Topics

Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops


Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why
> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California


Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why
> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California
Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those times
when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt


Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are
entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why
> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California
Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those times
when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt
This is getting ridiculous. PEBKAC means "problem exists between
keyboard AND chair." I should stop posting and only read.

Walt


al_brown03
 

Remember also that in the time frame of this list, industrial
activity was much more concentrated in the Northeast than it is any
more. John Nehrich has commented eloquently on this, from the
opposite perspective: wishing to model the Northeast with its
industrial base still vigorous.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...>
wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...>
wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded
styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are
entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western
RRs, why
> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars
like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout
the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of
the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light
concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in
the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very
parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi
and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California
Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi
and
SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those
times
when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 22, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Walter M. Clark wrote:

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.
Such broad-brush generalizations almost always miss the mark, as they
do here. Walter is assuming that northeastern modelers only model
northeastern railroads, which is far from true; many members of this
list who live in the northeast model western railroads (e.g. Tim
O'Connor). Conversely many who live out west model eastern lines (e.g.
Greg Martin). So the issue isn't where modelers live but, regardless
of where they live, which railroads make their hearts beat fonder.

In fact, model manufacturers have, by now, a whole lot of experience
with which railroads have strong followings among modelers and which
ones don't, and that experience factors heavily into the choices they
make of prototypes to model. Anyone in their sales departments will
tell you that, if it's painted and lettered for the Pennsy or the Santa
Fe, it will sell like gangbusters, whether it's an accurate model or
not. Other formerly large and important RRs seem to score high on the
boredom scale, for some reason; examples include New York Central,
Louisville & Nashville, and almost all of the RRs in the south and
southeast (and before devotees of those RRs write angry responses to
this observation, let me point out that those aren't my personal
judgments, just what I'm told by people in the industry about their
sales figures).

As for parochialism, there may be plenty of that in the northeast but
it's also rampant in the south, midwest, southwest, northwest, far
west, etc. There are a lot of modelers out there in all parts of North
America who will tell you that, for example, because they model the
Santa Fe or the Atlantic Coast Line, they're not the least bit
interested in freight cars owned by the Pennsy, B&O, or IC, to say
nothing of the Canadian RRs or any of the smaller RRs like the Rutland,
Birmingham Southern, or SP&S. Never mind that there's ample
documentation showing that cars from all of the above ran in
interchange on the Santa Fe and the ACL during the steam era.

Those of us who subscribe to lists like this one tend to forget that a
majority of those who buy model freight cars have never quite gotten
over their early experience with tinplate toy trains and tend to be
influenced less by prototypical accuracy than by a fondness for odd
road names (Ann Arbor; Quanah, Acme & Pacific; Bangor & Aroostook),
garish P/L schemes, and a host of other motivations we know not of and,
in some cases, can't even imagine. That's slowly changing as prototype
modeling moves more into the hobby's mainstream, but it's still a fact
that manufacturers ignore at their peril.

Given the unpredictable vagaries of the model railroad market place,
it's astonishing how much good stuff (and how little junk) we're
getting these days, with more on the way. Even "conversation pieces"
like Pfaudler milk cars and, quite possibly, somewhere down the road,
six compartment wine tank cars.

Richard Hendrickson


cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded
styrene
"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers,
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this - especially given
some list members obsession with correct terminology - but
there is no such thing as a Pfaulder milk "reefer" -- or even
refrigerator car. They are, in fact, tank cars (says so on the side).

Hey they have two tanks, does that mean they're the bovine
equivalent of a two dome tank car???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, there were a bunch of reasons I decided to do a milk
car while I was at InterMountain -- primarily because the
18-20,000 folks who showed up at the Springfield show
demonstrated an overwhelming interest in northeastern
railroads -- especially New England railroads, not those western
lines like the NYC, PRR, or B&O . . . and just think of the reaction
of the eastern folks when we mentioned a Santa Fe stock car . . .
you'd think I was confiscating lolly pops . . .

From what I understand both the milk car and stock car are
selling well, which creates money to pay for the company's next
tooling project which may be a car appropriate for those Indian
country lines . . . or another car closer to the hearts of those back
east. Fortunately I don't have to pick them anymore -- just buy
them -- or not . . ..

Marty McGuirk


Tim O'Connor
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote

Other formerly large and important RRs seem to score high on the
boredom scale, for some reason; examples include New York Central,
Louisville & Nashville, and almost all of the RRs in the south and
southeast (and before devotees of those RRs write angry responses to
this observation, let me point out that those aren't my personal
judgments, just what I'm told by people in the industry about their
sales figures).
And to underscore that point, the other day I was watching a Shoreham
Shops L&N Pullman, nicely painted, on Ebay -- and it sold for less than
$90!! A similar SP or PRR or MILW car would have sold for 2x as much.
And a Lambert Reading box car, also nicely painted, went for $45... So
roadnames really do make a difference.


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson notes:

"Walter is assuming that northeastern modelers only model
northeastern railroads, which is far from true; many members of this
list who live in the northeast model western railroads (e.g. Tim
O'Connor). Conversely many who live out west model eastern lines (e.g.
Greg Martin)."

True enough. Oddly, I generally assume that those that live in a region are modeling that region. Thus, I was surprised to find such as Greg Martin and Ted Culotta. Bruce Smith...in Auburn, Alabama, models Pennsy, Jim Udaly in KC models C&O, Andy Sperandeo in Wisconsin models Cajon Pass, Jared Harper in GA models the ATSF in Kansas...and Jeff Aley models various RRs in Kansas. So...here I am in FL modeling Wyoming, Marty Megregian here is doing Utah, Tom Wilson in central FL does the P&WV and his neighbor John Wilkes does the Southern & L&N plus Dan Zugelter south of me doing C&O in WV. So...does anyone model their area? Well...there are two in FL doing FEC.

"In fact, model manufacturers have, by now, a whole lot of experience
with which railroads have strong followings among modelers and which
ones don't, and that experience factors heavily into the choices they
make of prototypes to model. Anyone in their sales departments will
tell you that, if it's painted and lettered for the Pennsy or the Santa
Fe, it will sell like gangbusters, whether it's an accurate model or
not. Other formerly large and important RRs seem to score high on the
boredom scale, for some reason; examples include New York Central,
Louisville & Nashville, and almost all of the RRs in the south and
southeast (and before devotees of those RRs write angry responses to
this observation, let me point out that those aren't my personal
judgments, just what I'm told by people in the industry about their
sales figures)."

I have to wonder if some of this developed during the 1970/80 brass steam loco market analysis. Recent plastic steam loco generation seems to have gone in a somewhat different direction. Builders seem to have decided that USRA engines would provide more of a broad based market. Frankly, I think they were wrong. Buyers not particularly drawn to a particular RR are...IMO...driven more to "asthetic" designs perhaps but I believe more so to well detailed and good running models. Hence, they'll go for anything well done. Prototype modelers, however, are more drawn to models that are accurate and accurate for their time period. Very few USRA engines were NOT modified by the late 40's early '50's time period. Hence, most USRA models aren't really well suited to the serious prototype modeler...unless they intend to bash it. That's not to say that frt car market studies are based on the brass steam loco market of the '80's/'90's, but there might be some correlation.

Mike Brock


William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Richard,

I just do not think that I am going to find a milk car (Pfaulder or
otherwise) or a six compartment wine tank car trailing behind the M-177
as it rolls into Gridley, Kansas.

What cars a modeler selects to purchase may depend on what bit of
railroad that person is modeling. In my case, I have little room for a
layout and the one under construction (early stages) is a simple branch
line with just a modest amount of traffic. One scheduled mixed train
(daily except Sunday). It is the size of the layout, the prototype
being modeled, and the modeler's budget that are (in the world of
Prototype Modeling) the major factors in the decision to purchase a
specific piece of rolling stock.

I am open to any suggestion as to just why a six compartment wine tank
car would be spotted on the house track in Gridley. Any ideas?

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Sep 22, 2005, at 6:18 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

[big snip]
Given the unpredictable vagaries of the model railroad market place,
it's astonishing how much good stuff (and how little junk) we're
getting these days, with more on the way.  Even "conversation pieces"
like Pfaudler milk cars and, quite possibly, somewhere down the road,
six compartment wine tank cars.

Richard Hendrickson



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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 22, 2005, at 9:28 PM, William Keene wrote:

Richard,

I just do not think that I am going to find a milk car (Pfaulder or
otherwise) or a six compartment wine tank car trailing behind the M-177
as it rolls into Gridley, Kansas.

What cars a modeler selects to purchase may depend on what bit of
railroad that person is modeling. In my case, I have little room for a
layout and the one under construction (early stages) is a simple branch
line with just a modest amount of traffic. One scheduled mixed train
(daily except Sunday). It is the size of the layout, the prototype
being modeled, and the modeler's budget that are (in the world of
Prototype Modeling) the major factors in the decision to purchase a
specific piece of rolling stock.

I am open to any suggestion as to just why a six compartment wine tank
car would be spotted on the house track in Gridley. Any ideas?
Bill, if I were you I wouldn't be in the market for a wine tank car, either. And the same is true for many other modelers (Jared Harper comes immediately to mind, who models the Santa Fe's Alma branch, also in Kansas). But such a model is very appealing to those of who model any of the RRs that served California, or any of the transcontinental main lines east of the Rockies. I suppose the point of all this is that good models are now available for most of the freight cars everyone needs to have, regardless of the type of RR they model and its location (the AAR standard and recommended practice designs, Pennsy X29, etc.). So manufacturers are now beginning to look at less "universal" car types which may have been owned by only one or two RRs, such as the MILW horizontal-rib and B&O wagon-top box cars, or may have been largely or entirely confined to only one part of the country, such as the Pfaudler milk cars, or to a particular kind of service, such as the wine tank cars. In such cases, choosing prototypes that will be popular enough to sell well is something of a crap shoot, and the choices they make aren't going to please everyone.

Richard Hendrickson


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Sep 22, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Frankly, I think
they were wrong. Buyers not particularly drawn to a particular RR
are...IMO...driven more to "asthetic" designs perhaps but I believe more so
to well detailed and good running models. Hence, they'll go for anything
well done.

I may end up in jail for this off-topic comment, but it's all in the interest of good, but inexpensive steam. Your reasoning is exactly why I am surprised their has not been a model of the New Haven I-5 in styrene yet, given that some of the choices have been fairly suspect in terms of broad appeal, but well done as you mention. (I am secretly hopeful that some manufacturer is reading this and nodding in agreement). However, in the interest of mandatory content, the freight car pendulum has been swinging towards the prototype end (and has been for awhile) as Richard pointed out. That's a case where the toy train segment benefits without even being aware of their good fortune. Look at the current crop of layouts profiled in the magazines and even the ones built by people who couldn't tell a box car from a reefer all have many prototypically accurate cars. It's by accident, but it is still good to see rather than the same five Athearn cars that we saw on layouts 20 years ago. Even UP layouts in Florida have a few accurate models on them, even of N&W hoppers.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 7:32 AM, Ted Culotta wrote:

....... I am surprised their has not been a model of the New Haven I-5 in
styrene yet......
I am really losing my ability to think clearly. That should be "there" not "their".

Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


John Huey <mancosbob@...>
 

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:50:00 -0400
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops

Richard Hendrickson notes:

"Walter is assuming that northeastern modelers only model
northeastern railroads, which is far from true; many members of this
list who live in the northeast model western railroads (e.g. Tim
O'Connor). Conversely many who live out west model eastern lines (e.g.
Greg Martin)."



Yeah, I concur, I model the SP and I live in Southern California, but I also
model power from a place about as far East as you can get, and still be
speaking English . . . . Cotton Belt ! Yeah Baby !

Seriously, I probably have too many Eastern cars like, NYC and Pennsy, also
other items from that local, why . . . . I just like them. I model cars
that I like, from railroads that interest me.

Anybody looking for a Western Prototype Car to build, the world need a good
prototype SP Bulk-head Flat, like the one on page 334 of SP FRt CArs Vol.3,
one you can actually get when you call up to order it . . . . just a hint.
Yeah, I've called 4 or 5 times trying to get "THAT" one and keep getting the
run around from "Don't Bug Me Hobbies".

Bulk head flats, in fact flat cars in general RULE ! Make more . . . .we'll
buy them !

John Huey


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

John Huey wrote:
"Seriously, I probably have too many Eastern cars like, NYC and Pennsy,
also other items from that local[e], why . . . . I just like them."

Actually (as Tim Gilbert and others have been been posting over the
past three years), you probably DON'T have too many NYC or PRR
boxcars. The single most under-represented boxcars on the vast
majority of steam to transition era layouts are the New York Central
USRA-design steel boxcar (Westerfield 2900 series kits in HO for the
most common 8 ft 7 in IH cars), and the Pennsylvania Railroad Class X29
boxcar (Red Caboose in HO). These were both huge fleers (> 25,000 cars
in both cases), and they went everywhere on the North American standard
gauge rail network.


Ben Hom


SUVCWORR@...
 

I am going to venture a guess that will bring the wrath of God down upon me
from some quarters. There seems to be more of a correlation between those
roads modeled and those with active, and responsive historical societies and those
roads whose cars get manufactured and active, responsive historical
societies. The operative part being "responsive." From my own personal experience I
know I can e-mail the PRRT&HS and at a minimum get a response telling me 1) who
to contact for the information, 2) where I can get it myself, or 3) the
society doesn't have the answer I am seeking. And this was the case before the
PRRT&HS saw the light and began to earnestly look at modeling as a means of
expressing and maintaining the history of the PRR. On the other hand, I can e-mail
questions to the NYC historical society and 3-4 years later never even get a
"we don't know." This is just one example. Look at the popular roads and
then look at the level of response, service and professionalism of the related
historical society. A similar look at the less popular road will show a less or
non-responsive society.

Rich Orr


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 22, 11:50pm, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops
I have to wonder if some of this developed during the 1970/80 brass
steam
loco market analysis.
Mike,

I have heard similar descriptions of what roadnames sell (and
which don't) from a STMFC manufacturer. In fact, we were both in Cocoa
Beach at the time. The point is that even current data shows that there
are some roads that have a loyal following, and others that don't. The
size of the prototype is not necessarily a good indicator of the
popularity, and manufacturers will help themselves if they keep that in
mind.

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?

As an example of a strange situation, what is your take on the reasons
why the NYC has so few folks (and thank goodness, some of the few of
them are active on this list) actively pursuing NYC layouts, product
introductions, and information dissemination efforts? Or is this a
verboten subject? No, I am certainly not an NYC-hater! I am just
mystified.

While some would say that a RR like the Santa Fe has a large following
because of the beauty of their paint jobs, equipment, and locale, it
does not explain everything. And, it certainly does not explain the
popularity of the PRR (come on; Brunswick Green versus Lightning
Stripes?). Is this related to the historical societies? What is the
story?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
jaley
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:02 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops

On Sep 22, 11:50pm, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops
I have to wonder if some of this developed during the 1970/80 brass
steam
loco market analysis.
Mike,

I have heard similar descriptions of what roadnames sell (and
which don't) from a STMFC manufacturer. In fact, we were both in Cocoa
Beach at the time. The point is that even current data shows that there
are some roads that have a loyal following, and others that don't. The
size of the prototype is not necessarily a good indicator of the
popularity, and manufacturers will help themselves if they keep that in
mind.

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533




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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?
Elden, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Almost all of us who are currently active modelers of the steam era formed our preferences about the railroads and regions we model decades ago, when the RRs we model actually existed and we had direct personal experience with them. The market for steam era freight car models consists largely of aging gents who are nostalgic about an increasingly remote past. Almost all of the (relatively few) younger guys who enter the hobby for the first time these days are modeling either the current railroad scene or the railroads they remember from their youth in the '80s and '90s.

As for the historical societies, do they play a role in influencing modeling decisions? Sure, they do. One of the main reasons the Pennsy, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, etc. are popular RRs with modelers is that their historical societies are strong and effective and produce first rate publications. The NYC historical society, on the other hand, has been dominated for years and years by a handful of aged elitists whose main objective seems to have preventing anyone else from having access to historical photos and documentation about the NYC. In that environment, prototypically accurate modeling of the NYC is a difficult and frustrating endeavor, as Jeff English and others can tell you from personal experience.

Richard Hendrickson


armprem
 

Richard,I don't think that is necessarily so.When I started in the hobby
most model railroaders were free lancing largely because the choices were
so very limited.Practically everyone had a Varney Dockside or a Mantua
Roundhouse Goat.John Allen influenced most of us.HO Monthly was a very
popular with most articles directed to free lancing.Few of us had much more
than a 4'X8' layout which also limited the size of the locomotives we were
likely to purchase.Like most modelers of that era the availability of a
greater variety of locomotives and rolling stock as well as acquiring more
room for larger layouts.The emergence of clubs like the RPI group had a
major influence on many model rails.
----- A major factor, not to be overlooked was the availability of a
plethora of reasonably priced models that made prototype modeling more
appealing and achievable.It was then when modelers tried to capture in
miniature what they had experienced at an earlier stage of their life.Armand
Premo Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops


On Sep 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?
Elden, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Almost all of us who
are currently active modelers of the steam era formed our preferences
about the railroads and regions we model decades ago, when the RRs we
model actually existed and we had direct personal experience with them.
The market for steam era freight car models consists largely of aging
gents who are nostalgic about an increasingly remote past. Almost all
of the (relatively few) younger guys who enter the hobby for the first
time these days are modeling either the current railroad scene or the
railroads they remember from their youth in the '80s and '90s.

As for the historical societies, do they play a role in influencing
modeling decisions? Sure, they do. One of the main reasons the
Pennsy, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, etc. are popular RRs with modelers
is that their historical societies are strong and effective and produce
first rate publications. The NYC historical society, on the other
hand, has been dominated for years and years by a handful of aged
elitists whose main objective seems to have preventing anyone else from
having access to historical photos and documentation about the NYC. In
that environment, prototypically accurate modeling of the NYC is a
difficult and frustrating endeavor, as Jeff English and others can tell
you from personal experience.

Richard Hendrickson





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bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>
 

Group Members,

This whole discussion including manufacturers has been intriquing. My
personality is one that puts the locus of control on me, not just the
bad manufacturers. I, like many, have suffered because no one bothers
to get it "right". I choose to believe I am responsible for this and
am trying to do something about it. I can sit back and complain or
try to pry the imformation from others who have done the research or
do the research myself. Doing it myself is good, but is only worth a
flip if I publish it somehow and share it with others. Many of you
are doing this through this list and I say thanks. If you are not
sharing what you find with everyone in a free and caring way, you are
hurting us all and preventing the preservation of our heritage. Find
a publishing outlet and write up what you have discovered. If you
don't it all dies in the next few years. Again those thanks to those
you share their knowledge freely.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
John Huey wrote:
"Seriously, I probably have too many Eastern cars like, NYC and
Pennsy,