Topics

BLI vs. Walthers express reefers


D. Scott Chatfield
 

Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer, why should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers model? They look almost identical. The Broadway version costs a couple dollars more.

Scott C


Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
 

On Sep 15, 2005, at 11:28 PM, blindog@mindspring.com wrote:

Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer, why should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers model? They look almost identical. The Broadway version costs a couple dollars more.
Scott,

AFAIK, they are identical prototypes. I would LOVE to see an unbiased side by side review of these cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

AFAIK, they are identical prototypes.<
I have a pair of BLIs as the lettering I wanted (earlier style) was not
done by Walthers. Not being a expert on these cars all I have to say is
they look very nice and I didn't have to installing the handrails.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 16, 8:22am, Bruce Smith wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] BLI vs. Walthers express reefers
AFAIK, they are identical prototypes. I would LOVE to see an
unbiased side by side review of these cars.

Perhaps if you wait long enough, that fellow from Auburn will write them
up in The Keystone Modeler.

;-)

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Greg Martin
 

Scott wrote:

Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer, why
should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers model? They look
almost identical. The Broadway version costs a couple dollars more.<<



Bruce wrote:

Scott,
AFAIK, they are identical prototypes. I would LOVE to see an unbiased side
by side review of these cars.

Regards
Bruce<

I too would like to see a comparison, but not to each other, rather both to
an accurate set of plans. This is the only true comparison.

Greg Martin


Dan Stainton
 

Look your Broadway Cars over carefully, both of mine had broken
ladders and one had chipped/peeling paint on the
ladder

Dan
Stainton



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, blindog@m... wrote:
Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer, why
should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers model?
They look almost identical. The Broadway version costs a couple
dollars more.

Scott C


Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@a... wrote:

Scott wrote:

Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer,
why should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers
model? They look almost identical. The Broadway version costs a
couple dollars more.<<

Bruce wrote:

Scott,
AFAIK, they are identical prototypes. I would LOVE to see an
unbiased side by side review of these cars.

Regards
Bruce<

I too would like to see a comparison, but not to each other,
rather both to an accurate set of plans. This is the only true
comparison.

Greg Martin
Greg, I think you missed Bruce's point. What is desired is a
comparison of the two to see which better matches an "accurate set of
plans." A review of either vs. the plans would be nice, but it would
be nice to have a side-by-side comparo to know which is a closer
match to the prototype (vs. the competing product.) Since the
Broadway is available in an earlier paint scheme not available from
Walthers, that makes it a better choice for me, unless a review shows
some other problem.

We have the same need for a side-by-side comparison of the Funaro B&O
wagontop vs. the Model RR Warehouse. The Model RR Warehouse version
has been narrowed to correct the width, but we don't know whether it
builds into a better kit than the Funaro or vice versa. I'll bet one
is better in some places than the other and vice versa, neither being
perfect. Until someone knowlegable has both in hand, along with the
prototype plans, we may not know which to buy.
Dean Payne


Greg Martin
 

Dean,

I wrote...
I too would like to see a comparison, but not to each other,
rather both to an accurate set of plans. This is the only true
comparison.

Greg Martin
Then you wrote...

"Greg, I think you missed Bruce's point. What is desired is a
comparison of the two to see which better matches an "accurate set of
plans." A review of either vs. the plans would be nice, but it would
be nice to have a side-by-side comparo to know which is a closer
match to the prototype (vs. the competing product.) Since the
Broadway is available in an earlier paint scheme not available from
Walthers, that makes it a better choice for me, unless a review shows
some other problem.

We have the same need for a side-by-side comparison of the Funaro B&O
wagontop vs. the Model RR Warehouse. The Model RR Warehouse version
has been narrowed to correct the width, but we don't know whether it
builds into a better kit than the Funaro or vice versa. I'll bet one
is better in some places than the other and vice versa, neither being
perfect. Until someone knowlegable has both in hand, along with the
prototype plans, we may not know which to buy.
Dean Payne"

I am not sure what purpose it would serve to compare them together not knowing which is correct, do you? Why compare one that might be wrong to another that my be right? Shouldn't we first establish which one best represents the prototype per the original drawing or doesn't that matter????

In your words...

"We have the same need for a side-by-side comparison of the Funaro B&O
wagontop vs. the Model RR Warehouse. The Model RR Warehouse version
has been narrowed to correct the width, but we don't know whether it
builds into a better kit than the Funaro or vice versa."

I could personally care less if a B&O car is fatter to another unless we can clearly establish which on is correct... I just want the correct one or to know which one requires less work to make it so and I believe(correct me if I am wrong)the only way to that is from a correct set of plans... Otherwise what's the purpose of the comprison... The other mehtod is simple conjecture of "I sure like this one better..." Let's first establish which one it correct.

Greg Martin


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
I am not sure what purpose it would serve to compare them together not knowing which is correct, do you? Why compare one that might be wrong to another that my be right? Shouldn't we first establish which one best represents the prototype per the original drawing or doesn't that matter????
Surely any sensible review would compare to the prototype, whether of one or two models.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dean Payne <deanpayne@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
Greg Martin wrote:
I am not sure what purpose it would serve to compare them together
not knowing which is correct, do you? Why compare one that might be
wrong to another that my be right? Shouldn't we first establish which
one best represents the prototype per the original drawing or doesn't
that matter????

Surely any sensible review would compare to the prototype,
whether of one or two models.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
Thanks. You summed that up with more economy than I did! That was the
point I was trying to make.

Dean Payne


Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
 

List,

I believe that both the Walthers reefer and the BLI reefer are available
in the same early REA paint scheme. Here's the Walthers car:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-5485

There's still no photo of the BLI car, but they do show a drawing of the
early paint scheme on the BLI website.

It looks like the same paint to me, with the possible exception of truck
color and quantity of end lettering.

Dan Miller

Since the
Broadway is available in an earlier paint scheme not available from
Walthers, that makes it a better choice for me, unless a review shows
some other problem.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I believe that both the Walthers reefer and the BLI reefer are available
in the same early REA paint scheme<
As you said somewhat different lettering. Also I believe the Walthers
lettering color is yellow and at least for my era should be gold. The BLI
cars are gold lettering.
Walthers has a problem sometimes of not describing the painting of the
cars!

Probably a minor point but if you are buying a RTR I would expect the
grab irons to be installed. BLI does and Walthers doesn't!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 6:18 AM, Daniel J Miller wrote:

List,

I believe that both the Walthers reefer and the BLI reefer are available
in the same early REA paint scheme. Here's the Walthers car:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-5485
That's useful information, because Walthers' original announcement of the express reefers showed only the later scheme with diamond REA emblems, which those of us who model the 1940s can't use.

Richard Hendrickson


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Sep 20, 2005, at 6:18 AM, Daniel J Miller wrote:

List,

I believe that both the Walthers reefer and the BLI reefer are
available
in the same early REA paint scheme. Here's the Walthers car:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-5485
That's useful information, because Walthers' original announcement of
the express reefers showed only the later scheme with diamond REA
emblems, which those of us who model the 1940s can't use.
Also, for those of you who like to re-detail things and prefer to work with undecs, Microscale makes a good set to letter the recent Walthers, BLI or Branchline releases of REA equipment.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
 

Jon,

Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car
definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left
side of the door.

In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information
from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA
cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II
(for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with
the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't
distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car
would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff
lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is
made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car
number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet
for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on
both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the
left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black,
not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like
both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some
kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information
from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support
either model?

Dan Miller


From Thomas Olsen:

Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from
American Railway Express):
Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold,
may have been (at various times
Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint
(buff). Lettering was 5" extended
Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a
replacement for metallic paint
and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black.

Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and
Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams
gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to
tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off
when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I
was replaced in 1947 and again in
1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various
schemes lasted beyond introduction
dates before repainting.

In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53'
Express Reefers (Sunshine
Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars
specifically in REA service, agrees with the
Roseman book with some exceptions:
Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name
"Railway Express Agency" and other
lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that
the earlier schemes (wood sheathed
cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the
words "Express Refrigerator" and
car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is
the same location as the diagram in
the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the
letterboard to the left of
the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of
the car side, equidistant from the
door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right
car side side below the letterboard
with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book)
below, also to the right of the door.
The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed
from the lower right side.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

lettering color difference<
This may apply to a limited number of modelers. As I'm pre-war gold
leaf was pretty common however I would guess during and after the war it was
probably very limited, if used at all.

Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green as
on both the BLI and the Walthers cars<
This is interesting! Sometimes it's hard to tell the end paint on older
B&W photos as the light is striking the car at different angles. Would be
nice if there was company painting information someplace.
Maybe it's time for an updated book?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


oliver
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
Also, for those of you who like to re-detail things and prefer to work
with undecs, Microscale makes a good set to letter the recent
Walthers, BLI or Branchline releases of REA equipment.

Ted,
What is the consensus on the paint applied to either car by Walthers
and BLI? If one wanted to use undecs. what is the best choice for the
paint on these cars? I'm working on some PFE conversions and elected
to start with undecs to avoid having to match paint. Is this a better
approach for the REA cars?
regards
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

It's not apparent to me exactly what era you fellows are discussing but there are beaucoup
photos of these cars in RP Cyc Volumes 7 and 9, some even in color. Always work from a
photo or company diagram if you can. Unfortunately, B&W photos always leave you with as
many questions as they answer. IMHO: Roseman's work is not definitive. Note that his
book doesn't include a single REA Company lettering diagram with authenticated dates
and/or paint specs. Also, sorry for the plug again!!!!

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J Miller" <djmiller@b...> wrote:
Jon,

Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car
definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left
side of the door.

In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information
from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA
cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II
(for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with
the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't
distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car
would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff
lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is
made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car
number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet
for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on
both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the
left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black,
not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like
both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some
kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information
from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support
either model?

Dan Miller


From Thomas Olsen:

Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from
American Railway Express):
Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold,
may have been (at various times
Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint
(buff). Lettering was 5" extended
Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a
replacement for metallic paint
and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black.

Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and
Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams
gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to
tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off
when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I
was replaced in 1947 and again in
1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various
schemes lasted beyond introduction
dates before repainting.

In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53'
Express Reefers (Sunshine
Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars
specifically in REA service, agrees with the
Roseman book with some exceptions:
Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name
"Railway Express Agency" and other
lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that
the earlier schemes (wood sheathed
cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the
words "Express Refrigerator" and
car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is
the same location as the diagram in
the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the
letterboard to the left of
the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of
the car side, equidistant from the
door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right
car side side below the letterboard
with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book)
below, also to the right of the door.
The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed
from the lower right side.


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

lettering color difference<
This may apply to a limited number of modelers. As I'm pre-war gold
leaf was pretty common however I would guess during and after the war it was
probably very limited, if used at all.
Jon, it's my understanding that REA changed from gold leaf to Dulux Gold paint during WW II and never went back to gold leaf, so the Walthers lettering color is correct for the late '40s and early '50s.

Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green as
on both the BLI and the Walthers cars<
This is interesting! Sometimes it's hard to tell the end paint on older
B&W photos as the light is striking the car at different angles.
It's not clear where Roseman gets his information but, as Pat Wider writes, he is far from a reliable source. I've just been looking at some color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers, and in all cases the ends are clearly olive green, not black. I'd be very surprised if that's not true of these cars in the 1930s and early '40s (the "gold leaf lettering" era) as well.

Richard Hendrickson


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I've just been looking at
some color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the
late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers<

Richard,
Another question from those color shots (or any for that matter), were
there two numbers or one on the side.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS