 23
P&LE 10
P&S 2
PMKY 4
PRR 39
Rutland 142
RDG 15
W&LE 2
WM 1

There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you shouldn't be
there.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/




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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

armand wrote:

Justin,I would direct that question to Tim Gilbert.I think not.We have
just scratched the surface.As of now ,that is just a snapshot.There are
many more surprises to come.Armand Premo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Alburgh Trestle


What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those
M&StL
cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour hoppers
delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous contract
with an operator along the Montour?
Perhaps, but I really don't know. The MONTOUR was controlled by the PRR and P&LE, and served the Western Pennsylvania - Northern West Virginia coal fields.

There were 202 Hoppers owned by roads serving these coal fields in Jeff English's compilation of activity in Alburgh between January and July 1948. There were 142 Rutland Hoppers used as I understand it, for receiving coal transloaded at Alburgh; 57 Hoppers from the Anthracite Roads; Nine Hoppers of roads subject to Car Order C-411 which specified that all hoppers owned by these roads were to be returned empty to their owners without reloading; That leaves five New England-owned Hoppers, and six "strays."

Tim Gilbert


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jace Kahn wrote:
"What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those
M&StL cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour
hoppers delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an
advantageous contract with an operator along the Montour?"

The rest of the data would seem to indicate the Pittsburgh area. As I
posted a few weeks back, I've also been going through Armand's
switchlists and company coal reports (over a slightly broader range,
1947-1951) and have also turned up large numbers of P&LE, PMcK&Y, PRR,
NYC, and B&O hoppers. Still a big stack to go through, so more to
come!


Ben Hom


armprem
 

Question,What color were the Montour hoppers?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alburgh Trestle


Jace Kahn wrote:
"What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and those
M&StL cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour
hoppers delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an
advantageous contract with an operator along the Montour?"

The rest of the data would seem to indicate the Pittsburgh area. As I
posted a few weeks back, I've also been going through Armand's
switchlists and company coal reports (over a slightly broader range,
1947-1951) and have also turned up large numbers of P&LE, PMcK&Y, PRR,
NYC, and B&O hoppers. Still a big stack to go through, so more to
come!


Ben Hom






Yahoo! Groups Links









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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Question,What color were the Montour hoppers?
In the late days of the Montour, all the ones I saw were black. But I don't know if that was always so.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Question,What color were the Montour hoppers?Armand Premo

Armand,

There was an article on modeling Montour hoppers in the Nov/Dec 89 issue of
Prototype Modeling.

In the article, the author, Steven Heath, commented that the diminutive (hiw
word) Montour hopper fleet was painted oxide red.

Dick


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Dermody wrote:
In the article, the author, Steven Heath, commented that the diminutive (hiw
word) Montour hopper fleet was painted oxide red.
What era was he discussing? They were certainly black by 1980.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Richard Dermody wrote:
In the article, the author, Steven Heath, commented that the
diminutive (hiw
word) Montour hopper fleet was painted oxide red.
What era was he discussing? They were certainly black by 1980.
Tony,

Not really explicit. He does reference the 1965 ORER in accounting for the
number of cars extant, but gives no reference data for the paint color
attribution.

BTW, the article was about modifying a Life-Like (nee Varney) hopper to
represent a USRA copy.

Dick


armprem
 

Dick,I remember the article,but found conflicting information
elsewhere,thus the question.Armand

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Dermody" <ddermody@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alburgh Trestle


Question,What color were the Montour hoppers?Armand Premo

Armand,

There was an article on modeling Montour hoppers in the Nov/Dec 89 issue
of
Prototype Modeling.

In the article, the author, Steven Heath, commented that the diminutive
(hiw
word) Montour hopper fleet was painted oxide red.

Dick




Yahoo! Groups Links








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al_brown03
 

This question may sound strange, but: do the numbers of
the "Montour" cars at Alburgh match the numbers of actual Montour
cars? I ask because in Nimke's "Connecticut River Railroads", vol 6,
at least three cars are reported as "M" whose numbers (65705, 65897,
71864) are way out of the Montour number series in the 1/43 and 1/53
ORER's (nothing above 19199 in either). These are in a handwritten
Canadian Pacific switch list from 1936, for a northbound train out
of St Johnsbury (p 66 in Nimke book). But, these numbers *are* in
B&M number series (for boxcars). I'm suspecting someone on CP was
using "M" as shorthand for "(B&)M", and I'm wondering further if
anyone on the Rutland might've done likewise.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:
What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and
those M&StL
cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour
hoppers
delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous
contract
with an operator along the Montour?

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.





--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...>
wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
"There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering
company
coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was
normally
delivered at Alburgh_."

So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no
NKP
hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909,
delivering
company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
Armand Premo's possession:

The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal
from
foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report
of Cars
Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is
January
through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying
cars were
reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)

B&A 2
B&LE 4
B&M 2
B&O 82
C&O 4
CC&O 1
CNJ 2
CRP 4
D&H 9
DL&W 4
ERIE 13
L&N 1
LNE 1
LV 9
Montour 33
M&StL 2
N&W 4
NC&StL 1
NH 3
NKP 2
NYC 23
P&LE 10
P&S 2
PMKY 4
PRR 39
Rutland 142
RDG 15
W&LE 2
WM 1

There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you
shouldn't be
there.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Al,

Try checking your ORER's for the Monongahela RR, clerks were always confusing this with the Montour.

Fred Freitas

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alburgh Trestle


This question may sound strange, but: do the numbers of
the "Montour" cars at Alburgh match the numbers of actual Montour
cars? I ask because in Nimke's "Connecticut River Railroads", vol 6,
at least three cars are reported as "M" whose numbers (65705, 65897,
71864) are way out of the Montour number series in the 1/43 and 1/53
ORER's (nothing above 19199 in either). These are in a handwritten
Canadian Pacific switch list from 1936, for a northbound train out
of St Johnsbury (p 66 in Nimke book). But, these numbers *are* in
B&M number series (for boxcars). I'm suspecting someone on CP was
using "M" as shorthand for "(B&)M", and I'm wondering further if
anyone on the Rutland might've done likewise.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:
> What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and
those M&StL
> cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour
hoppers
> delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous
contract
> with an operator along the Montour?
>
> Jace Kahn, General Manager
> Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.
>
>
>
>
>
> >--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...>
wrote:
> > > Armand Premo wrote:
> > > "There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering
company
> > > coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was
normally
> > > delivered at Alburgh_."
> > >
> > > So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no
NKP
> > > hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909,
delivering
> > > company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
> >
> >Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
> >Armand Premo's possession:
> >
> >The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal
from
> >foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report
of Cars
> >Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is
January
> >through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying
cars were
> >reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)
> >
> >B&A 2
> >B&LE 4
> >B&M 2
> >B&O 82
> >C&O 4
> >CC&O 1
> >CNJ 2
> >CRP 4
> >D&H 9
> >DL&W 4
> >ERIE 13
> >L&N 1
> >LNE 1
> >LV 9
> >Montour 33
> >M&StL 2
> >N&W 4
> >NC&StL 1
> >NH 3
> >NKP 2
> >NYC 23
> >P&LE 10
> >P&S 2
> >PMKY 4
> >PRR 39
> >Rutland 142
> >RDG 15
> >W&LE 2
> >WM 1
> >
> >There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you
shouldn't be
> >there.
> >
> >Jeff English
> >Troy, New York
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/




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------------------------------------------------------------------------------


al_brown03
 

Hi Fred --

Interesting thought. The 1/43 ORER says the Monongahela owned no
freight cars. Can anyone check a mid-30s ORER?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Fred in Vt." <pennsy@s...> wrote:
Al,

Try checking your ORER's for the Monongahela RR, clerks were
always confusing this with the Montour.

Fred Freitas
----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alburgh Trestle


This question may sound strange, but: do the numbers of
the "Montour" cars at Alburgh match the numbers of actual
Montour
cars? I ask because in Nimke's "Connecticut River Railroads",
vol 6,
at least three cars are reported as "M" whose numbers (65705,
65897,
71864) are way out of the Montour number series in the 1/43 and
1/53
ORER's (nothing above 19199 in either). These are in a
handwritten
Canadian Pacific switch list from 1936, for a northbound train
out
of St Johnsbury (p 66 in Nimke book). But, these numbers *are*
in
B&M number series (for boxcars). I'm suspecting someone on CP
was
using "M" as shorthand for "(B&)M", and I'm wondering further if
anyone on the Rutland might've done likewise.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:
> What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car,
and
those M&StL
> cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of
Montour
hoppers
> delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an
advantageous
contract
> with an operator along the Montour?
>
> Jace Kahn, General Manager
> Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.
>
>
>
>
>
> >--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom"
<b.hom@w...>
wrote:
> > > Armand Premo wrote:
> > > "There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304
delivering
company
> > > coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was
normally
> > > delivered at Alburgh_."
> > >
> > > So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219
hoppers, no
NKP
> > > hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909,
delivering
> > > company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
> >
> >Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old
reports in
> >Armand Premo's possession:
> >
> >The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded
coal
from
> >foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document
is "Report
of Cars
> >Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is
January
> >through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying
cars were
> >reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)
> >
> >B&A 2
> >B&LE 4
> >B&M 2
> >B&O 82
> >C&O 4
> >CC&O 1
> >CNJ 2
> >CRP 4
> >D&H 9
> >DL&W 4
> >ERIE 13
> >L&N 1
> >LNE 1
> >LV 9
> >Montour 33
> >M&StL 2
> >N&W 4
> >NC&StL 1
> >NH 3
> >NKP 2
> >NYC 23
> >P&LE 10
> >P&S 2
> >PMKY 4
> >PRR 39
> >Rutland 142
> >RDG 15
> >W&LE 2
> >WM 1
> >
> >There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you
shouldn't be
> >there.
> >
> >Jeff English
> >Troy, New York
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
it's FREE!
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------




Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@f...> wrote:
I'm suspecting someone on CP was
using "M" as shorthand for "(B&)M", and I'm wondering further if
anyone on the Rutland might've done likewise.
It 's entirely possible that CP employees did so, but I don't recall
seeing such behavior in all the Rutland documents I've studied. "C"
for NYC and "P" for PRR is nearly universal; the notation for CB&Q
looks more like "CB2". It appears that they made no effort to ensure
diffferentiation between SOO and SOU, etc.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


armprem
 

Yes,some Rutland conductors used "C" for the New York Central.Armand
Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "al_brown03" <abrown@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alburgh Trestle


This question may sound strange, but: do the numbers of
the "Montour" cars at Alburgh match the numbers of actual Montour
cars? I ask because in Nimke's "Connecticut River Railroads", vol 6,
at least three cars are reported as "M" whose numbers (65705, 65897,
71864) are way out of the Montour number series in the 1/43 and 1/53
ORER's (nothing above 19199 in either). These are in a handwritten
Canadian Pacific switch list from 1936, for a northbound train out
of St Johnsbury (p 66 in Nimke book). But, these numbers *are* in
B&M number series (for boxcars). I'm suspecting someone on CP was
using "M" as shorthand for "(B&)M", and I'm wondering further if
anyone on the Rutland might've done likewise.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@h...> wrote:
What struck me (apart from the lone-ranger Clinchfield car, and
those M&StL
cars came a long way) was the relatively large number of Montour
hoppers
delivering coal; is it possible the Rutland had an advantageous
contract
with an operator along the Montour?

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.





--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...>
wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
"There is photographic evidence of NKP hopper 87304 delivering
company
coal directly in Rutland (circa 1950). Company coal was
normally
delivered at Alburgh_."

So far in the Rutland waybill analysis, out of 219 hoppers, no
NKP
hoppers and one from the Wheeling & Lake Erie: WLE 61909,
delivering
company coal at Alburgh, 10 January 1951.
Here's substantially more data, also compiled from old reports in
Armand Premo's possession:

The location is Alburgh, Vt., where the Rutland transloaded coal
from
foreign cars to home cars. The name of the document is "Report
of Cars
Arrived, Ordered, Placed and Released", and the time frame is
January
through July of 1948. The following numbers of coal-carrying
cars were
reported (not necessarily hoppers; could be gons, etc.)

B&A 2
B&LE 4
B&M 2
B&O 82
C&O 4
CC&O 1
CNJ 2
CRP 4
D&H 9
DL&W 4
ERIE 13
L&N 1
LNE 1
LV 9
Montour 33
M&StL 2
N&W 4
NC&StL 1
NH 3
NKP 2
NYC 23
P&LE 10
P&S 2
PMKY 4
PRR 39
Rutland 142
RDG 15
W&LE 2
WM 1

There's plenty of cars there that theories would tell you
shouldn't be
there.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
_________________________________________________________________
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Al Brown asked:
"This question may sound strange, but: do the numbers of
the "Montour" cars at Alburgh match the numbers of actual Montour
cars?"

Yes. Here are the entries cross-checked with the January 1950 ORER:

M 15000-15499, IL 30 ft 6 in, 1880 cu ft (USRA clone)

M 15004 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)
M 15121 (Alburgh, 06Mar48)
M 15247 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 15264 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 15299 (Alburgh, 20Apr48)
M 15370 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 15386 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 15388 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)
M 15406 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)

M 16000-16499, IL 30 ft 6 in, 1880 cu ft (USRA clone)
M 16091 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 16169 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 16226 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 16244 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 16282 (Alburgh, 13Apr48)
M 16296 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 16395 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 16416 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 16418 (Alburgh, 08Apr48)

M 17000-17499, IL 30 ft 6 in, 1880 cu ft (USRA clone)
M 17184 (Alburgh, 08Apr48)
M 17253 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 17346 (Alburgh, 17Mar48)
M 17382 (Alburgh, 06Apr48)
M 17417 (Alburgh, 13Apr48)

M 18000-18299, IL 33 ft, 2081 cu ft (Offset)
M 18034 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 18172 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)
M 18196 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 18244 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)

M 19000-19199, IL 33 ft, 2145 cu ft (Offset)
M 19006 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)
M 19063 (Alburgh, 09Apr48)
M 19153 (Alburgh, 10Apr48)
M 19156 (Alburgh, 21Apr48)
M 19198 (Alburgh, 09Apr48)

I'll pull more details on the offsets after work tonight.


Ben Hom


Larry Kline
 

Armand Premo asked:
What color were the Montour hoppers?

In the early 1950s they were black with white lettering. Numerous
identifiable Montour hoppers appear in the ca. 1952-1954 WM movies and
color photos by Bill Price. They are all painted black with white
lettering.

These Montour hoppers were probably originated by the P&WV, who had
trackage rights over the Montour to serve Pittsburgh Terminal Coal Co.
Mine No. 8, and routed via the WM. Some of them may have been on their
way to Alburgh. About 8.5% of WM's eastbound coal traffic (70 cars per
day) went to New England and Canada. See my _WM Coal Traffic - 1950s_
diagram in the files section.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

On July 5th, Jeff English provided the STMFC the number of hoppers in company coal service at the Alburgh Trestle where loads of foreign hoppers were transferred to Rutland's hoppers in order to avoid excessive per diem charges for, apparently, the January through June 1948 period.

Armand Premo sent me the spreadsheet which is apparently the one Jeff used. Among other things in that spreadsheet, I noted the amount of duplicate car numbers which could have inflated the numbers Jeff provided the group. Some of these duplications were legitimate, but many were not - the illegitimate duplications included loads which arrived in Alburgh on the same day as other listings of the same number. Below is a listing of the number of hoppers per car owner which Jeff used compared with the number the spreadsheet contained including and excluding duplications.

Spreadsheet
Coal Field Railroad Jeff's # In. Dupl. Exc. Dupl.

Home Rutland-GA - 8 5
Home Rutland-H 142 211 141
Total Rutland 142 219 146

WPA/NWV NYC 23 23 18
" B&A (NYC) 2 2 1
" P&LE 10 9 9
" PMKY 4 4 4
" B&LE 4 4 2
" B&O 82 83 60
" Montour 33 33 33
" P&S 2 2 1
" PRR 39 39 36
" W&LE 2 2 2
" WM 1 1 1
Total West PA/No WV 201 201 167

Anth. Rds CNJ 2 2 1
" CRP 4 4 2
" D&H 9 9 7
" DL&W 4 4 3
" ERIE 13 12 8
" L&NE 1 1 1
" LV 9 9 6
" RDG 15 15 7
Total Anthracite Roads 57 56 35

C-411 Roads C&O 4 3 1
" N&W 4 4 2
" L&N 1 1 1
Total C-411 Roads 9 8 4

New Eng B&M 2 2 2
" NH 3 3 2
Total New England 5 5 4

Strays CC&O 1 1 1
" M&SL 2 2 2
" NC&SL 1 1 1
" NKP 2 2 1
Total Strays 6 6 5

Total Foreign Hoppers 278 278 217

Home + Foreign 420 497 363

Jeff's numbers seem to reflect the Net Rutland Hoppers while the Foreign Hoppers were Gross including duplications. In my opinion, the third column which excludes the duplications provides the best of the three columns to analyze the hopper utilization at Alburgh NY in 1948.

But there are still problems:

1) The spreadsheet includes sightings almost daily between March 6th, 1948 to April 21st plus those hoppers sighted on June 26th, 28th and 29th.
2) Most of the Rutland Hoppers sighted in the June listings arrived in Alburgh about five weeks earlier in May. Why were not these hoppers when loaded sent to other Rutland engine terminals? Coal Strike?

In order to analyze a more consistent sample, only the activity from March 6th - April 21st should be used. The table below considers all foreign hoppers as inbound and the Rutland hoppers outbound from the Alburgh Coal Trestle. To shorten the bandwidth, I have consolidated the data by grouping the owners by "coal field." The per diem calculation is the difference between when the time the car arrived in Alburgh and the last sighting which is assumed to be the date its load was transferred. All cars are assumed to be loaded to the nominal capacity of each car as per the 4/1949 ORER.

INBOUND
Net No. Agg. per Per Diem Aggregate Avg CAPY
"Coal Field" of Cars Diem Days per Car Tons per Car
W PA / N WV 115 301 2.62 6,500 56.5
Anthracite 17 83 4.88 902.5 53.1
C-411 Roads 2 7 3.50 105 52.5
New England 2 13 6.50 140 70.0
Strays 4 20 5.00 215 53.8
Total Foreign 140 424 3.03 7,862.5 56.2

OUTBOUND
Rutland 101 5,010 49.7

Incoming Surplus Tons Transferred 2,852.5

Regarding per diem, if incoming cars were unloaded promptly which meant overnight, the per diem per average car would have been 1.00 which can be increased to 1.40 if the Alburgh did not work weekends. Using the 1.40 in the formula, per diem days should have been 141 instead of the 424 in the table above. Of the 140, 35 had zero days per diem; 28 one day; 13 two days; 10 three days; 15 four days; 5 five days; 14 six days; 1 seven days; 11 eight days; 5 nine days; and 2 eleven days.

Estimated (at Nominal Capacity) Outbound Tonnage of 5,010 Tons was only 63.7% of the Inbound Estimate. One question may be whether inbound cars were loaded to capacity. The nominal capacities of the 140 Inbound Hoppers were three hoppers having 42.5 tons nominal capacity; 63 fifty tonners; 41 fifty-five tonners; 32 seventy tonners; and 1 ninety tonner. In 1947, the revenue tons per car load of Bituminous was in the 56-57 ton range, so the 56.2 average tons above may not be terribly off the mark.

The Rutland had smaller CAPY hoppers which necessitated the need to load more hoppers than the number of inbound hoppers bringing the coal to the Trestle.

The 5,010 tons loaded in Alburgh into Rutland Hoppers averaged 109 tons per day over the 46 day interval between March 6th and April 21st. Was this amount adequate to meet the demands for locomotive fuel at Rutland's other engine terminals?

The 2,852.5 tons surplus of unloaded tons over those loaded may be considered as used at the Alburgh Engine Terminal. That implies that 62 tons of locomotive coal was loaded into tenders daily over the 46 days. I have no way of knowing whether that 62 ton consumption average was too little or too much for the locos at Alburgh.

I know that Ben Hom is putting together a spreadsheet for hoppers at the Alburgh Trestle. Maybe Ben's data will give a different perspective than what I have seen for the 46 days which I have analyzed.

Tim Gilbert


Richard Hendrickson
 

Hey, guys, this thread has been going on for a long time and there hasn't been a word about the Alburgh trestle recently. The subject line should have been changed to Montour Hoppers several days ago. Doesn't matter to me, as I'm not interested either in the Alburgh trestle or in Montour hoppers, but others on the list have doubtless been needlessly confused.

Richard Hendrickson