I answered the question about LV hoppers off list, hoping that
an "expert" would come forward. There were a couple of steam era
freight car articles in "Flags, Diamonds and Statues" (magazine from
the Anthracite Society). Since no one has -

In 1945 LV had 3 types of steel hoppers and 4 types of composite
hoppers-

1. cutdown Lionel/Hobbyline hoppers. see Ben Hom's message for pics.
There is an article describing the rebuilding in "Railway Mechanical
Engineer". A little shorter and higher than USRAs. Drawings for the
original cars appeared in a CBC.
2. Bethlehem fishbelly hoppers offered by Stewart/Ullrich in HO.
Also available in N gauge. There was an article on these cars in
RMC, pics in various CBCs
3. older GLc type 2 bay, 6 rib hoppers similar to Bowser car in HO.
Rich Berg has some good prints of these taken on the LIRR.
4. 4 bay 40 ft. composite hoppers (few photos but 1 is in the Wales
collection); Yungkurth article/drawing in RMC
5. WWII composite emergency hopper (Athearn, P2K in HO)
6. composite version of fish belly; few photos - broadside in 1943
CBC & reprints. Dimensions match the Bethlehem cars.
7. small group of unique 2 bay composite hoppers made in LV shops in
the mid '30s; my recollection is that diagonal metal braces extended
into the open area beneath the slope sheets.

Chuck Yungkurth formerly offered pictures of 1,3 & 7. No longer has
the negatives. George Stillwell's negatives (taken by LVRR) were
ruined in a flood. Keith Retterer offered builders photos of 3 & 4
(maybe 1). I used to have diagrams for these cars but misplaced them
years ago.

LV had a lot of unique steam era equipment.

Ed

On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:12 PM, ed_mines wrote:

5. WWII composite emergency hopper (Athearn, P2K in HO)

These were not the same as the standard Emergency design. These were unique to the LV. The Athearn and P2K kits will not work here except as stand-ins.

While we're on the subject of Emergency hopper designs, the article in the latest MM on N&W hoppers states that the N&W Class H-4 hoppers were "yet another design unique to the N&W." Peter Weiglin - If you're out there, this is not true. The design was an AAR composite Emergency design that was also constructed for the Missouri Pacific Lines (MP 63000-64199; I-GN 65000-65099; Mo-Ill 6200-6249; St.LB&M 65250-65499) and the Midland Valley (9000-9024), all AC&F Lot 2605, built 1943-1944.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Ted Culotta wrote:

While we're on the subject of Emergency hopper designs, the article in
the latest MM on N&W hoppers states that the N&W Class H-4 hoppers were
"yet another design unique to the N&W." Peter Weiglin - If you're out
there, this is not true. The design was an AAR composite Emergency
design that was also constructed for the Missouri Pacific Lines (MP
63000-64199; I-GN 65000-65099; Mo-Ill 6200-6249; St.LB&M 65250-65499)
and the Midland Valley (9000-9024), all AC&F Lot 2605, built 1943-1944.

Quite true, but pointing out errors in MM is probably pointless, as Hundman's long standing practice has been to treat corrections with glacial indifference unless confronted about them, in which case he simply denies that the errors are errors.

Richard Hendrickson

It is correct if you want to be picky. The H-4 used the
N&W-standard close-spaced Z-bar end braces rather than the
lighter, wider-spaced angle section end braces of the standard design.

David Thompson

Picky?!?! THIS crowd?

Naw, tain't so.

SGL

While we're on the subject of Emergency hopper designs, the article in
the latest MM on N&W hoppers states that the N&W Class H-4 hoppers were
"yet another design unique to the N&W." Peter Weiglin - If you're out
there, this is not true.

It is correct if you want to be picky. The H-4 used the N&W-standard close-spaced Z-bar end braces rather than the lighter, wider-spaced angle section end braces of the standard design.

David Thompson

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:12 PM, ed_mines wrote: 5. WWII composite
emergency hopper (Athearn, P2K in HO)These were not the same as the
standard Emergency design. These were unique to the LV. The Athearn
and P2K kits will not work here except as stand-ins.

Ted is probably right. Believe it or not a don't have a decent photo
of these. Part of the reason for my post was the hope that someone
would come forward with one.

The cars do show up in train photos. The Carstens soft cover LIRR book
shows at least one of them.

George Stillwell sent me a photocopy or a ribbed, steel 40 ft. hopper
converted from the 40 ft. composite cars. I believe this conversion
took place after 1947; the 40 ft. composite hoppers were still around
in 1945.

Ed

Ed,

By your description of style #5 cars, do you mean this
series (I stole this from Ed Shaller's web site)?

Hopper, 34'-1" composite (steel after 1951), 55 ton (HM)
15001-15250 Built by LVRR from Bethlehem underframes.
Survivors rebuilt as all steel in 1951.

I wouldn't call it a "decent" picture, due to the half-tone
grain, however there's a shot of LV 15041, still as a composite car
(no date on the photo, however), on page 51 of the book, "Steam
Locomotive Coaling Stations and Diesel Locomotive Fueling
Facilities", by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. The book is published by TLC
Publishing, Inc.
This photo shows a two bay composite car with six diagonals
in a Howe Truss pattern. The diagonal closest to each end extend
below the slope sheet. There is no "offset", as in the Athearn or
P2k composite hoppers.
By the way, since the above has covered the mandatory steam
era freight car requirement, can I add that the book is an excellent
overview of coaling facilities? It does give several section and
detail drawings to answer Mr. Lord's question of how the under-car
receiving hoppers at such a facility were designed.

Regards,
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:12 PM, ed_mines wrote: 5. WWII composite
emergency hopper (Athearn, P2K in HO)These were not the same as

the

standard Emergency design. These were unique to the LV. The

Athearn

and P2K kits will not work here except as stand-ins.

Ted is probably right. Believe it or not a don't have a decent

photo

of these. Part of the reason for my post was the hope that someone
would come forward with one.

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:
I wouldn't call it a "decent" picture, due to the half-tone
grain, however there's a shot of LV 15041, still as a composite car
no date on the photo, however), on page 51 of the book, "Steam
Locomotive Coaling Stations and Diesel Locomotive Fueling
Facilities", by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. The book is published by TLC
Publishing, Inc.
This photo shows a two bay composite car with six diagonals in a Howe
Truss pattern. The diagonal closest to each end extend
below the slope sheet. There is no "offset", as in the Athearn or
P2k composite hoppers.

Phil-
I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the end sheet.

Ed

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:

I wouldn't call it a "decent" picture, due to the half-tone
grain, however there's a shot of LV 15041, still as a composite

car

no date on the photo, however), on page 51 of the book, "Steam
Locomotive Coaling Stations and Diesel Locomotive Fueling
Facilities", by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. The book is published by TLC
Publishing, Inc.
This photo shows a two bay composite car with six diagonals in a

Howe

Truss pattern. The diagonal closest to each end extend
below the slope sheet. There is no "offset", as in the Athearn or
P2k composite hoppers.

Phil-
I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.

Ed

Ed Mines wrote:

I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.

=================================================


How does this one fit for description #7?
http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm

I know it's not a prototype photo, but it's readily available.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.

I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.
=================================================
How does this one fit for description #7?
<http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm>http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm

I know it's not a prototype photo, but it's readily available.

LV did have several batches of channel-side hoppers from SSC and PSC, but those were gone after the early 1930s. The car in question is a conventional 7-rib hopper with wood siding and six Howe-truss diagonal braces. This should not be confused with LV's War Emergency design, which was a 5-rib car with four Pratt-truss diagonal braces (this one shows up in a Bethlehem ad in the 1943 CBC).

David Thompson

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric Hansmann" <ehansmann@a...> wrote:
How does this one fit for description #7?
http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm
If it fits the description the description wasn't very good. The car
shown was probably gone by 1945.
The #7 hoppers (sounds like a take out restaurant) had 6 diagonal
braces on each side including a pair that went over the open areas
beneath the slope sheets.

Ed

Ed and Group,

I've posted a scan in the Files section under LV 15041. In the
book, you can make out the car number. I have to caution that it
could have been "45XXX" instead of "15XXX" (I said it wasn't a GOOD
photo!), however I don't see a 45000 series car which fits this
description in Mr. Shaller's car list.
One interesting thing is that there are additional diagonals on
the extreme end panels.
One note: I find it interesting that the railroads continued to
use diagonals in compression, especially on hopper cars. It's
understandable on box cars since the crossbearers change the way in
which the side panel trusses are loaded. However, on a hopper car,
there is no inturruption in the side panels, so a Pratt truss would
truly put the diagonals in tension. I guess that the argument could
be made that if the diagonals were in tension, then the verticals
would be in compression, so one piece or the other ends up loaded as
a column. On the other hand, the verticals are the shorter of the
two members, and so would have greater buckling strength for the
same cross section.

Hope the photo is of some use!
Phil Buchwald