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BLI vs. Walthers express reefers
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armprem
Hoppers?Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gatwood, Elden" <Elden.Gatwood@hdrinc.com> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:58 AM Subject: RE: [STMFC] RE: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers Jon and all;
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Guys;
I didn't say I believed them, just that they said it to me. I suspect that you all are correct that there is a bit of obfuscating going on here, as they continue to make a few of these cars available, regardless of their statements to the contrary; however, these blanket statements bother me, because they are not necessarily borne out by reality, but may be blindly followed by some of those that listen to that stuff. Just one producer that believes that a gondola might not sell potentially affects the depth of offerings in that department. And we need a more representative "package" of offerings to do what we all want to do; model a prototypically accurate fleet for our locale and era. Granted, to do so is close to impossible, but some of you are getting there! I am also glad to hear that some projects to come may be bucking this "conventional wisdom". Otherwise, I'd be back to buying mostly resin, and none too happy about the effect on my wallet, either. Thanks for the insights, all. Elden Gatwood
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Richard Hendrickson
On Sep 21, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:
In some of my recent interactions with manufacturers and sellers I amRelax, Elden. Facile generalizations about what sells and what doesn't are worthless, regardless of where they originate. It's obvious that the manufacturers of injection-molded HO scale freight car models have used up most of the cheap shots like AAR box cars and PFE reefers, so decisions about what prototypes to model are now harder to make and involve a lot of variables (some of them not at all obvious to either retailers or consumers). But notice that almost all of the major manufacturers have produced models of flat cars, gondolas, and tank cars, and continue to do so (e.g., the forthcoming Athearn 65' mill gons and Life-Like insulated Type 21 tank cars). I can also assure you that all of them are hard at work on R&D for new products (some of which will surprise you) and are seriously gathering data on prototypes for possible future projects. The choices they will make aren't easy to predict, but common sense dictates that we won't get models of odd-ball prototypes owned by obscure railroads (e.g. BA&P wood sheathed box cars), nor will we get models of every freight car the Pennsy ever owned, as is apparently hoped for by some of the more dedicated (=deluded?) SPFs. However, barring profound changes in the economics of producing injection-molded scale models, you can count on it that there will continue to be a variety of new models, quality will continue to improve, and prices will continue to float upward.
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
If flat cars don't sell, then who do we have to thank forSome of what vendors tell you is to make your eyes glaze over and your legs take you away. Some of it is natural "protective coloration" to disguise actual intentions. And some of it is plain old hot air, which I have sometimes thought is devised on the spot to see how a modeler reacts. From Tim's list, I'd say I doubt (1) in most cases and would strongly vote for (2). Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Elden
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If flat cars don't sell, then who do we have to thank for Proto, Red Caboose, Walthers, Atlas, and Intermountain flat cars? And Athearn recently spiffed up their TOFC cars and is offering the old MDC cars with R-T-R loads. I'm not convinced that (1) vendors know what they're talking about or (2) even if they do, would they reveal what they are really thinking to a consumer with access to email lists? After all, we've all heard "Nobody cares about prototype accuracy" "Nobody cares about that level of detail" "Nobody will buy a plastic freight car for $40" and so on and on... and the next thing you know, someone surprises us with an amazing new model. I can't keep up with all the new stuff, and I'm going to have to sell off a good amount of older models that have been replaced with far better models. I would have thought the market was so saturated that we'd be seeing far fewer new releases, but the opposite appears to be true. Where it is all going I do not know, but someone is buying almost everything that is made. Tim O'Connor
Jon and all;
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Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
Jon and all;
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In some of my recent interactions with manufacturers and sellers I am also being told very disturbing stuff like "flat cars don't sell", "gondolas don't sell", and "tank cars don't sell". Is this true? If what they say, that boxcars and reefers are the only ones that generate a good enough profit to interest them, is what is guiding decision-making in regards to injection-molded plastic kits, then realistically, we should probably not expect that any of them is going to do anything BUT that in the future. The question is; what is left in that realm that a major manufacturer would consider worthy enough to do? If we can eliminate flats, gons, and tank cars, what would a plastic maker consider from what is left on the table? Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Miller Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:22 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers had been availableuntil last winter from Sunshine Models in urethane.< I believe that certain models that both Sunshine and Westerfield have in resin will be done in injection plastic. The guesses are which ones, when, and in my lifetime<G>. Plastic model makers try and guess which ones will sell enough of to have a profit. We are lucky in that we are seeing well done cars that we never expected to see. How long this lasts will be anybody's guess. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS Yahoo! Groups Links
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
had been availableuntil last winter from Sunshine Models in urethane.< I believe that certain models that both Sunshine and Westerfield have in resin will be done in injection plastic. The guesses are which ones, when, and in my lifetime<G>. Plastic model makers try and guess which ones will sell enough of to have a profit. We are lucky in that we are seeing well done cars that we never expected to see. How long this lasts will be anybody's guess. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
Richard, Jon, and others,
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Glad that's straightened out, and glad that (both!) the cars do appear to be correct. Thanks for all of the information. Dan Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:34 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Digest Number 2676 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Jon, the lettering isn't always visible in the video (the REA cars were often quite grimy, but the evidence from the videos as well as from the still photos I have indicates that the practice of applying "Express Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars. Richard Hendrickson
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Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
The interesting thing is that both the ACF 1947 Welded cars (now
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available from Branchline) and the Wood Sheathed General American cars (now available from Broadway Limited and Walther's) had been available until last winter from Sunshine Models in urethane. Martin discontinued them when he ran out of trucks and instruction sheets. Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 tmolsen@udel.edu Jon Miller wrote:
"ExpressRefrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated
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Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
In regard to the information on the REA equipment that I posted from the Roseman Book and the Sunshine instructions, the Branchline website also listed in-service dates for the red-white REA logo and other information regarding when changes were inaugurated for each painting and lettering phase that were mentioned in the September 2005 issue of the Keystone Modeler. I had mentioned this review to Ed Hawkins as he is still researching the inception dates. Here is his reply regarding Branchline's website information in regard to the red and white REA logo and it's initial in-service date:
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" Thomas, I've seen BT's dates as these are the same as given on their web site. I don't buy their 1953 date when the red and white diamond was first applied. My belief is that the date is 1955 based on accurately dated photos. This is the same year when the first batch of 500 steel cars came from General American (the Walthers steel express reefer with riveted sides). I still haven't come across any REA painting and stenciling drawings to confirm the date when this revision occurred. Ed" This is a vexing situation for those of us that model in the early 1950s. Part of the problem with photographs of these cars is the same that was talked about on this list in the last several weeks. That is the lack of dates and locations on many of the photographs that are in circulation from many of the people who are selling photographs at train shows and historical meets. As time passes and the original photos and negatives change hands, many of these photographs have gone undocumented and it is impossible to date them correctly. I have seen this many times over in hard and soft bound publications while I was making an index of photos of various classes of PRR locomotives and their locations with regard to my modeling period and territory. Credit being given to the wrong photographer and in many cases, not only is the date bogus, but the location and direction of the loco and/or train is also bogus. I have found many instances where the engine numbers changed from one publication to another, although it was the same locomotive photograph. Tom Olsen 7 Boundary Road, West Branch Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479 (302) 738-4292 tmolsen@udel.edu Daniel J Miller wrote:
Jon,
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Ed Hawkins
On Tuesday, September 20, 2005, at 09:32 PM, Randy wrote:
The main differences I can see between the Walthers & the BranchlineRandy, I think there's some confusion on what the intent of the subject matter is. The subject was comparing the Broadway Limited vs. the Walthers versions of the wood express refrigerator cars built by General American Car Co. in the late 1920s to about 1930. These models are supposed to be scale replicas of the same prototype car, thus the geometry should be identical if done correctly. There can and should be differences in appliances and such, due to upgrades and modifications that were made over their service lives, including different types of trucks. Branchline's REA and ACL express refrigerator model is based on an entirely different prototype car, which is a welded all-steel car built by AC&F in 1947-48. Walthers makes another REA model that is based on a riveted all-steel car built by GATC in 1955 and 1957. These two models are supposed to be different. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Randy
The main differences I can see between the Walthers & the Branchline
REA Express Reefers are 1. Different trucks 2. The roofs are shaped different, Walthers appears to be more rounded. 3. The ends are different. Where Walthers appear smooth, Branchlines are ribbed. This is going by the picture on Walthers website & the Branchline car I have in front of me. Branchline's pictures are on their website & match the car I have. http://www.branchline- trains.com/blueprint/expressreefers/express_reefers.htm Randy Jones SLC UT
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
"ExpressRefrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.< Then that would make the BLI good for prewar and the Walthers good for postwar. Glad to know I purchased the right ones<VBG>. Also it means they really aren't the same time period, just very close. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Richard Hendrickson
On Sep 20, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Jon Miller wrote:
Jon, the lettering isn't always visible in the video (the REA cars were often quite grimy, but the evidence from the videos as well as from the still photos I have indicates that the practice of applying "Express Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.I've just been looking atsome color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the Richard Hendrickson
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
I've just been looking atsome color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers< Richard, Another question from those color shots (or any for that matter), were there two numbers or one on the side. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Richard Hendrickson
On Sep 20, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Jon Miller wrote:
Jon, it's my understanding that REA changed from gold leaf to Dulux Gold paint during WW II and never went back to gold leaf, so the Walthers lettering color is correct for the late '40s and early '50s.lettering color difference<This may apply to a limited number of modelers. As I'm pre-war gold It's not clear where Roseman gets his information but, as Pat Wider writes, he is far from a reliable source. I've just been looking at some color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers, and in all cases the ends are clearly olive green, not black. I'd be very surprised if that's not true of these cars in the 1930s and early '40s (the "gold leaf lettering" era) as well.Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green ason both the BLI and the Walthers cars< Richard Hendrickson
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Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
It's not apparent to me exactly what era you fellows are discussing but there are beaucoup
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photos of these cars in RP Cyc Volumes 7 and 9, some even in color. Always work from a photo or company diagram if you can. Unfortunately, B&W photos always leave you with as many questions as they answer. IMHO: Roseman's work is not definitive. Note that his book doesn't include a single REA Company lettering diagram with authenticated dates and/or paint specs. Also, sorry for the plug again!!!! Pat Wider
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J Miller" <djmiller@b...> wrote:
Jon,
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oliver
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
Also, for those of you who like to re-detail things and prefer to workWalthers, BLI or Branchline releases of REA equipment. Ted, What is the consensus on the paint applied to either car by Walthers and BLI? If one wanted to use undecs. what is the best choice for the paint on these cars? I'm working on some PFE conversions and elected to start with undecs to avoid having to match paint. Is this a better approach for the REA cars? regards Stefan Lerché Duncan, BC
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
lettering color difference<This may apply to a limited number of modelers. As I'm pre-war gold leaf was pretty common however I would guess during and after the war it was probably very limited, if used at all. Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green ason both the BLI and the Walthers cars< This is interesting! Sometimes it's hard to tell the end paint on older B&W photos as the light is striking the car at different angles. Would be nice if there was company painting information someplace. Maybe it's time for an updated book? Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
Jon,
Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left side of the door. In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II (for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support either model? Dan Miller From Thomas Olsen: Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from American Railway Express): Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold, may have been (at various times Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint (buff). Lettering was 5" extended Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a replacement for metallic paint and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black. Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I was replaced in 1947 and again in 1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various schemes lasted beyond introduction dates before repainting. In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53' Express Reefers (Sunshine Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars specifically in REA service, agrees with the Roseman book with some exceptions: Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name "Railway Express Agency" and other lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that the earlier schemes (wood sheathed cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the words "Express Refrigerator" and car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is the same location as the diagram in the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the letterboard to the left of the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of the car side, equidistant from the door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right car side side below the letterboard with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book) below, also to the right of the door. The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed from the lower right side.
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