Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?


Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

I'm working on a presentation for Naperville on Central of Georgia
steel boxcars. In 1937 the CG started to accumulate a sizable fleet of
50' door and a half 10' IH boxcars. They have the 4-5 ends and Murphy
square panel roofs that were on so many 1937 AAR 40s. Was there an AAR
spec for a 50' version? Was there an AAR spec for a 40' double door
car?

I also have hit a dead end on why the passion for door and a half 40s
and 50s like the Central had. It's a combination of 4' and 6'
Younsgstown - Camel doors. I know N&W had a fleet of the combo 40s and
the SAL had a fleet of 50s with double 6' doors and plate ends, all
10' IH.

Can anyone cast any light on the why and wherefores of these cars? Was
it a customer requirement or just eveloution? Any help will be
appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax


Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Bill;
I believe door and a half cars on the PRR (X28) were introduced to
accommodate auto loading, but were made obsolete by the introduction of
the larger volume, and wider door opening provided by the double-door
X31, which also provided more interior height for those loaders and
bigger vehicles. The X28 were then converted to X28A by elimination of
the auxiliary door, and put back in general service.

Didn't the N&W have a similar experience with the BPa (am I getting that
one right?), but just elect to seal the door?

I don't know off hand how many of the later X37 classes and other
classes were originally provided as double door cars, but they had some
percentage converted back to single door by fixing the auxiliary door in
place, presumably as the need for the wider opening was no longer
needed. In fact, the history of the fleet is replete with examples of
them adding or subtracting doors. Some portion of the end door cars
like the X41A were also sealed at the end, for conversion to another
configuration. As late as the early 60's, they were adding a second
door to cars not originally equipped as such, like the X41E conversions.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bill McCoy
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?

I'm working on a presentation for Naperville on Central of Georgia
steel boxcars. In 1937 the CG started to accumulate a sizable fleet of
50' door and a half 10' IH boxcars. They have the 4-5 ends and Murphy
square panel roofs that were on so many 1937 AAR 40s. Was there an AAR
spec for a 50' version? Was there an AAR spec for a 40' double door
car?

I also have hit a dead end on why the passion for door and a half 40s
and 50s like the Central had. It's a combination of 4' and 6'
Younsgstown - Camel doors. I know N&W had a fleet of the combo 40s and
the SAL had a fleet of 50s with double 6' doors and plate ends, all
10' IH.

Can anyone cast any light on the why and wherefores of these cars? Was
it a customer requirement or just eveloution? Any help will be
appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax






Yahoo! Groups Links


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Bill,

I haven't researched the geneology of these specific cars but they are 50', have double-
doors, and an inside height of 10'-0":

SOO 175000-175498

SOU 40000-40199

MEC 9000-9049

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill McCoy" <bugsy451@c...> wrote:
I'm working on a presentation for Naperville on Central of Georgia
steel boxcars. In 1937 the CG started to accumulate a sizable fleet of
50' door and a half 10' IH boxcars. They have the 4-5 ends and Murphy
square panel roofs that were on so many 1937 AAR 40s. Was there an AAR
spec for a 50' version? Was there an AAR spec for a 40' double door
car?

I also have hit a dead end on why the passion for door and a half 40s
and 50s like the Central had. It's a combination of 4' and 6'
Younsgstown - Camel doors. I know N&W had a fleet of the combo 40s and
the SAL had a fleet of 50s with double 6' doors and plate ends, all
10' IH.

Can anyone cast any light on the why and wherefores of these cars? Was
it a customer requirement or just eveloution? Any help will be
appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 6, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Patrick Wider wrote:

I haven't researched the geneology of these specific cars but they are 50', have double-
doors, and an inside height of 10'-0":

SOO 175000-175498

SOU 40000-40199

MEC 9000-9049
Add:

SAL 10000-10199 with double doors and X29 style riveted ends and roof (like the SAL B-6 class box cars)

KCS 25000-25049 with 6' Pullman single doors

Pere Marquette 71000-71249 and 72125-72199 double door cars with end doors

Pere Marquette 71250-71349, 72050-72099, and 72100-72124 double door cars, no end doors

Pere Marquette 72000-72049, 7' single doors

Richard Hendrickson


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Pere Marquette 71000-71249 and 72125-72199 double door cars with end
doors

Pere Marquette 71250-71349, 72050-72099, and 72100-72124 double door
cars, no end doors

Pere Marquette 72000-72049, 7' single doors
Subtract these. They trace their lineage back to the old 1920s ARA design, as do their C&O, Erie, and NKP counterparts. PM 72000-72049 did have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular double-door cars.

David Thompson


Scott Pitzer
 

"PM 72000-72049 did
have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular
double-door cars."

I don't follow this part... an extra door to allow for just one additional foot of width?
Scott Pitzer
---------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
Sent: Oct 6, 2005 4:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?


Pere Marquette 71000-71249 and 72125-72199 double door cars with end
doors

Pere Marquette 71250-71349, 72050-72099, and 72100-72124 double door
cars, no end doors

Pere Marquette 72000-72049, 7' single doors
Subtract these. They trace their lineage back to the old 1920s ARA
design, as do their C&O, Erie, and NKP counterparts. PM 72000-72049 did
have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular
double-door cars.

David Thompson





Yahoo! Groups Links


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

"PM 72000-72049 did
have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular
double-door cars."

I don't follow this part... an extra door to allow for just one additional foot
of width?
They were built as regular double-door cars with a 14-foot opening (two 7-foot doors) but the auxiliary door on the left was blocked off by the special interior lining.

David Thompson


Scott Pitzer
 

Now I get it... it seems ORERs usually show only the usable door opening, and give you no idea there's an extra door.
Scott Pitzer
------------

-----Original Message-----
From: James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
Sent: Oct 6, 2005 4:37 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?


"PM 72000-72049 did
have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular
double-door cars."

I don't follow this part... an extra door to allow for just one additional
foot
of width?
They were built as regular double-door cars with a 14-foot opening (two
7-foot doors) but the auxiliary door on the left was blocked off by the
special interior lining.

David Thompson





Yahoo! Groups Links


Tim O'Connor
 

Pere Marquette 72000-72049, 7' single doors
Subtract these. They trace their lineage back to the old 1920s ARA
design, as do their C&O, Erie, and NKP counterparts. PM 72000-72049 did
have 7-foot openings, but from the outside they looked like regular
double-door cars.
David Thompson

David,

Kevin Lafferty posted roster info some time ago that PM 72000-72099
were built in 1940 with W-corner 5/5 ends and Viking roofs. Was that
not correct?

Tim O.


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Kevin Lafferty posted roster info some time ago that PM 72000-72099
were built in 1940 with W-corner 5/5 ends and Viking roofs. Was that
not correct?
Close. Viking roofs, 5/4 ends with rounded corners.

David Thompson


baltimoreterminal <ktravers@...>
 

Bill and Pat:

I show the SAL DD box classes AF-1 and AF-2 as 40' round roof (ala
PRR) and AF-3 (10'-1") 22200- series as 40' cars. Maybe my notes
are in error.

I also show the SOO 175000 series as 10'-1" IH, per msg 24646 on
this list.

N&W had a lot of home made equipment, inlcuding B-3 52000-52999 blt
1936-39. Info per MainLine Modeler 10/90, p14.

The MEC 9000 cars were blt in 1949, late for a 10'-0" car.

Pere Marquette had 10'-0" 72150-72199 blt 1942 10'-0" per RailModel
Journal 9/96 p. 52.

Info on the CG cars might be found in a Prototype Modeler article of
9/86, p. 9.

Hope this helps. Looking for any corrections to my notes.

Travers, BaltimoreTerminal, 10-7-05





--- In STMFC@..., "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:

Bill,

I haven't researched the geneology of these specific cars but they
are 50', have double-doors, and an inside height of 10'-0":

SOO 175000-175498

SOU 40000-40199

MEC 9000-9049

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "Bill McCoy" <bugsy451@c...> wrote:
I'm working on a presentation for Naperville on Central of
Georgia steel boxcars. In 1937 the CG started to accumulate a
sizable fleet of 50' door and a half 10' IH boxcars. They have the 4-
5 ends and Murphy square panel roofs that were on so many 1937 AAR
40s. Was there an AAR spec for a 50' version? Was there an AAR spec
for a 40' double door car?

I also have hit a dead end on why the passion for door and a
half 40s and 50s like the Central had. It's a combination of 4' and
6' Younsgstown - Camel doors. I know N&W had a fleet of the combo
40s and the SAL had a fleet of 50s with double 6' doors and plate
ends, all 10' IH.

Can anyone cast any light on the why and wherefores of these
cars? Was it a customer requirement or just eveloution? Any help
will be appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

I show the SAL DD box classes AF-1 and AF-2 as 40' round roof (ala
PRR) and AF-3 (10'-1") 22200- series as 40' cars. Maybe my notes
are in error.
The SAL cars in question were class AF, with no numeric suffix.

I also show the SOO 175000 series as 10'-1" IH, per msg 24646 on
this list.
That's due to a variation in floor thickness.

N&W had a lot of home made equipment, inlcuding B-3 52000-52999 blt
1936-39. Info per MainLine Modeler 10/90, p14.
Clones of the round-roof PRR X32, and scion to the homemade class B-4.

The MEC 9000 cars were blt in 1949, late for a 10'-0" car.
They were built by Magor in 1939.

Pere Marquette had 10'-0" 72150-72199 blt 1942 10'-0" per RailModel
Journal 9/96 p. 52.
Still ARA derivatives.

David Thompson


baltimoreterminal <ktravers@...>
 

David:

Thanks for the corrections. My notes are modified!

Travers, BaltimoreTerminal, 10-7-05



--- In STMFC@..., James D Thompson <jaydeet@i...> wrote:


I show the SAL DD box classes AF-1 and AF-2 as 40' round roof (ala
PRR) and AF-3 (10'-1") 22200- series as 40' cars. Maybe my notes
are in error.
The SAL cars in question were class AF, with no numeric suffix.

I also show the SOO 175000 series as 10'-1" IH, per msg 24646 on
this list.
That's due to a variation in floor thickness.

N&W had a lot of home made equipment, inlcuding B-3 52000-52999
blt 1936-39. Info per MainLine Modeler 10/90, p14.

Clones of the round-roof PRR X32, and scion to the homemade
class B-4.

The MEC 9000 cars were blt in 1949, late for a 10'-0" car.
They were built by Magor in 1939.

Pere Marquette had 10'-0" 72150-72199 blt 1942 per RailModel
Journal 9/96 p. 52.

Still ARA derivatives.

David Thompson


Tim O'Connor
 

Kevin Lafferty posted roster info some time ago that PM 72000-72099
were built in 1940 with W-corner 5/5 ends and Viking roofs. Was that
not correct?
Close. Viking roofs, 5/4 ends with rounded corners.
David Thompson

Thanks David. Of these cars, did any have roofs other than Viking?

PM series 71000-71249 blt ? ?
PM series 71250-71349 blt 1936 S-corner
PM series 72000-72099 blt 1940 W-corner Duryea 4/5 ends
PM series 72100-72199 blt 1941-1942 W-corner Duryea 5/5 ends

There is a pretty good 1957 color photo of PM #72134 with end
doors in the "Dan Smith" duplicate slide collection. I have a
scan if you're interested. It shows the 1932 ship lap panels
pretty well.

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

I show the SAL DD box classes AF-1 and AF-2 as 40' round roof (ala
PRR) and AF-3 (10'-1") 22200- series as 40' cars. Maybe my notes
are in error.
The SAL cars in question were class AF, with no numeric suffix.

David,

If the 22200 series was AF, does that mean 9100-9149 were AF-3 ?
I believe the source of the AF-3 identification was Hendrickson's
RMJ 1/1998 article.

Tim O.


Tim O'Connor
 

David Thompson wrote

[ >>> The MEC 9000 cars were blt in 1949, late for a 10'-0" car. ]

They were built by Magor in 1939.

Magor was still running the MEC cars in ads in Railway Age in 1947;
perhaps this is why people are confused about the build dates! :-)

Tim O.


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Not the people with 1940 Car Cyc's!! (see page 143).

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

Magor was still running the MEC cars in ads in Railway Age in 1947;
perhaps this is why people are confused about the build dates! :-)

Tim O.


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

22200-22449 were AF-3's. 9100-9149 were A-2's. 10000-10199 were AF's.

Pat Wider

David,

If the 22200 series was AF, does that mean 9100-9149 were AF-3 ?
I believe the source of the AF-3 identification was Hendrickson's
RMJ 1/1998 article.

Tim O.


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

PM series 71000-71249 blt ? ?
PSC 10-30, Climax roof

PM series 71250-71349 blt 1936 S-corner
Ralston, inverse 4-3 Dreadnaught ends, Viking roof

PM series 72000-72099 blt 1940 W-corner Duryea 4/5 ends
Greenville, 5-4 Dreadnaught ends, Viking roof

PM series 72100-72199 blt 1941-1942 W-corner Duryea 5/5 ends
Greenville, 5-4 Dreadnaught ends, Viking roof. 72100-72124 didn't have end doors.

David Thompson, this is all in the PM freight car book...


Tim O'Connor
 

22200-22449 were AF-3's. 9100-9149 were A-2's. 10000-10199 were AF's.
Pat Wider

I show 10000-10999 being AF-2's. So you're saying 10000-10199 were not
the same as 10200-10999? I know the latter are AF-2's from photos.

Did you mean to write A-2 (instead of AF-2)? Was there an A-1 class ?

Are you saying chronological order is AF AF-1 AF-2 AF-3 A-2 AF-4 AF-5 ?