--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:

Tom Houle's article on scratchbuilding a Soo Line "sawtooth" SS boxcar
in O scale was an interesting read on building a prototype currently
unavailable as a kit; however, the car number on the model (SOO
7594230) is almost certainly bogus. What's the real car series for
this prototype?

Ben,

The short answer is 32800 - 41798 and 131000 - 135798, all even numbers only. Almost 7000 cars, built by several different builders over a period of seventeen years. There was also a tall 1 1/2 door automobile version and a 36' long stockcar not included in the above total. It's a hard to get any more specific than that, as Mr. Houle's model seems to be a mix of details from different series.

I did measured drawings from field notes some years ago that have never been published (because I detest inking drawings). These were the basis for my resin kit of twenty years ago, and also the Chooch "Ultra Scale" O scale kit offered just recently. There is presently a gentleman who has offered to redraw my drawings in CAD, which would make it easy to modify them to reflect the different variations, so hopefully they'll finally be published sometime soon.

One problem I have with going to print is I still don't have the basic story behind the origins of the design. Briefly, the "sawtooth" look comes from using a heavy 4" x 6" angle section for a side sill, rather than the more traditional channel section. The legs of the angle faced upward and inward, similar to the angle section side sill of the much later AAR design boxcars, providing a ledge for the floor and a grain tight connection with the side sheathing. Because the side sill was above the plane of the underframe, the crossbearers could extend under it and connect directly to the side posts, making a simple but very solid connection reminiscent of how the floor beams are connected to the lower chord of a bridge truss, transferring the load directly from the floor to the truss. However, since the Soo Line cars were originally designed with massive fish belly centersills, I don't believe that the engineering was that sophisticated; I think the designers were simply looking for a simple floor to side connection.

And that leads me to my question; who was responsible for this design, the Soo Line, or AC&F. The upper body framing traces its lineage directly to the early 36' single sheathed cars developed jointly by the Canadian Pacific and Dominion Car & Foundry in the last years of the first decade of the twentieth century. This design passed directly to the Soo Line with a group of 750 identical copies built by AC&F in 1912. However, while the CPR continued to build the 36' version, the next year the Soo purchased 40' cars with nearly duplicate upper body framing, but this radically different underframe. AC&F was also building cars with similar underframes for several other roads at that time; a car for the Frisco built the same year as the Soo cars is shown in the 1919 Cyc., but only the Soo seemed to like the design enough to continue to use it, ultimately having it built by several different builders. The Soo Line Historical & Technical Society archives unfortunately does not have the Mechanical Dept. correspondence files that might answer this question; apparently, they no longer exist. Has anyone ever found a reference to this car framing in the ACF archives, or in the preserved materials from the other users, SL-SF and MoP?

As to the cars themselves, I divide them into three rough groups, based on design features. The cars built in 1913, 14, and 15, all by AC&F, have 5' wide door openings, extremely deep (31") centersills, and 9" channel crossbearers. The cars built in 1920, 21, and 23 by Haskel & Barker, then Pullman after they absorbed H&B, and AC&F again retained the 5' door, but had shallower centersills of USRA proportions (26" deep) and made use of more pressings in the underframe. The cars built by Pullman in 1926, 27, 29, 30, and by Siems - Stembel Co. in 1929 had arch roofs, 6' door openings, and metal ends. The 1926 built cars had corrugated ends and wood doors; the later cars had Dreadnaught ends and top supported Younsgstown doors with Camel fittings, except the cars built in 1930 had bottom supported doors.

I could elaborate further if anyone wants more info.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

The short answer is 32800 - 41798 and 131000 - 135798, all even numbers
only. Almost 7000 cars, built by several different builders over a period
of seventeen years.

Oops! I forgot to pull out the numbers for the double sheathed truss rod cars built in 1917 by Haslkel & Barker. Soo 36600 - 38198 should not be included in the above group, but it appears that I missed 130000 - 130996 (even), so the total number of cars is still about the same.

Dennis Storzek

The drawing in the RMC plan book and the original Storzak model had
an "outside metal rood" with rectangular ribs.

In builders photos I've noticed that some of the cars of this type
came with another roof. What's the name of this other roof and what
does it look like?

I've also seen a photo of some Swift stock cars with saw tooth side
braces (photo was from Rich Burg). Anyone know anything about these?

Ed

I hope when Sunshine introduces their announced but not released new version
of the saw tooth car they do multiple versions. Since I have the original
Dennis Storzek version (still a great model) I'd like a different one, maybe
the 6 ft door, arch roof car.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim and Lisa Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@v...> wrote:

I hope when Sunshine introduces their announced but not released new version
of the saw tooth car they do multiple versions. Since I have the original
Dennis Storzek version (still a great model) I'd like a different one, maybe
the 6 ft door, arch roof car.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

I didn't know these had been announced. I'm under the impression that these are going to be the mid / late twenties arch roof cars; my old kit modeled the early twenties cars with fish belly center sills. I know that FH is aware that there is one of the 1929 cars at the Illinois Railway Museum, and I provided some detail close-ups of a 1926 car with corrugated ends that is preserved in the Twin Cities area. Hopefully, they'll do both.

Speaking of my old kits, the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society owns the rights to them now, and intends to re-release them, except I've been dying on the job. We've had Grandt Line tool new double rung sill steps for them and the parts are in, now I just need to get my fanny in gear to combine the patterns into a one piece body.


Dennis Storzek

Dennis, the Sunshine sawtooth boxcar got a very brief mention in the faux
newsletter, "The Sun" that was mailed with Naperville registration info.

Great news that the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society will be
re-releasing your kits. I'm looking forward to it.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

Speaking of the Des Plaines Valley kits, Dennis, is there any chance I could
get replacement stirrup steps for the Rutland and Soo cars? I'm afraid those
white metal castings did not survive the last 10 years of use... (The Rutland
car survived a fall onto a concrete floor but a couple stirrups did not make it.)
Are you saying you've made plastic replacements?

Tim O'Connor

Dennis and Jim, it is my understanding that Sunshine (Martin)
is indeed going to do multiple versions of the Soo Line
"Sawtooth" box cars. They will all be the 6 foot door opening
later cars, with the different steel ends and radial roof. I
had given Martin photos of the different versions, and Frank
Hodina has been to the Illinois Railway Museum to see the
existing cars. So there is no conflict with the 5 foot door
version that the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society is
going to re-release.

I have been aware of this project for about 3 years now
and have been trying to feed as much information to Martin as
I can. Talking with Frank and people at Naperville about it
is my understanding that it's going to be a little longer in
the finishing of the patterns, as a kitchen remodeling project
got in the way!

Say Dennis I wonder if you could clear up some misinformation
on the painting of the cars. When did the Soo Line stop
painting the black herald backround on the "Dollar Sign" logo?
I'm thinkin it was in the late 1940's, just before the change
to that awful large "SOO LINE" logo on the steel house cars?
Many ex-Soo Liner's hated the large lettering as I do myself,
but you know we all loved the old "Dollar Sign".

Thank You for Helping,

Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.








--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Jim and Lisa Hayes"

<jimandlisa97225@v...>

wrote:
>
> I hope when Sunshine introduces their announced but not released

new version

> of the saw tooth car they do multiple versions. Since I have the

original

> Dennis Storzek version (still a great model) I'd like a

different one, maybe

> the 6 ft door, arch roof car.
>
> Jim Hayes
> Portland Oregon

I didn't know these had been announced. I'm under the impression

that these

are going to be the mid / late twenties arch roof cars; my old kit

modeled

the early twenties cars with fish belly center sills. I know that

FH is

aware that there is one of the 1929 cars at the Illinois Railway

Museum,

and I provided some detail close-ups of a 1926 car with corrugated

ends

that is preserved in the Twin Cities area. Hopefully, they'll do

both.

Speaking of my old kits, the Soo Line Historical & Technical

Society owns

the rights to them now, and intends to re-release them, except I've

been

dying on the job. We've had Grandt Line tool new double rung sill

steps for

them and the parts are in, now I just need to get my fanny in gear

to

combine the patterns into a one piece body.


Dennis Storzek

--- In STMFC@..., "Jerry" <jrs060@m...> wrote:

Say Dennis I wonder if you could clear up some misinformation
on the painting of the cars. When did the Soo Line stop
painting the black herald backround on the "Dollar Sign" logo?
I'm thinkin it was in the late 1940's, just before the change
to that awful large "SOO LINE" logo on the steel house cars?
Many ex-Soo Liner's hated the large lettering as I do myself,
but you know we all loved the old "Dollar Sign".

Jerry,

It's hard to say with any authority, as the General Mechanical Office
files that would have the information seem to no longer exist, so all
I can cite is photos, and it is sometimes hard to distinguish the
black from the FCR car.

Builder's photos of the cars show black backgrounds, at least through
1926, and I don't see any reason that there'd be a change before the
beginning of the Great Depression. I have a copy of a nice photo of
one of the 1913 built cars with the new data arrangement and a 1933
scale date, and it has a black background, so repaints done during the
period must have also been done this way.

During the late thirties and through WWII, the railroad was in the
throes of an austerity program, as both the Soo Line and leased
subsidiary Wisconsin Central were in bankruptcy. Use of the "$" herald
with an "open" (car color) background on cabooses is well documented,
but harder to do so on freight cars. It may well be that they just
weren't repainting many freight cars. However, builders photos of all
the new steel AAR boxcars that came from Pullman during the late
thirties and early forties definitely show black backgrounds in the
heralds. This may reflect the lack of any incremental cost difference
on new cars, compared to the more closely accounted for costs in
their own shops.

After WWII, when the Soo began assembling their own cars at the WC
shops in North Fond du Lac, the original run of cars built in 1949 had
heralds without any black. This continued with the "sawtooth" cars
rebuilt with new roofs and underframes in 1950, when the Korean
conflict put the crimp on steel supplies for building new cars, and
again when new car construction resumed in 1951. Midway through the
1951 production is when the first "boxcar block" lettering was
introduced; the lettering wandering around the car side a bit until
they settled on the placement they wanted, and this was the effective
end of the use of the "$" herald on new cars, although it re-appeared
with a black background on cabooses about this same time.

Based on this, I'd say that the majority of "sawtooth" cars seen after
WWII would not have black in the heralds; only old cars not repainted
since the early thirties still having black heralds. However, I can't
discount the fact that one of the smaller car shops was still using
black, since it was still in use on cabooses, and certainly enough
steel cars were coming in with black heralds. Photos taken in the
fifties show most wood cars with "open" heralds.

Hope this helps.

Dennis Storzek

Thank you Dennis, your expertise and help on this is greatly
appreciated, as many of us love the old Soo Line. Now if we
only could get someone to do the Dalman two-level Andrews
trucks? All the Soo Line, GN, and SAL modelers would be very
happy indeed.

Thanks Again,

Jerry Stewart
Chicago, Ill.



--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

Jerry,

It's hard to say with any authority, as the General Mechanical

Office

files that would have the information seem to no longer exist, so

all

I can cite is photos, and it is sometimes hard to distinguish the
black from the FCR car.

Builder's photos of the cars show black backgrounds, at least

through

1926, and I don't see any reason that there'd be a change before the
beginning of the Great Depression. I have a copy of a nice photo of
one of the 1913 built cars with the new data arrangement and a 1933
scale date, and it has a black background, so repaints done during

the

period must have also been done this way.

During the late thirties and through WWII, the railroad was in the
throes of an austerity program, as both the Soo Line and leased
subsidiary Wisconsin Central were in bankruptcy. Use of the "$"

herald

with an "open" (car color) background on cabooses is well

documented,

but harder to do so on freight cars. It may well be that they just
weren't repainting many freight cars. However, builders photos of

all

the new steel AAR boxcars that came from Pullman during the late
thirties and early forties definitely show black backgrounds in the
heralds. This may reflect the lack of any incremental cost

difference

on new cars, compared to the more closely accounted for costs in
their own shops.

After WWII, when the Soo began assembling their own cars at the WC
shops in North Fond du Lac, the original run of cars built in 1949

had

heralds without any black. This continued with the "sawtooth" cars
rebuilt with new roofs and underframes in 1950, when the Korean
conflict put the crimp on steel supplies for building new cars, and
again when new car construction resumed in 1951. Midway through the
1951 production is when the first "boxcar block" lettering was
introduced; the lettering wandering around the car side a bit until
they settled on the placement they wanted, and this was the

effective

end of the use of the "$" herald on new cars, although it re-

appeared

with a black background on cabooses about this same time.

Based on this, I'd say that the majority of "sawtooth" cars seen

after

WWII would not have black in the heralds; only old cars not

repainted

since the early thirties still having black heralds. However, I

can't

discount the fact that one of the smaller car shops was still using
black, since it was still in use on cabooses, and certainly enough
steel cars were coming in with black heralds. Photos taken in the
fifties show most wood cars with "open" heralds.

Hope this helps.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis,
Thanks for the great explanation! I have two questions.
First, you mention that the 1926 cars had corrugated ends.
Were these 7/8 ends like the Accurail cars have?
Also, were the Soo and the Northern Pacific arched roofs from
the same supplier? I was able to use Details West Northern Pacific
arched roofs by cutting one panel from one end, and grafting it onto
the opposite end, then narrowing the roof at the centerline. The Soo
roof has one fewer cap seams than the NP roof, and by narrowing it at
the centerline, the new center seam is easy to hide under the roof walk.

Thanks again for the information!
Phil Buchwald


--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
>
> Tom Houle's article on scratchbuilding a Soo Line "sawtooth" SS

boxcar

> in O scale was an interesting read on building a prototype currently
> unavailable as a kit; however, the car number on the model (SOO
> 7594230) is almost certainly bogus. What's the real car series for
> this prototype?

Ben,

The short answer is 32800 - 41798 and 131000 - 135798, all even numbers
only. Almost 7000 cars, built by several different builders over a

period

of seventeen years. There was also a tall 1 1/2 door automobile

version and

a 36' long stockcar not included in the above total. It's a hard to

get any

more specific than that, as Mr. Houle's model seems to be a mix of

details

from different series.

I did measured drawings from field notes some years ago that have never
been published (because I detest inking drawings). These were the

basis for

my resin kit of twenty years ago, and also the Chooch "Ultra Scale"

O scale

kit offered just recently. There is presently a gentleman who has

offered

to redraw my drawings in CAD, which would make it easy to modify

them to

reflect the different variations, so hopefully they'll finally be

published

sometime soon.

One problem I have with going to print is I still don't have the basic
story behind the origins of the design. Briefly, the "sawtooth" look

comes

from using a heavy 4" x 6" angle section for a side sill, rather

than the

more traditional channel section. The legs of the angle faced upward

and

inward, similar to the angle section side sill of the much later AAR

design

boxcars, providing a ledge for the floor and a grain tight

connection with

the side sheathing. Because the side sill was above the plane of the
underframe, the crossbearers could extend under it and connect

directly to

the side posts, making a simple but very solid connection

reminiscent of

how the floor beams are connected to the lower chord of a bridge truss,
transferring the load directly from the floor to the truss. However,

since

the Soo Line cars were originally designed with massive fish belly
centersills, I don't believe that the engineering was that

sophisticated; I

think the designers were simply looking for a simple floor to side

connection.

And that leads me to my question; who was responsible for this

design, the

Soo Line, or AC&F. The upper body framing traces its lineage

directly to

the early 36' single sheathed cars developed jointly by the Canadian
Pacific and Dominion Car & Foundry in the last years of the first

decade of

the twentieth century. This design passed directly to the Soo Line

with a

group of 750 identical copies built by AC&F in 1912. However, while

the CPR

continued to build the 36' version, the next year the Soo purchased 40'
cars with nearly duplicate upper body framing, but this radically

different

underframe. AC&F was also building cars with similar underframes for
several other roads at that time; a car for the Frisco built the

same year

as the Soo cars is shown in the 1919 Cyc., but only the Soo seemed

to like

the design enough to continue to use it, ultimately having it built by
several different builders. The Soo Line Historical & Technical Society
archives unfortunately does not have the Mechanical Dept.

correspondence

files that might answer this question; apparently, they no longer

exist.

Has anyone ever found a reference to this car framing in the ACF

archives,

or in the preserved materials from the other users, SL-SF and MoP?

As to the cars themselves, I divide them into three rough groups,

based on

design features. The cars built in 1913, 14, and 15, all by AC&F,

have 5'

wide door openings, extremely deep (31") centersills, and 9" channel
crossbearers. The cars built in 1920, 21, and 23 by Haskel & Barker,

then

Pullman after they absorbed H&B, and AC&F again retained the 5'

door, but

had shallower centersills of USRA proportions (26" deep) and made

use of

more pressings in the underframe. The cars built by Pullman in 1926,

27,

29, 30, and by Siems - Stembel Co. in 1929 had arch roofs, 6' door
openings, and metal ends. The 1926 built cars had corrugated ends

and wood

doors; the later cars had Dreadnaught ends and top supported

Younsgstown

doors with Camel fittings, except the cars built in 1930 had bottom
supported doors.

I could elaborate further if anyone wants more info.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:

Dennis,
Thanks for the great explanation! I have two questions.
First, you mention that the 1926 cars had corrugated ends.
Were these 7/8 ends like the Accurail cars have?

Unfortunately, no, they are 7 / 7.

Also, were the Soo and the Northern Pacific arched roofs from
the same supplier? I was able to use Details West Northern Pacific
arched roofs by cutting one panel from one end, and grafting it onto
the opposite end, then narrowing the roof at the centerline. The Soo
roof has one fewer cap seams than the NP roof, and by narrowing it at
the centerline, the new center seam is easy to hide under the roof walk.

They appear to be. I don't know specifically what the NP used. The Soo was a big user of Chicago-Cleveland Co. roofing products. Surviving cars from the pre-WW I orders have either the "Superior Outside Metal Roof" (with tubular seam caps) or the "Perfection Flexible Outside Metal Roof" (with flat seam caps). These are both sheet metal roof systems that need to be installed over a wood roof. The cars built in the late 1920 all had the "Zenith" roof, IIRC (can't find my reference for the name.) This was a sheet metal roof meant to cover a wood arch roof. The panels (without pressings) ran continuous from one side of the car to the other, the ends being flanged down and nailed to the fascia. The seams were covered with tubular caps that terminated in iron castings screwed to the fascia. The old Central Valley stockcar roof (I assume this is what you were able to get from DA) was a good model of this, doing the cast clamps rather well. This roof is also usable for modeling a Soo line milk car.

I went to upload some photos to the Files area, and see that it's full. I'll have to get logged on to the STMPH list, but won't get to that for a bit.

By the way, I just noticed that the 1926 cars DO NOT have the Dalman two level trucks, but rather standard looking Andrews trucks.


Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

List,

Here, as promised, is a photo history of the Soo Line "sawtooth" boxcars. Go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFPH/files/Soo_%22Sawtooth%22_Primer/

There was no good place to put a roster, so I'll put it here:


Cars owned by the M St P & S Ste M

32800 - 35798 AC&F 1913
35800 - 36596 AC&F 1915
38-200 - 39198 H&B 1920
39200 - 40198 AC&F 1923
40200 - 40998 Pullman 1928
41000 - 41398 Pullman 1929
41400 - 41798 Siems-Stembel Co. 1929


Cars owned by Wisconsin Central

131000 - 132098 AC&F 1914
132100 - 133398 Pullman 1921
133400 - 134398 Pullman 1923
134400 - 135398 Pullman 1926
135400 - 135798 Pullman 1930

All series are even numbers only.

Missing from this are the 245 cars rebuilt in 1950 from various cars built in in 1913, 14, and 15 and renumbered Soo 100 - 444 (even) and WC 1500 - 1652 (even). These cars received diagonal panel roofs and AAR straight center sills with channel side sills, thereby becoming something other than "sawtooth" cars, although the side and end framing looks the same.



Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL