A search did not find any information on this sight about freight
car wheels, so I will ask a question.
Looking through some old Railroad magazines There is a story
in March 1969 that all the Cast Iron wheels are now gone from
interchange service.
These wheels have ribs on the back, did the cast steel wheels
also have ribs on the back or were they smooth?
My guess is in the 50's most of the wheels had ribs on the back,
and smooth back freight car wheels were rare.
Ron Christensen

The ribs were on cast iron wheels to disapate heat and were not needed with the newer steel wheels as much. Some of the first steel wheels "may" have had ribs but, not to my knowledge.
Don Worthy
Ivey, Ga.

rxensen <rxensen@...> wrote:
A search did not find any information on this sight about freight
car wheels, so I will ask a question.
Looking through some old Railroad magazines There is a story
in March 1969 that all the Cast Iron wheels are now gone from
interchange service.
These wheels have ribs on the back, did the cast steel wheels
also have ribs on the back or were they smooth?
My guess is in the 50's most of the wheels had ribs on the back,
and smooth back freight car wheels were rare.
Ron Christensen





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--- In STMFC@..., Don Worthy <don_worthy@y...> wrote:

The ribs were on cast iron wheels to disapate heat and were not needed with the newer

steel wheels as much. Some of the first steel wheels "may" have had ribs but, not to my
knowledge.

Don Worthy
Ivey, Ga.

Don - What evidence do you have for this statement? The sources I've seen make it clear
that the so-called "ribs" were intended to strengthen chilled-iron wheels, especially in the
area of the flange. My research has never indicated that they were intended to dissipate
heat. BTW: the correct term for these "ribs" is: brackets, much like the correct term for
"roof walks" is: running boards. I've yet to see a wrought steel wheel pattern with brackets.

Pat Wider

Well Patrick, I haven't dug into my paperwork but, I've had family that was the head of Vulcan Industries in Birmingham, Ala. for 30years, which was one of the biggest steel mills in Ala.. My brother worked for the Macon, Mine and Milling (which did jobs (wheel work was one of them) for the Central of Georgia and Southern Railway for many years). Metalurgy is a common subject in our family. I have been a welder/mechanic and since 1988, an electrician. I was always told the "Ribs" were more for the heat of the iron wheel due to iron will hold heat longer than steel.
Now that you question this....I'll now spend time to look up some facts concerning this.
Don Worthy
Ivey

Patrick Wider <pwider@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., Don Worthy <don_worthy@y...> wrote:

The ribs were on cast iron wheels to disapate heat and were not needed with the newer

steel wheels as much. Some of the first steel wheels "may" have had ribs but, not to my
knowledge.

Don Worthy
Ivey, Ga.

Don - What evidence do you have for this statement? The sources I've seen make it clear
that the so-called "ribs" were intended to strengthen chilled-iron wheels, especially in the
area of the flange. My research has never indicated that they were intended to dissipate
heat. BTW: the correct term for these "ribs" is: brackets, much like the correct term for
"roof walks" is: running boards. I've yet to see a wrought steel wheel pattern with brackets.

Pat Wider





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--- In STMFC@..., Don Worthy <don_worthy@y...> wrote:

Well Patrick, I haven't dug into my paperwork but, I've had family that was the head of

Vulcan Industries in Birmingham, Ala. for 30years, which was one of the biggest steel mills
in Ala.. My brother worked for the Macon, Mine and Milling (which did jobs (wheel work
was one of them) for the Central of Georgia and Southern Railway for many years).
Metalurgy is a common subject in our family. I have been a welder/mechanic and since
1988, an electrician. I was always told the "Ribs" were more for the heat of the iron wheel
due to iron will hold heat longer than steel.

Now that you question this....I'll now spend time to look up some facts concerning this.
Don Worthy
Ivey

Don,

From an ICC report dated December 23, 1918:

"Wheels are subjected to side blows on their flanges. The flange wear of wheels and rails
testify to this action. In the design of chilled iron wheels great strength of section is
provided against side blows. The double plate at the hub, together with the brackets, of
which there are 14, reenforcing the strength of the single plate, are the means provided to
meet these requirements".

Pat Wider

Again, yes they do add to the strength but, if that were the only thing they did, the wheel could have been made solid and not ribed. Sorry, that much iron still needed to vent off heat from breaking and so on. Sounds like an add from one of the wheel companes
Don Worthy

Patrick Wider <pwider@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., Don Worthy <don_worthy@y...> wrote:

Well Patrick, I haven't dug into my paperwork but, I've had family that was the head of

Vulcan Industries in Birmingham, Ala. for 30years, which was one of the biggest steel mills
in Ala.. My brother worked for the Macon, Mine and Milling (which did jobs (wheel work
was one of them) for the Central of Georgia and Southern Railway for many years).
Metalurgy is a common subject in our family. I have been a welder/mechanic and since
1988, an electrician. I was always told the "Ribs" were more for the heat of the iron wheel
due to iron will hold heat longer than steel.

Now that you question this....I'll now spend time to look up some facts concerning this.
Don Worthy
Ivey

Don,

From an ICC report dated December 23, 1918:

"Wheels are subjected to side blows on their flanges. The flange wear of wheels and rails
testify to this action. In the design of chilled iron wheels great strength of section is
provided against side blows. The double plate at the hub, together with the brackets, of
which there are 14, reenforcing the strength of the single plate, are the means provided to
meet these requirements".

Pat Wider





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--- In STMFC@..., Don Worthy <don_worthy@y...> wrote:

Again, yes they do add to the strength but, if that were the only thing they did, the

wheel could have been made solid and not ribed. Sorry, that much iron still needed to vent
off heat from breaking and so on. Sounds like an add from one of the wheel companes

Don Worthy

It's not an ad. As I said, it's from an I.C.C. report. See:

http://members.aol.com/airlineyard/nyctolwestnycaccidents.html

I know of two other completely different (non ad) sources that say the same thing. I
assume you meant to say braking. Just increasing the cross section with additional iron
would have made the wheel heavier, possibly exceeding the maximum allowable wheel
weight (for the 1917-1920 A.R.A. Drawings) of 750 lb. for a freight car having a maximum
gross weight of 169,000 lb. or 850 lb. for a car having a maximum gross weight of
210,000 lb. As I'm sure you know, keeping the unsprung weight as low as possible is a
desirable characteristic for freight and passenger car trucks.

Still awaiting your evidence for the "cooling function" of chilled iron wheel brackets.

Patrick Wider

To add to this confused discussion, not all cast iron or "chilled
wheel" designs even had brackets. According to the 1959 G-II AAR
Wheel and Axle Manual I have here, double plate cast iron wheels
were already outlawed and,

"Cast iron wheels, sometimes called chilled tread wheels, are used
under freight cars. The present design for the 650 lb. cast iron
wheel is the single plate non-bracketed type. The present design
for the 700, 750, and 835 lb. cast iron wheels is a single plate
bracketed type with a cored hub or solid hub..."

All non-bracketed cast iron wheels except the 650 lb. one were also
outlawed by 1959 per Rule 1.35-6.

So, the AAR in 1959, in its publication to railroad wheel shops,
called them "cast iron wheels" and they were manufactured to
Specification "M-403". What we really need perhaps is a "Section G
of the Manual of Standards and Recommended Practices" of that era
which covers the actual manufacture of wheels for railroad use.

Also, for what its worth, under Rule 3B.15, a cracked or broken
bracket was cause for removal of said cast iron wheel wheel from
service.


I also have someplace or other a 1928 wheel and axle manual, though
not here with me. Maybe it will shed some more light on the
brackets thing if I can find it.

Thanks Rick. You are absolutely correct. One example: the Griffin Wheel Company
(Chicago, IL) ad in the 1928 CBC (page 893) shows that their single-plate chilled car
wheels lacked brackets on their inside face. I've seen the claim that the brackets were for
cooling purposes before and have never been able to confirm this. My suspicion is that
this is one of those model railroad old wive's tales that is incorrect and has gained a life of
its own. If it is in fact true, I'd like to see it confirmed by some believable original source.

Pat Wider

Ok...1928 AAR Wheel and Axle Manual,


"SECTION 2
Kind of Wheels

2.Cast iron or, as they are sometimes called, chilled tread wheels are the most generally used because of their wide-spread application under freight cars...The previous standard design of this type of wheel was known as the double-plate design. The present standard, adopted in 1928, is the single-plate design with reinforced flange..."

I think the statement "with reinforced flange" tells the tale here maybe. It is interesting that the brackets were designed to look like a fan though. It probably was a result of the way they wanted to strengthen the flange and where they wanted the stresses to be placed on the plate, but, who really knows. I'd still like to get ahold of a Section G manual to see if it sheds any light on it.




Message: 18
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:52:41 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider" <pwider@...>
Subject: Re: Wheels

Thanks Rick. You are absolutely correct. One example: the Griffin Wheel Company
(Chicago, IL) ad in the 1928 CBC (page 893) shows that their single-plate chilled car
wheels lacked brackets on their inside face. I've seen the claim that the brackets were for
cooling purposes before and have never been able to confirm this. My suspicion is that
this is one of those model railroad old wive's tales that is incorrect and has gained a life of
its own. If it is in fact true, I'd like to see it confirmed by some believable original source.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "OScaleTrains Rick" <oscaletrains@i...> wrote:

... The present standard, adopted in 1928, is the
single-plate design with reinforced flange..."

I think the statement "with reinforced flange" tells the tale here maybe.
It is interesting that the brackets were designed to look like a fan

though.

It probably was a result of the way they wanted to strengthen the flange

and

where they wanted the stresses to be placed on the plate, but, who really
knows. I'd still like to get ahold of a Section G manual to see if it

sheds

any light on it.

Foundry practice has a long history of using swirling pattern or S shaped spokes on cast iron wheels.Quite common on both old time cast brake wheels and old time band saws. From what I've read, it reduced the stresses caused by uneven shrinkage of the rim vs. the spokes; if the rim shank too much the sections between the spokes were under tension and prone to crack. By putting a curve in the spokes, the spokes could bend slightly to lessen this stress. Now, think of the brackets as spokes, as they actually are; thick ribs on a relatively thin plate.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "OScaleTrains Rick" <oscaletrains@i...> wrote:
>
> ... The present standard, adopted in 1928, is the
> single-plate design with reinforced flange..."
>
> I think the statement "with reinforced flange" tells the tale here maybe.
> It is interesting that the brackets were designed to look like a fan
though.
> It probably was a result of the way they wanted to strengthen the flange
and
> where they wanted the stresses to be placed on the plate, but, who really
> knows. I'd still like to get ahold of a Section G manual to see if it
sheds
> any light on it.

Foundry practice has a long history of using swirling pattern or S shaped
spokes on cast iron wheels.Quite common on both old time cast brake wheels
and old time band saws. From what I've read, it reduced the stresses caused
by uneven shrinkage of the rim vs. the spokes; if the rim shank too much
the sections between the spokes were under tension and prone to crack. By
putting a curve in the spokes, the spokes could bend slightly to lessen
this stress. Now, think of the brackets as spokes, as they actually are;
thick ribs on a relatively thin plate.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

Thanks Dennis. In John H. White's book on freight cars, he states the following about
Washburn's cast-iron wheel design: "The curved strengthening ribs on the back also
lessened the effects of contraction cracks." This appears to agree with your statements.

Pat Wider

Thanks Dennis. In John H. White's book on freight cars, he states the following about
Washburn's cast-iron wheel design: "The curved strengthening ribs on the back also
lessened the effects of contraction cracks." This appears to agree with your statements.

According to an extensive study entitled "Railroad Car Wheel Usage in the U.S." published
in the NYCHS Headlight magazine: "Many, but not all cast iron wheels can be identified by
the beautifully spiraling ribs known as "brackets" on their back sides. The brackets added
strength to the wheel's flange and to the plate supporting the rim.........most, but not all
cast iron wheels made after 1920 had brackets. The spiraled brackets are not found on
steel wheels." ".....August 1, 1948, cast iron double-plate (a hollow wheel) wheels were
prohibited in interchange. On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-plate nonbracketed
(without ribs) wheels were prohibited from interchange. As of January 1, 1958, no cast
iron wheels could be applied to new or rebuilt cars. On January 1, 1964, no more new cast
iron wheels were to be applied to existing cars. And, on January 1, 1968, all cast iron
wheels were prohibited in interchange."

Still no mention of the bracket's cooling function - model railroading folklore?????

Pat Wider

Here's a little information I acquired that is neither intended to
support nor refute anything anyone else has had to say on this topic.

A few years back I spent a day at the foundryman's library (exact
title forgotten) in Des Plaines, Illinois researching casting
processes. My interest was in malleable castings but what I have to
say here applies to other types as well.

When molten iron is poured into a mold the iron begins to cool even
as more molten iron is being added. In the case of round things -
hand brake wheels was my interest and this may or may not apply to
wheels - the rim is cooler than the hub throughout the cooling
process. As the metal cools it passes through some temperature
ranges wherein the metal contracts and other temperature ranges
wherein it expands. (I can provide those exact temperature ranges
and the sequence of expansion and contraction if someone really
cares.)

Speaking now only of hand brake wheels and similar items such as
pulleys and flywheels, there are points during the cooling process
where the rim is expanding while the hub and spokes are contracting
and visa versa. Curved parts help accommodate these conflicting
movements through slight deformation rather than cracking.

All this may not have a darn thing to do with freight car wheels
but ...

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso

--- In STMFC@..., "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:

Thanks Dennis. In John H. White's book on freight cars, he states

the following about

Washburn's cast-iron wheel design: "The curved strengthening ribs

on the back also

lessened the effects of contraction cracks." This appears to

agree with your statements.

According to an extensive study entitled "Railroad Car Wheel Usage

in the U.S." published

in the NYCHS Headlight magazine: "Many, but not all cast iron

wheels can be identified by

the beautifully spiraling ribs known as "brackets" on their back

sides. The brackets added

strength to the wheel's flange and to the plate supporting the

rim.........most, but not all

cast iron wheels made after 1920 had brackets. The spiraled

brackets are not found on

steel wheels." ".....August 1, 1948, cast iron double-plate (a

hollow wheel) wheels were

prohibited in interchange. On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-

plate nonbracketed

(without ribs) wheels were prohibited from interchange. As of

January 1, 1958, no cast

iron wheels could be applied to new or rebuilt cars. On January 1,

1964, no more new cast

iron wheels were to be applied to existing cars. And, on January 1,

1968, all cast iron

wheels were prohibited in interchange."

Still no mention of the bracket's cooling function - model

railroading folklore?????

Pat Wider

Edited for spelling...

I think it is pertinent because just as Dennis pointed out, there
are foundry processes that make perfect sense once they are
explained to us non foundry knowledgeable people. At this point in
time, I have to agree with Pat that it seems wholly unlikely that
the brackets on the plates of cast iron wheels supporting the flange
ever had "intentionally" anything to do with "cooling". Whether
they actually did help to "cool" anything in the process of use, is
a whole other argument.

It's obvious that the AAR was weeding out cast iron wheels from the
scene over time. They still "weed out" today, but it's amazing that
cast iron wheels were still in use to some extent into the
1960's...wow.

As we speak, they have started the removal of all 36" CH class
wheels that have "SOUTHERN" cast on the plates. All of those wheels
manufactured in 1995 became unusable earlier this year, and 1980,
1989, and 1993 years will probably become history by the end of this
year.

Rant on...

Railroad wheelsets are a HUGE expense for car owners in the railroad
industry. The Class 1 railroads themselves, as they make the
transition from BEING a real "railroad" into being only slightly
more than "long haul freight movers" of other peoples cars, are in
active search of the "perfect" wheelsets in order to stop wheel and
axle failures now. They want to, and have been for a couple years
now, jacking up the weight capacities of cars, cars that are riding
on wheels and axles that were designed and engineered in the 1940's
that were NEVER designed to support the kinds of weights the
railroads are hauling on them, especially in coal service...thus,
overloading the cars and putting more stress on the components than
they were ever designed to handle. This has lead to increasing
failures of materials and derailments caused by broken wheels and
axles. The funny, and sad, thing about it is, do the railroads think
the answer is to stop overloading the cars components? No, the more
material you can get in each individual car, the more money you can
make hauling it I guess. Do they think the answer is to replace the
1940's designed materials with heavier and better designed
components? Yes, of course, BUT, that costs LOTS and LOTS of money
AND the material is simply not available in quantity anyway, at any
cost, so it will have to happen over time. But, in the meantime, the
answer has become, led by the UP, to institute new rules through the
AAR which greatly tighten up the number and types of small defects
that are allowed in the wheels and axles. Sounds like a great idea,
except, it causes LOTS of wheels and axles to simply become scrap
because they cannot be remanufactured to meet the new criteria, thus
costing the car owners lots of money to replace the material with
new AND costing wheel shops lots of money because they have to spend
much more time and expense working on the material to try to make it
almost "perfect", and scrapping much material in the process, and
they are caught holding the bill for it...of course, since the
railroads have been getting out of the car owning business for some
time now, that hit in cash goes to someone else so they really don't
care. They also don't care that IF the material was used as it was
intended when it was designed in the 1940's, it would last a very
long time in service, but when you greatly increase the stress on it
by carrying more weight, even small defects quickly become
catastrophic failures...and their answer to this...using the ARR
rules, scrap more and more of other peoples material that WOULD be
good if used correctly, but they intend to not use it as it was
designed, so, it must be almost "perfect" for reuse, and if it is
not, it is scrap. And that costs a bunch of money. Who it hurts the
most are car owners like TTX, because their cars are almost never
loaded heavily, but their wheels and axles are still now subject to
the new rules that scrap a lot of material that would otherwise be
perfectly fine under "normal" use.

Add to that the recent UP's going after the model railroading
industry for the supposed copyright thing, and it starts to paint a
whole other picture of some of the railroads we, as modelers, tend
to otherwise "admire".

Frankly, if I had any UP lettered model equipment, I'd sell it or
throw it away at this point in time.

Rant off...



--- In STMFC@..., "bierglaeser" <bierglaeser@y...> wrote:

Here's a little information I acquired that is neither intended to
support nor refute anything anyone else has had to say on this

topic.

A few years back I spent a day at the foundryman's library (exact
title forgotten) in Des Plaines, Illinois researching casting
processes. My interest was in malleable castings but what I have

to

say here applies to other types as well.

When molten iron is poured into a mold the iron begins to cool

even

as more molten iron is being added. In the case of round things -
hand brake wheels was my interest and this may or may not apply to
wheels - the rim is cooler than the hub throughout the cooling
process. As the metal cools it passes through some temperature
ranges wherein the metal contracts and other temperature ranges
wherein it expands. (I can provide those exact temperature ranges
and the sequence of expansion and contraction if someone really
cares.)

Speaking now only of hand brake wheels and similar items such as
pulleys and flywheels, there are points during the cooling process
where the rim is expanding while the hub and spokes are

contracting

and visa versa. Curved parts help accommodate these conflicting
movements through slight deformation rather than cracking.

All this may not have a darn thing to do with freight car wheels
but ...

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso

It's obvious that the AAR was weeding out cast iron wheels from the
scene over time. They still do so today, but it's amazing that cats
iron wheels were still in use to some extent into the 1960's...wow.

The FGE wood reefer that is such a prominent exhibit in the Great Hall of the California State Railroad Museum arrived at the museum c. 1975 in Sacramento from Tacoma Ice & Storage (WA) on the same iron wheels that it had when it was taken out of service many, many years previous. It could not be handled in "interchange", but yet the BN agreed to haul it to Bieber, CA (Inside Gateway) behind the caboose, and the WP simply looked the other way until it arrived in Sacramento. It was further interchanged with both the Central California Traction Company, and the SP (several times) before it went on to permanent exhibition in 1981.

If I understand the rules correctly, does not the rule simply state that a railroad does not have to accept on interchange certain equipment, not that it is absolutely forbidden to do so?

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Denny,

A great deal depends on whether the rule emanated from the AAR Mechanical Division or the FRA. The AAR created rules say do not offer a car for interchange. If you do it can be refused and the AAR might fine the road offering the car. If it's an FRA rule placed in the Interchange Rules, it is absolute, the FRA will fine violators, and it won't be the couple of hundred the AAR levies either. The AAR based rules can be and often are waived in specific circumstances, like the movement of a historic car or locomotive. Most roads will no longer move anything with other than roller bearings though. No cotton waste or lube oil kept around anymore.

Gregg Mahlkov

Pat writes:

<<On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-plate nonbracketed (without ribs)
wheels were prohibited from interchange.>>

This rule prohibited (in interchange) the use of 700 and 750 lb. single
plate, non-bracketed cast iron wheels cast on and after January 1, 1938. Prior to
that date, 600 and 750 lb. single plate, non-backeted, cast iron wheels cast
before January 1, 1938 were prohibited (in interchange) effective January 1,
1950.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada

oscaletrains@... writes:

<< Ok...1928 AAR Wheel and Axle Manual>>

1928 ARA Wheel and Axle Manual

<<I'd still like to get ahold of a Section G manual to see if it sheds any
light on it. >>

An early Section G from the ARA/AAR Manual might have some information though
most of the information within subsequent volumes is little more than that
contained within the Wheel and Axle Manual. The Manual is a loose leaf book of
nearly 1200 pages (depending on era) and most sections were edited down
throughout time.

The most comprehensive information on early wheel specs was published by the
ARA's Wheel and Axle Committee (1928). There are nearly two hundred pages of
information and specifications (within) from which the 1928 Wheel and Axle
Manual was formulated. The Wheel and Axle Manual was modified throughout its
history by use of supplements. It was never completely revamped and published
until the latter part of the 1950s, I believe 1958, by which time cast iron
wheels were nearly a non factor as applied to freight equipment.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada

Pat writes:

<< On January 1, 1952, cast iron single-plate nonbracketed (without ribs)
wheels were prohibited from interchange. >>

The prohibition was extended to January 1, 1953 as of July of 1951. I
haven't had a chance to dig further, but I suspect there may be even further
extensions. Once I tally the entire story I will report back.

This is a classic case of the AAR Interchange Rules having been extended
without subsequent follow up on the author(s)' part.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada