Sergent Couplers


Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent Couplers (#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling Wand. The price for the two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five assembled Type "E" couplers. They work very well and are smaller in size than the Kadee #58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity to mount them in a piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they work. These couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown in color which at a distance make the coupler look as if it were covered with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype. They have a spring located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like the MKD-4 Kadee to absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After uncoupling, they, like the prototype do not return to center as the Kadee and other HO couplers available do. They do not mate with other knuckle couplers due to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler and the present couplers available with the exception of the cast dummy couplers. The manufacturer advises that with a little filling on the dummy coupler knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like their prototype cousins require the services of a brakeman to align the coupler and if necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are closed. They will couple if only one is open and both are properly aligned. The present information sheet from Sergent advises that the current offerings are to retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that they may offer draft gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle situation could be a problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump, staging or flat switched yard or any other location where the benchwork edge is more than an arms length or the track centers are close at a distance with rolling stock close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork edge to track situation is going to be the determining factor as to whether anyone will want to use these for operations, or just buy them for display purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able to place the magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise the steel ball out of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler shank. This allows the knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel ball drops back into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The prototype couplers are designed the same way, except there is no steel ball to raise, just the locking block which is actuated by the raising (or lowering, depending on whether they are over or under-slung) of the cutting lever on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding the operation of couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the operation as to how couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to open. Many thanks Larry, for making this clear to many who have not had the on the ground experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on passenger equipment with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor mentioned, the possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a wand designed for this use and also mounted on an extended wand for distances would solve the problems in both the passenger and freight situations. In regard to the comment that the couplers have to be filed down to fit present draft gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the paperwork that accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what Jared Harper's results as he begins to test these couplers in actual service. The big bugaboo will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately get the wand into position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to align couplers with the cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the benchwork end. This will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as you will only have seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go over the hump or to uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows that I know will not use these couplers as they require the operator to get more involved in the actual work of making and breaking up of trains and in switching operations. The magnetic couplers in use today allow us to move along quickly in an operating session, while use of the Sergent couplers will bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in actual railroad switching and in train make-up and break-up operations. Just like the Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot be beat! Hopefully, Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make this superbly scaled coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a tremendous improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them until the Sargent is proved to be good in operation and the problems are solved. Whether they are depends on what others find when they use them. Jared, please keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work? Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a "scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas M. Olsen" <tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype. They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump, staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising (or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung) of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...


David Jobe, Sr.
 

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas M. Olsen"
<tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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---------------------------------


Tim O'Connor
 

http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Details/Couplers/Default.aspx

Pat, from what I understand, the magnet raises the ball and a
pick of some kind moves the knuckle. (Everyone at the club uses
a pick to uncouple Kadees, because the magnets either don't work
or they're not located in the right spot, so I don't see this as much
of a change.)

Once the knuckle is open, it stays open, until another coupler comes
along and closes it, just like the prototype. So except for the diaphragm
issue (which goes away if one only uses Sergents on FREIGHT cars)
I don't see much practical difference compared to Kadees. (And most
layouts don't have hump yards either.)

Sergents are probably what I'll put in the front coupler position of my
brass steam engines, which have no provision for Kadees or any other
working front coupler.

Tim O.

If I understand you correctly, after application of the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work? Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a "scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!! Pat Wider


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Tangerine Flyer <tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas M. Olsen"
<tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





SPONSORED LINKS

Worldwide travel insurance
Travel trailer insurance
International travel insurance

Travel insurance usa
Travel medical insurance
Csa travel insurance


---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

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Terms of Service.


---------------------------------


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Tim,

Sergents sure look good. If I were in O-scale the problem would be solved. They have
couplers that have operating lift bars. And the cars may actually compress the truck
springs while still allowing them to equalize. The cars can even rock back and forth just
like the real thing. HO-scale - My God, what have I done????

(At least I'm not in N-scale where a nat can derail a scale 200-ton locomotive). (-:}

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Details/Couplers/Default.aspx

Pat, from what I understand, the magnet raises the ball and a
pick of some kind moves the knuckle. (Everyone at the club uses
a pick to uncouple Kadees, because the magnets either don't work
or they're not located in the right spot, so I don't see this as much
of a change.)

Once the knuckle is open, it stays open, until another coupler comes
along and closes it, just like the prototype. So except for the diaphragm
issue (which goes away if one only uses Sergents on FREIGHT cars)
I don't see much practical difference compared to Kadees. (And most
layouts don't have hump yards either.)

Sergents are probably what I'll put in the front coupler position of my
brass steam engines, which have no provision for Kadees or any other
working front coupler.

Tim O.


Tim O'Connor
 

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.

Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.


Andrew Baird
 

Good day!

I use the sergent couplers in S Scale and with the small wand, when you hold it over the coupler, it opens automatically, so you don't have to use the pic.
As for using them with the passenger cars, how often does the passenger train on the layout get switched out?

I also have no problems with the sgt and kd #5s coupling up and running together.

Building another layout and everything will be within reach. For me having less space, modeling Sn42 (CN Newfoundland Canada) these couplers actually slow things down. Instead of racing back and forth coupling and coupling, now you may have to stop short and open a knuckle. This is try in real life as well as I am a CPR Conductor, and 7 out of 10 times the knuckles are closed. I can't count how many times also in a day the knuckles get boxed, then you have to stretch your train, open the knuckle and back onto your train, hosebags, air etc. It all takes time. So for myself, I don't mind the bit of work it takes sometimes to make joints in the yards etc.

Andrew


David Jobe, Sr.
 

Hi Pat,

That's certainly a valid concern and makes more sense.
It's still a bit easier as the wand and pick are one
unit. A small stiff wire is fastened to the magnetic
end so the magnet would be above the coupler and the
wire could extend down into the coupler. Then you
need only twist it to open the knuckle making it a one
hand operation. As for avoiding the long reach and
snagging the wires on scale telephone poles that may
mean planning ahead for a particular move to remote
locations. It's certainly a problem I can appreciate
as I will have to avoid live overhead! But, at least
"we don't need no stinkin' diaphragms"...

David Jobe
Illinois Traction System

--- Patrick Wider <pwider@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some
distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to
allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one
hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while
not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Tangerine Flyer
<tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider
magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they
work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas M. Olsen"
<tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled
Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how
they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark
reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were
covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole
like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made.
After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with
other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to
align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay
Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork
edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a
distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be
able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to
raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the
steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no
steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion
regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them
to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and
accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars,
as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they
go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most
fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of
trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is
a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use
them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems
are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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---------------------------------


Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Tim and list,

On the prototype, the knuckle will tend to close if the car is moved. The force of gravity pulls on the pin and the vibration of movement will cause it to drop, closing the knuckle. The conductor or trainman then has to pull the cut lever and yank the knuckle open.

Since I model in N scale and use Micro-Trains and Accumate couplers, I don't know if this would happen to the Sergent coupler or not. ;<D

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sergent Couplers


But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.


Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.



Yahoo! Groups Links









Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Hi Dave,

Watch that overhead! It's high voltage isn't it?

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Tangerine Flyer <tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

That's certainly a valid concern and makes more sense.
It's still a bit easier as the wand and pick are one
unit. A small stiff wire is fastened to the magnetic
end so the magnet would be above the coupler and the
wire could extend down into the coupler. Then you
need only twist it to open the knuckle making it a one
hand operation. As for avoiding the long reach and
snagging the wires on scale telephone poles that may
mean planning ahead for a particular move to remote
locations. It's certainly a problem I can appreciate
as I will have to avoid live overhead! But, at least
"we don't need no stinkin' diaphragms"...

David Jobe
Illinois Traction System

--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some
distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to
allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one
hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while
not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Tangerine Flyer
<tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider
magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they
work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas M. Olsen"
<tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled
Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how
they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark
reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were
covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole
like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made.
After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with
other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to
align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay
Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork
edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a
distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be
able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to
raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the
steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no
steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion
regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them
to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and
accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars,
as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they
go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most
fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of
trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is
a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use
them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems
are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





SPONSORED LINKS

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Travel trailer insurance
International travel insurance

Travel insurance usa
Travel medical insurance
Csa travel insurance


---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
Terms of Service.


---------------------------------





SPONSORED LINKS

Worldwide travel insurance
Travel trailer insurance
International travel insurance

Travel insurance usa
Travel medical insurance
Csa travel insurance


---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.


---------------------------------


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Tim,

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be open 100% of
the time? Maybe not.

I have a car in a siding - it just happens to have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call
it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves, who knows? I built it that way (so it's an egg). I approach
it with a switcher. The switcher's facing coupler is also closed. Call it bad luck. Someone
accidentally pushed it closed. Sh-t happens. How often? Maybe not very. Who knows? It's
still a valid question.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.


Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.


ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Tangerine Flyer wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
Never!!! You reach across and lift the one on the other drawbar. Then when that car is gone you stop and reach in side the one that would not open and lift the lock block with your fingers and pull the knuckle open. Then you keep on switching. Let someone down the line worry about getting it fixed.
Never in all my time on the RRs have I ever seen a knuckle that would not open if you could get the lock block up.

break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.


ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:42 PM, timboconnor@... wrote:

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.
Maybe the one down in the track was not the one that was opened when the other car was cut off. So it remained closed. Maybe the same case for the car you now want to couple to it. We had a lot of "Bull Heads" on the prototype RRs. Also maybe the car down in the track was kicked to fast into the track. When it hit the knuckle closed from the force for the hit. There is a lot of reasons for a "Bull Head".
When We switched the E/B and W/B leads in Emporia Ks the car that rolled away from us always had it's knuckle closed. We always pilled the pin on the car we were hanging onto. Except when that pin would not pull and we reached over and pulled the other one.
So on your prototype model RR you must choose. Prototype looks and operation or Kadee drawbars.
BTW on the RRs I worked on there were no couplers. They were drawbars.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


Tim O'Connor
 

Pat, in that circumstance, you wave your magic wand and open
each knuckle with that same device (which doubles as a pick), as
I said before. Is this practical? Only if the layout is designed so
that the location is accessible. I could ask a similar question about
coupling Kadees on a curve. (If you do switching inside tunnels,
I admit Kadees will usually work better in that case.)

Remember the car was spotted at the siding. When it was spotted
it had to be uncoupled. The uncoupling process opened the knuckle.
It stays open 99% of the time (on our layouts gravity is unable to
close the knuckle.) The other times you wave the wand. This doesn't
seem complicated to me. What am I missing?

I think the only functional difference between the Sergent and the
Reboxx coupler will be that the Reboxx will have a sprung knuckle
with an optional locking pin. I think the intent was to have the best
of both worlds. But since the Reboxx isn't available I'm guessing it
was harder to accomplish technically than was thought.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not converting to Sergents. But it's simply a
compatibility question. The Reboxx is intended to be compatible with
Kadee, but then I question whether it will be as prototypical looking
as the Sergent. If Sergents came in scale draft gear, I might actually
be inclined to convert.

Tim O'Connor

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be
open 100% of the time? Maybe not. I have a car in a siding - it just happens to
have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves,
who knows?


ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Tim and list,

On the prototype, the knuckle will tend to close if the car is moved. The
force of gravity pulls on the pin and the vibration of movement will cause
it to drop, closing the knuckle. The conductor or trainman then has to pull
the cut lever and yank the knuckle open.

Since I model in N scale and use Micro-Trains and Accumate couplers, I don't
know if this would happen to the Sergent coupler or not. ;<D

Gregg Mahlkov
I have NEVER seen one close this way in all my time on the RRs. The lock block is not heavy enough to pull a knuckle closed. The force of gravity can not pull the lock down until the knuckle is fully closed. There is a tail on the knuckle that holds the block up and prevents it falling.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?


ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Patrick Wider wrote:

Tim,

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be open 100% of
the time? Maybe not.

I have a car in a siding - it just happens to have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call
it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves, who knows? I built it that way (so it's an egg). I approach
it with a switcher. The switcher's facing coupler is also closed. Call it bad luck. Someone
accidentally pushed it closed. Sh-t happens. How often? Maybe not very. Who knows?

It's
still a valid question.
Not really

Pat Wider

One more thing: I have never known a switchman/brakeman to walk by a closed knuckle and not open. On the prototype the knuckle on the engine will ALWAYS be OPEN when there is a crew member on the foot board. (woops no foot boards to day) but this list is before 1960. Big grin
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.


Tim O'Connor
 

Larry, I appreciate that prototype couplers do close from
jostling and vibration etc. But gravity acts on the mass of
the coupler and the friction of scale model knuckle scales
as the inverse square of the size -- in other words the
scale friction is 87 times more effective than it is on the
prototype. This means you have to hit the car pretty darn
hard to jostle the knuckle closed on the other end. The
Sergent knuckles will no doubt sometimes close but I
think "Bull Heads" will be less common in HO scale. And
the frequency may even be equal to the number of times
we now have to deal with missing Kadee springs or
failed McHenry's or Accumates stuck open.

Tim O.


itc_725 <emfour@...>
 

Yeah, David , uncoupling around that live 600 volt overhead can get
rather pesky at times....

Mike Fortney
Illinois Terminal circa 1953

--- In STMFC@..., Tangerine Flyer <tangerine_flyer@s...>
As for avoiding the long reach and

snagging the wires on scale telephone poles that may
mean planning ahead for a particular move to remote
locations. It's certainly a problem I can appreciate
as I will have to avoid live overhead! But, at least
"we don't need no stinkin' diaphragms"...

David Jobe
Illinois Traction System


Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Tim, I still don't know the right answer, especially if Kadee continues to sell #78's one
thimble-full at a time. I know their game - they think that's the quickest and most
profitable way to recoup their tooling costs. They sold 5&10's that way for years until the
competition started to make cheap rip-offs. Then they suddenly made bulk packs
available. Sam, correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand, from a manufacturer's
standpoint, it's much easier to count and dump the things in a bag with little or no
instructions. Anyone want to buy RP CYC's by the 60-book box??? That's the way we get
them. We''ll give you a really special price. Caution, they weight just over 60 pounds.

I'm just trying to learn about all of my current options. You speak of Reboxx like they're
going to be available in my lifetime. I have my doubts. If InterMountain makes them, I'll be
long gone. It's taken them four tries to get an ART steel reefer correct. Ed's about to pull
out his hair and give it up.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

Pat, in that circumstance, you wave your magic wand and open
each knuckle with that same device (which doubles as a pick), as
I said before. Is this practical? Only if the layout is designed so
that the location is accessible. I could ask a similar question about
coupling Kadees on a curve. (If you do switching inside tunnels,
I admit Kadees will usually work better in that case.)

Remember the car was spotted at the siding. When it was spotted
it had to be uncoupled. The uncoupling process opened the knuckle.
It stays open 99% of the time (on our layouts gravity is unable to
close the knuckle.) The other times you wave the wand. This doesn't
seem complicated to me. What am I missing?

I think the only functional difference between the Sergent and the
Reboxx coupler will be that the Reboxx will have a sprung knuckle
with an optional locking pin. I think the intent was to have the best
of both worlds. But since the Reboxx isn't available I'm guessing it
was harder to accomplish technically than was thought.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not converting to Sergents. But it's simply a
compatibility question. The Reboxx is intended to be compatible with
Kadee, but then I question whether it will be as prototypical looking
as the Sergent. If Sergents came in scale draft gear, I might actually
be inclined to convert.

Tim O'Connor




I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be
open 100% of the time? Maybe not. I have a car in a siding - it just happens to
have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves,
who knows?