Topics

Wine car ops


Andreas Kühnpast <Andreas.Kuehnpast@...>
 

raildata@aol.com wrote:

I recall seeing multiple compartment wine car in Pennsylvania during the
1940s. Don't recall reporting marks, etc. but the stuff was rebottled as "Virgina
Dare" by the Brrokside distilling Co.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO
I have found out that a former customer of "my shortline", Vermont's Barre & Chelsea,
was also involved in a similar kind of activity: Calmont Beverage Co. in Barre, VT
started importing wine from California in 1941 and bottled it in Vermont. They
obviously were the first company to do so in Vermont.

The company website (www.calmontbeverage.com/index.htm) states: "... came up with the
idea to bring barreled wine to Vermont, via rail, and bottle it here under the
Calmont brand name (a contraction of California/Vermont)." Would wine have been sent
in barrels in reefers or would it have been transported in tank cars?

In the "Barre & Chelsea Industrial Guide" issued in August 1953 Calmont Beverage is
listed as having a B&C spur track and the main commodity received was "malt
beverages" (i.e. beer). Could this be an indication that (bulk) wine transport had
stopped by that date? Or was it just an indication of more important beer traffic?

In the past we had been discussing grape shipments to Barre, VT for DIY wine making.
When would these shipments have ended, when the bulk shipment of wine to Vermont
started in 1941? Or did wine (and grappa!) making in Vermont communities with a high
percentage of Italians (like South Ryegate) continue after that date?

Getting thirsty from this topic...

Andreas Kuehnpast


raildata@...
 

I recall seeing multiple compartment wine car in Pennsylvania during the
1940s. Don't recall reporting marks, etc. but the stuff was rebottled as "Virgina
Dare" by the Brrokside distilling Co.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


PBowers <waiting@...>
 

While the wine car might be an interesting conversation piece, I would expect it was operated over few routes. Unless your modelled railway has a winery or bottling facility, or is on the route in between is it a logical car to have? For interst sake, how many routes would these cars be found on?

(Why do I whine about wine cars?? Whine not??)

Peter Bowers


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Roger Parry <uncleroger@...>
 

The wine cars may have had few origination points but many termination points.

On Sep 21, 2005, at 7:50 PM, PBowers wrote:

While the wine car might be an interesting conversation piece, I would
expect it was operated over few routes. Unless your modelled railway has a
winery or bottling facility, or is on the route in between is it a logical
car to have? For interst sake, how many routes would these cars be found on?

(Why do I whine about wine cars?? Whine not??)

Peter Bowers


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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 21, 2005, at 4:50 PM, PBowers wrote:

While the wine car might be an interesting conversation piece, I would
expect it was operated over few routes. Unless your modelled railway has a
winery or bottling facility, or is on the route in between is it a logical
car to have? For interst sake, how many routes would these cars be found on?
It's true that glass-lined wine tank cars were not numerous. However, there were single, three, and four compartment wine tank cars as well as six compartment cars, and the total of all types added up to hundreds of cars. General American, Shippers Car Line, and North American all owned them and leased them to a variety of wine shippers. In addition to a sizable number of California vintners, lessees of wine tank cars included, for example, Ambrose of Kansas City; Pirrone & Sons of Garfield, NJ; and K. Arekelian of Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York, who shipped wine east in bulk for local bottling. Taylor and other upstate New York wine producers had California wines shipped east (in unmarked cars) to be blended with the local product because the growing season was too short there to bring up the sugar to desirable levels, and I've been told (though I've seen no direct evidence) that the same practice was followed by wineries in Virginia and other eastern states as well.

Wine tank cars would certainly not have been seen on branch lines in places like Kansas or Georgia. But there is abundant photographic evidence of them in the trains of the major transcontinental carriers that served California such as the Santa Fe, Union Pacific/C&NW, and Southern Pacific/Rock Island/T&NO/SSW, sometimes several of them at one time, en route to widely scattered destinations. Indeed, in some parts of California wine tank cars, like helium tank cars, were more commonly seen than coal hoppers, and much more commonly than milk reefers (which were, in fact, non-existent in the far west), difficult as that may be for easterners to imagine. If we can get injection-molded styrene "conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Not entirely useless. Chateau Martin owned at least one Pfaudler steel 40'
car, which I shot in Pine Bluff, AK. #CMWX 1008

Sadly, the date falls outside the range of this discussion group (Jan 75).
--

Brian Ehni

If we can get injection-molded styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why not
six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson


PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 11:38 PM 9/21/05, you wrote: If we can get injection-molded styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why not
six compartment wine tank cars? - Richard Hendrickson
Richard,
Thank you for your excellent response! I have no problem with the production of models of any car. I also now better understand that the car fits well into more areas than I thought it would. Maybe not into Canada but definitely into the areas you mention.

I know that each area can claim cars that would never fit into a lot of areas. Before the local Canadian Pacific line to Owen Sound was abandoned we had "L" cars used for transporting glass. These assigned service cars were mostly MP cars, 6 MP and 1 CP car if I remember correctly. These cars were all modified bulk end flat cars. I doubt if this one has been modelled often.

Outside of these cars, about the only conversation piece in our area was a vinegar car.

I guess it all comes down to if someone is willing to produce a car, even if it fits on to only one line, someone will buy it. Being a hobby we can be as prototypical or off the wall as we want to be. What is obscure to one is common to another. One of the many things that makes this hobby so interesting!

Peter Bowers


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Old Sourdough <pmeaton@...>
 

At 10:44 PM 9/21/2005 -0500, Brian wrote:
"Not entirely useless. Chateau Martin owned at least one Pfaudler steel 40'
car, which I shot in Pine Bluff, AK. #CMWX 1008

Sadly, the date falls outside the range of this discussion group (Jan 75)."
--

Brian Ehni
======================
Brian,

I wish that I had known you were in Alaska photographing wine cars. I
would have shown you a few other oddities that your camera may have
liked. Many of those would have fit the time frame of this list, even in
1975. I would have had a great deal of trouble finding Pine Bluff,
though. I don't think we have a town by that name here.

Paul Eaton
The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Wine tank cars would certainly not have been seen on branch lines in
places like Kansas or Georgia. But there is abundant photographic
evidence of them in the trains of the major transcontinental carriers
that served California such as the Santa Fe, Union Pacific/C&NW, and
Southern Pacific/Rock Island/T&NO/SSW, sometimes several of them at one
time, en route to widely scattered destinations.
I wonder sometimes whether the "abundant photographic evidence" is more related to the oddity of a car than to quantity.

Tim Gilbert


ljack70117@...
 

On Sep 22, 2005, at 4:36 AM, Tim Gilbert wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:



Wine tank cars would certainly not have been seen on branch lines in
places like Kansas or Georgia. But there is abundant photographic
evidence of them in the trains of the major transcontinental carriers
that served California such as the Santa Fe, Union Pacific/C&NW, and
Southern Pacific/Rock Island/T&NO/SSW, sometimes several of them at one
time, en route to widely scattered destinations.
I wonder sometimes whether the "abundant photographic evidence" is more
related to the oddity of a car than to quantity.

Tim Gilbert
We had one come through the Emporia Ks yard on the Santa Fe one night. It was leaking. Interesting night that night.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end to end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them.


armprem
 

Now if beer had been transported in tank cars,I might be
interested.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gilbert" <tgilbert@sunlink.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops


Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Wine tank cars would certainly not have been seen on branch lines in
places like Kansas or Georgia. But there is abundant photographic
evidence of them in the trains of the major transcontinental carriers
that served California such as the Santa Fe, Union Pacific/C&NW, and
Southern Pacific/Rock Island/T&NO/SSW, sometimes several of them at one
time, en route to widely scattered destinations.
I wonder sometimes whether the "abundant photographic evidence" is more
related to the oddity of a car than to quantity.

Tim Gilbert





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Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Obviously, I made a mistake. AR is the abbreviation for Arkansas, not AK!

LOL!

(At least I know someone is reading these!!!!)
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

From: Old Sourdough <pmeaton@gci.net>
Reply-To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:17:35 -0800
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops


At 10:44 PM 9/21/2005 -0500, Brian wrote:
"Not entirely useless. Chateau Martin owned at least one Pfaudler steel 40'
car, which I shot in Pine Bluff, AK. #CMWX 1008

Sadly, the date falls outside the range of this discussion group (Jan 75)."
--

Brian Ehni
======================
Brian,

I wish that I had known you were in Alaska photographing wine cars. I
would have shown you a few other oddities that your camera may have
liked. Many of those would have fit the time frame of this list, even in
1975. I would have had a great deal of trouble finding Pine Bluff,
though. I don't think we have a town by that name here.

Paul Eaton
The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A


Tim O'Connor
 

I wonder sometimes whether the "abundant photographic evidence"
is more related to the oddity of a car than to quantity.
Tim Gilbert
Of course! But the fact remains that bulk wine travelled quite far
and wide for the reasons Richard explained, and so the cars may be
uncommon, but nevertheless -did- travel many routes. In fact there
are still wine tank cars in service today, but they are big, black
anonymous looking 25,000 gallon jobs (e.g. CWCX 00005, photographed
at Canandiagua Wine in NY in 2004).

Tim O'Connor


Miller,Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Brian,

Is shooting a 40' Pfaudler milk car like shooting an intruder, or like
shooting the bull ? ;-)


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Brian Paul Ehni
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:44 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops

Not entirely useless. Chateau Martin owned at least one Pfaudler steel
40'
car, which I shot in Pine Bluff, AK. #CMWX 1008

Sadly, the date falls outside the range of this discussion group (Jan
75).
--

Brian Ehni


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Larry has already mentioned one leaking in a yard; how do you think they got
that way?

Seriously, I was using a camera at the time.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

From: "Miller,Andrew S." <asmiller@mitre.org>
Reply-To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:53:35 -0400
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Conversation: [STMFC] Wine car ops
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Wine car ops

Brian,

Is shooting a 40' Pfaudler milk car like shooting an intruder, or like
shooting the bull ? ;-)


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Brian Paul Ehni
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:44 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops

Not entirely useless. Chateau Martin owned at least one Pfaudler steel
40'
car, which I shot in Pine Bluff, AK. #CMWX 1008

Sadly, the date falls outside the range of this discussion group (Jan
75).
--

Brian Ehni


ljack70117@...
 

On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:47 AM, armand wrote:

Now if beer had been transported in tank cars,I might be
interested.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gilbert" <tgilbert@sunlink.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops
It is is it not? Coors ships a lot of beer to the east coast for bottling. How does it go there? Although you use the term Beer very very loosely when you use it with the name Coors.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


Miller,Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

If you believe their current TV ad, they ship their beer in a special
stainless steel train with a bullet-nose steam engine leaking
refrigerant from every car!


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:36 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops


On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:47 AM, armand wrote:

Now if beer had been transported in tank cars,I might be
interested.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gilbert" <tgilbert@sunlink.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Wine car ops
It is is it not? Coors ships a lot of beer to the east coast for
bottling. How does it go there? Although you use the term Beer very
very loosely when you use it with the name Coors.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 21, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Andreas Kühnpast wrote:

....Would wine have been sent in barrels in reefers or would it have
been transported in tank cars?
Both, depending on what the consignee wanted. Relatively small lots of
several different wines would have gone in barrels in refrigerator cars
(which weren't iced, or at least weren't iced much, since the objective
was to maintain a constant "cellar temperature" around ±60° F). Even
the separate compartments in a six compartment wine tank car held more
than 1,000 gals. each, and that's a LOT of wine. Relatively few
consignees were in a position to have bulk wine shipped in such large
quantities.

Richard Hendrickson


Mr Charles burns
 

Hello Tim ,All
There was some discussion of winecars on this list a
while back, and one post {gatx417?}had a Bob Morris
photo of Fresno with many wine cars in view. So for
the central valley in the 50s-60s at least,wine cars
were not an oddity. This is enough of an excuse for me
to build a 6 dome wine car for my N scale 64'
Coastline layout.
Charlie Burns

--- Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net> wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Wine tank cars would certainly not have been seen
on branch lines in
places like Kansas or Georgia. But there is
abundant photographic
evidence of them in the trains of the major
transcontinental carriers
that served California such as the Santa Fe, Union
Pacific/C&NW, and
Southern Pacific/Rock Island/T&NO/SSW, sometimes
several of them at one
time, en route to widely scattered destinations.
I wonder sometimes whether the "abundant
photographic evidence" is more
related to the oddity of a car than to quantity.

Tim Gilbert



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Tim O'Connor
 

Couldn't a six-compartment tank car make as many as six deliveries
to customers? I forget the name for this type of tarriff but I think that
cars could make multiple stops to drop partial cargos. So if there were
a small bottler in Gridley who buys wine in 1,000 gallon lots (enough
for 1,000 large jugs of wine), then that might work... If you think about
it, a small town of 1,000 people on average consumes somewhere
around that amount of wine every year.

Tim O'Connor

Because it developed a hotbox enroute from California to NY and had to
be cut out of the train.
Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----

I am open to any suggestion as to just why a six compartment wine tank
car would be spotted on the house track in Gridley. Any ideas?
-- Bill Keene