Canadian open hoppers in USA


okiemax <northtowner@...>
 

I am guessing that a lot of coal moved from the USA into Canada by
rail during the steam era, and it seems reasonable that some of it may
have moved on hoppers of Canadian railroads. However, I can't recall
ever actually seeing a Canadian hopper in the States back then. I would
appreciate information on the subject, including specifics on the
names of the Canadian roads and the kinds of cargo.

Thanks,

Max Carey


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Max Carey wrote:

I am guessing that a lot of coal moved from the USA into Canada by
rail during the steam era, and it seems reasonable that some of it may
have moved on hoppers of Canadian railroads. However, I can't recall
ever actually seeing a Canadian hopper in the States back then. I would
appreciate information on the subject, including specifics on the
names of the Canadian roads and the kinds of cargo.
Max,

You are correct about coal moving from the US into Canada. It moved both by all-rail and via colliers or barges across the Great Lakes (I am not aware of any US Coal entering Canada via the St. Lawrence).

The percentages of coal hoppers-owned by booth the CN and CPR were quite low (4,825 hoppers out of a total 101,189 revenue freight cars as per the 4/55 ORER for the CN, and 4,307 hoppers of the total 74,483 revenue cars on the CPR).

Unless there were severe hopper shortages in the US, there may have been problems with US Customs in having Canadian Hoppers cross the border southbound empty - US Customs could have imposed a duty upon those hoppers. Therefore, almost every Canadian hopper appearing in the US had to have crossed the border southbound loaded.

Tim Gilbert


okiemax <northtowner@...>
 

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the information. For the reasons you gave, a Canadian
open hopper in the USA must have been a rarity. I can't imagine what
kinds of freight would have moved from Canada to the USA in open
hoppers.

Max Carey

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:
Max Carey wrote:

I am guessing that a lot of coal moved from the USA into Canada
by
rail during the steam era, and it seems reasonable that some of
it may
have moved on hoppers of Canadian railroads. However, I can't
recall
ever actually seeing a Canadian hopper in the States back then.
I would
appreciate information on the subject, including specifics on the
names of the Canadian roads and the kinds of cargo.
Max,

You are correct about coal moving from the US into Canada. It
moved both
by all-rail and via colliers or barges across the Great Lakes (I
am not
aware of any US Coal entering Canada via the St. Lawrence).

The percentages of coal hoppers-owned by booth the CN and CPR were
quite
low (4,825 hoppers out of a total 101,189 revenue freight cars as
per
the 4/55 ORER for the CN, and 4,307 hoppers of the total 74,483
revenue
cars on the CPR).

Unless there were severe hopper shortages in the US, there may
have been
problems with US Customs in having Canadian Hoppers cross the
border
southbound empty - US Customs could have imposed a duty upon those
hoppers. Therefore, almost every Canadian hopper appearing in the
US had
to have crossed the border southbound loaded.

Tim Gilbert


John Riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Max Carey wrote -

Thanks for the information. For the reasons you gave, a Canadian
open hopper in the USA must have been a rarity. I can't imagine what
kinds of freight would have moved from Canada to the USA in open
hoppers.


Max,

Iron ore is one example. Unit trains of open hoppers carried iron ore from northern Ontario to steel mills near Pittsburgh.
These unit trains consisted of hundreds of CN, Ontario Northland and Canada Southern open triple hoppers. But this was after the period of this group, from 1965 to 1971 .

Another example - in the west during the steam era, CP open top coal gons carried coal accross the border from the many large coal mines in the Crows Nest Pass of the Rockies.

In 1950, CN imported from the US 1.5 million tons of bituminous coal while CP imported 1.6 million tons. This was imported from PA and Ohio into southern Ontario and Manitoba. The further west and east regions of Canada were both self-suffient with coal reserves.

Hope this helps.
John Riddell


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Max Carey wrote:
"I am guessing that a lot of coal moved from the USA into Canada by
rail during the steam era, and it seems reasonable that some of it may
have moved on hoppers of Canadian railroads. However, I can't recall
ever actually seeing a Canadian hopper in the States back then. I would
appreciate information on the subject, including specifics on the
names of the Canadian roads and the kinds of cargo."

Another data point - so far, out of 414 foreign road hoppers at Alburgh
between 1947-1951, not a single one was CN or CP.


Ben Hom


Tim O'Connor
 

Another data point - so far, out of 414 foreign road hoppers at Alburgh
between 1947-1951, not a single one was CN or CP.

Ben Hom
But what about Island Pond, Brownsville, Portland, or White River Jct?
What about Eastport Idaho?


Denny Wertz <wm1118sl@...>
 

In the WB Video Allegheny Rails, Vol II, The Western
Maryland Railway, there is a scene near Meyersdale, Pa
of the EB Connellsville-Cumberland local that has
three Canadian Pacific (IIRC) open top hoppers in the
consist. There is no mention of whether they are loads
or empties or their destination. Although rare it is
still a mystery why they were there.

Denny Wertz, WMRHS

--- John Riddell <jriddell@interlog.com> wrote:

Max Carey wrote -

Thanks for the information. For the reasons you
gave, a Canadian
open hopper in the USA must have been a rarity. I
can't imagine what
kinds of freight would have moved from Canada to the
USA in open
hoppers.


Max,

Iron ore is one example. Unit trains of open hoppers
carried iron ore from northern Ontario to steel
mills near Pittsburgh.
These unit trains consisted of hundreds of CN,
Ontario Northland and Canada Southern open triple
hoppers. But this was after the period of this
group, from 1965 to 1971 .

Another example - in the west during the steam era,
CP open top coal gons carried coal accross the
border from the many large coal mines in the Crows
Nest Pass of the Rockies.

In 1950, CN imported from the US 1.5 million tons of
bituminous coal while CP imported 1.6 million tons.
This was imported from PA and Ohio into southern
Ontario and Manitoba. The further west and east
regions of Canada were both self-suffient with coal
reserves.

Hope this helps.
John Riddell




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ehansmann@...
 

In the Monongahela Railroad book by Gratz and Arbogast, there are several images of Canadian Pacific gondolas at coal mines along the MRY. I believe these all date from before WWII. I can check the book once the fresh epoxy paint dries on the basement floor and I can retreat to my hobby sanctum.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Max Carey wrote:
"I am guessing that a lot of coal moved from the USA into Canada by
rail during the steam era, and it seems reasonable that some of it
may have moved on hoppers of Canadian railroads. However, I can't
recall ever actually seeing a Canadian hopper in the States back
then. I would appreciate information on the subject, including
specifics on the names of the Canadian roads and the kinds of cargo."

If 1956 is a suitable example, the answer then is no, not much Canadian
coal moved south by rail (Canada Bureau of Statistics, 1956: 431k tons of
Bit and 235k tons of Anthracite). This is less than a third of one percent
of US coal shipments. FWIW, tonnage dropped considerably in 1957.
Substantial amounts of US originated coal moved north to Canada tho.

Most curious is the fact that fully half of the tonnage reported by the
Bureau as "delivered to US points" is attributed to either the Maine Central
or the (former) Pere Marquette. I don't know what significance this has...
perhaps those more fmailiar with the region can explain.

About 3/4 of the rest originated in the west and it's known that a good
portion of this tonnage was handed over to the Spokane International.

Hope this helps.

Dave Nelson


mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

Most curious is the fact that fully half of the tonnage reported by
the
Bureau as "delivered to US points" is attributed to either the Maine
Central
or the (former) Pere Marquette.
The "Maine Central" traffic could have been Nova Scotia coal going to
Maine paper mills. Now, I wonder if it was an all-rail routing (CN
Nova Scotia to CP St. John to MEC Mattawamkeag) or if a water haul was
involved (collier to Searsport or Bucksport, Maine, perhaps?).

Walt Lankenau


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

mcindoefalls wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

Most curious is the fact that fully half of the tonnage reported by
the Bureau as "delivered to US points" is attributed to either the
Maine Central or the (former) Pere Marquette.
The "Maine Central" traffic could have been Nova Scotia coal going to
Maine paper mills. Now, I wonder if it was an all-rail routing (CN
Nova Scotia to CP St. John to MEC Mattawamkeag) or if a water haul
was involved (collier to Searsport or Bucksport, Maine, perhaps?).
In the U.S., originating means mine to rail. Further, water to rail
shipments were classified as rail to rail, meaning whomever received it and
moving it once again classified it as received and not as originating. I
don't know if the Canadian Bureau used the same thinking but taking a guess
I'd say it probably did.

At any rate the key point is not much coal (or anything else for that
matter) moved south.

Dave Nelson


oliver
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

About 3/4 of the rest originated in the west and it's known that a
good portion of this tonnage was handed over to the Spokane
International.
I find this interesting, given that the Crowsnest (south eastern BC)
coal deposits were so close to the SI via CPR. I would have thought
some substantial amonts would have benn exported south of the line.
Where was the US coal shipped to? Vancouver? Calgary? East?
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

stefanelaine wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

About 3/4 of the rest originated in the west and it's known that a
good portion of this tonnage was handed over to the Spokane
International.
I find this interesting, given that the Crowsnest (south eastern BC)
coal deposits were so close to the SI via CPR. I would have thought
some substantial amonts would have benn exported south of the line.
Yes, I understand but the facts just don't support that assumption. 8-)

I've said on other occasions that the Canadian data shows only about 10% of
originated shipments of all goods were destined for US points (IIRC, paper
products being the largest). It just wasn't an open trade zone back then.

Where was the US coal shipped to? Vancouver? Calgary? East?
Don't know about 1956... But that year US originated coal delivered to
points in Canada was about 5 million tons -- a third of all coal moved by
rail in Canada. In 1957 it was about the same tonnage, 40% entered via
points in Ontario, 20% via Quebec, and most of the rest somewhere west of
the Great Lakes. n.b., I don't know how Canada classified U.S. coal moved
across the Great Lakes and then moved farther by rail. It could be
classified as originated in Canada or it could be classified as originated
in the U.S. All we know is it was at least 5 million tons of coal moved
north by some means.

Dave Nelson


jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

To add to John's comment:

When J&L owned the Adams mine on the Onatio Northland, iron ore was
shipped to Pittsburgh Works in ON, CN, Canada Southen and P&LE
hoppers, in proportion to the mileage. This lasted from 1965 to
1971, when Adams mine output was redirected to Canadian producer
Dofasco.

Someone I know worked for a zinc mill in Pittsburgh. Zinc-lead ore
(they tend to go together) was shipped from a mine in Canada. Mostly
in old boxcars, shoveled out by hand. Ugh. Sometimes arrived in
hoppers. All Canadian.

I rarely see Canadian hoppers in the US in the photo record. Not out
of the question, Canada is blessed with a wealth of ores.












--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Riddell" <jriddell@i...> wrote:
Max Carey wrote -

Thanks for the information. For the reasons you gave, a Canadian
open hopper in the USA must have been a rarity. I can't imagine
what
kinds of freight would have moved from Canada to the USA in open
hoppers.


Max,

Iron ore is one example. Unit trains of open hoppers carried iron
ore from northern Ontario to steel mills near Pittsburgh.
These unit trains consisted of hundreds of CN, Ontario Northland
and Canada Southern open triple hoppers. But this was after the
period of this group, from 1965 to 1971 .

Another example - in the west during the steam era, CP open top
coal gons carried coal accross the border from the many large coal
mines in the Crows Nest Pass of the Rockies.

In 1950, CN imported from the US 1.5 million tons of bituminous
coal while CP imported 1.6 million tons. This was imported from PA
and Ohio into southern Ontario and Manitoba. The further west and
east regions of Canada were both self-suffient with coal reserves.

Hope this helps.
John Riddell