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Canadian open hoppers in USA - Originated or Received? - Cape Breton Coal

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

In the U.S., originating means mine to rail. Further, water to rail
shipments were classified as rail to rail, meaning whomever received it and
moving it once again classified it as received and not as originating. I
don't know if the Canadian Bureau used the same thinking but taking a guess
I'd say it probably did.

At any rate the key point is not much coal (or anything else for that
matter) moved south.
Page 11.11 of the Railway Statistical Manual defined the following terms in its "Freight Commodity Statistics" section:

A CARLOAD shall consist of one shipment of not less than 10,000 pounds of ONE commodity. A mixed carload shall be treated as a carload of that commodity which forms the major portion of the shipment in weight. If the single shipment is loaded into more than one car, each car shall be reported as a carload. If mote than one "carload" is loaded into one car, each shipment shall be reported separately as a carload. All shipments weighing less than 10,000 pounds shall be considered as LCL freight.

ORIGINATED ON RESPONDENT'S ROAD means:
A) Shipments originated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments received from water lines and motor highway lines, except when identified as having had previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments which received first line-haul on respondent's road, but originated on switching lines connected directly or indirectly with respondent's road;
D) Import traffic received from water carriers, and from outlying possessions of the US;
E) Outbound freight which has been accorded transit privileges.

RECEIVED FROM CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments received directly from rail carriers;
B) Shipments received from water lines and highway motor truck lines, when identified from information on waybills or abstracts as having previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments received from connecting rail carriers operating in Canada or Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal received at Upper Lake ports;
E) Iron ore received at Lower Lake and St. Lawrence ports;
F) Tidewater coal from Atlantic ports.

TERMINATED ON LINE means:
A) Shipments terminated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and motor truck highway except when identified as to receive further rail transportation;
C) Shipments which receive last line-haul on respondent's road, but are delivered to switching roads connecting directly or indirectly with respondent's road;
D) Export traffic delivered to water carriers and shipments to outlying possessions of the US.

DELIVERED TO CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments delivered directly to connecting rail carriers;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and highway motor truck lines when identified from information on waybills or abstracts as to receive further rail transportation;
C) Shipments delivered to connecting rail carriers operating in Canada and Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal delivered to Lower Lake and St. Lawrence River ports for transhipment by vessel;
E) Iron ore delivered to Upper Lake ports for transshipment by vessel;
F) Tidewater coal to Atlantic ports.

The terms "Tidewater coal to (or from) Atlantic Ports" was interpreted by the AAR's Freight Traffic Statistics on 9/24/1956 as follows:

A) The terms "tidewater coal" ... should be interpreted as meaning coal dumped at North American ports for trans-shipment by water in coastwise movements to another port for: 1) consumption at such other port, or 2) furtherance by rail in line-haul movement to interior points.
B) Coal dumped at North American ports consigned for export should be reported as terminated at the port;
C) Coal dumped at North American ports intended for use as bunker or for trans-shipment by water to points in the same port area shall be reported as terminated at the port.

How was Cape Breton Coal reported by US railroads? Port of Boston records in 1923 broke down ship arrivals between "Foreign" and "Coastal." The one schooner carrying coal from Cape Breton was treated as a foreign vessel by the port authorities. Sydney NS was considered to be a foreign port. Thus, US RR's carrying this coal would treat these shipments as Originated on their line.

Or that's the way I would interpret it. Maybe others after reading the language would reach another opinion.

Tim Gilbert
Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Guyz,

Maybe the place to seek this out is on a website that deals with Great Lakes shipping, and hopefully, a data bank for the years in question. This is on the premise that such a site is available.
Anyone tried this route ??

Fred Freitas

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gilbert
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA - Originated or Received? - Cape Breton Coal


Dave Nelson wrote:

> In the U.S., originating means mine to rail. Further, water to rail
> shipments were classified as rail to rail, meaning whomever received
> it and
> moving it once again classified it as received and not as originating. I
> don't know if the Canadian Bureau used the same thinking but taking a
> guess
> I'd say it probably did.
>
> At any rate the key point is not much coal (or anything else for that
> matter) moved south.
>
Page 11.11 of the Railway Statistical Manual defined the following terms
in its "Freight Commodity Statistics" section:

A CARLOAD shall consist of one shipment of not less than 10,000 pounds
of ONE commodity. A mixed carload shall be treated as a carload of that
commodity which forms the major portion of the shipment in weight. If
the single shipment is loaded into more than one car, each car shall be
reported as a carload. If mote than one "carload" is loaded into one
car, each shipment shall be reported separately as a carload. All
shipments weighing less than 10,000 pounds shall be considered as LCL
freight.

ORIGINATED ON RESPONDENT'S ROAD means:
A) Shipments originated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments received from water lines and motor highway lines, except
when identified as having had previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments which received first line-haul on respondent's road, but
originated on switching lines connected directly or indirectly with
respondent's road;
D) Import traffic received from water carriers, and from outlying
possessions of the US;
E) Outbound freight which has been accorded transit privileges.

RECEIVED FROM CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments received directly from rail carriers;
B) Shipments received from water lines and highway motor truck lines,
when identified from information on waybills or abstracts as having
previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments received from connecting rail carriers operating in Canada
or Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal received at Upper Lake ports;
E) Iron ore received at Lower Lake and St. Lawrence ports;
F) Tidewater coal from Atlantic ports.

TERMINATED ON LINE means:
A) Shipments terminated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and motor truck highway except
when identified as to receive further rail transportation;
C) Shipments which receive last line-haul on respondent's road, but are
delivered to switching roads connecting directly or indirectly with
respondent's road;
D) Export traffic delivered to water carriers and shipments to outlying
possessions of the US.

DELIVERED TO CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments delivered directly to connecting rail carriers;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and highway motor truck lines when
identified from information on waybills or abstracts as to receive
further rail transportation;
C) Shipments delivered to connecting rail carriers operating in Canada
and Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal delivered to Lower Lake and St. Lawrence River ports
for transhipment by vessel;
E) Iron ore delivered to Upper Lake ports for transshipment by vessel;
F) Tidewater coal to Atlantic ports.

The terms "Tidewater coal to (or from) Atlantic Ports" was interpreted
by the AAR's Freight Traffic Statistics on 9/24/1956 as follows:

A) The terms "tidewater coal" ... should be interpreted as meaning
coal dumped at North American ports for trans-shipment by water in
coastwise movements to another port for: 1) consumption at such other
port, or 2) furtherance by rail in line-haul movement to interior points.
B) Coal dumped at North American ports consigned for export should be
reported as terminated at the port;
C) Coal dumped at North American ports intended for use as bunker or for
trans-shipment by water to points in the same port area shall be
reported as terminated at the port.

How was Cape Breton Coal reported by US railroads? Port of Boston
records in 1923 broke down ship arrivals between "Foreign" and
"Coastal." The one schooner carrying coal from Cape Breton was treated
as a foreign vessel by the port authorities. Sydney NS was considered to
be a foreign port. Thus, US RR's carrying this coal would treat these
shipments as Originated on their line.

Or that's the way I would interpret it. Maybe others after reading the
language would reach another opinion.

Tim Gilbert



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Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Tim the data I was sharing was from the Canadian Bureau of Statitics, not
the ICC (i.e., the Canadian perspective of Canadian rail shipments into the
US). How the US then classified those shipments after export from Canada
wasn't documented by the Bureau.

I suppose if one wanted to find out how much coal was exported from Canada
to the US, in total as well as by customs region (possibly even port of
entry), one could find such data in any Minerals Yearbook published by the
US Department of Mines.

Dave Nelson
Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Fred in Vt. wrote:

Guyz,

Maybe the place to seek this out is on a website that deals with Great Lakes shipping, and hopefully, a data bank for the years in question. This is on the premise that such a site is available.
Anyone tried this route ??
I doubt that the Cape Breton Coal ever sought a Great Lakes route unless it was barged up the St. Lawrence through the Thousand Islands, Lake Ontario and the Welland Canal.

Tim Gilbert
Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Tim,

My mistake, thought the thread was working into Ontario Province.

Fred F

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gilbert
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA - Originated or Received? - Cape Breton Coal


Fred in Vt. wrote:

> Guyz,
>
> Maybe the place to seek this out is on a website that deals
> with Great Lakes shipping, and hopefully, a data bank for the years in
> question. This is on the premise that such a site is available.
> Anyone tried this route ??

I doubt that the Cape Breton Coal ever sought a Great Lakes route unless
it was barged up the St. Lawrence through the Thousand Islands, Lake
Ontario and the Welland Canal.

Tim Gilbert



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a.. Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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