Call for slides


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking. Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@.... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain to be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

I may have some and will look thru my collection.
--
Thanks!


Brian Ehni

From: bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:54:39 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Call for slides

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking. Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@.... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain to be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso







Yahoo! Groups Links







Paul LaCiura <paul.jeseng@...>
 

Gene,

Why do they have to demount the slides?

I use a Minolta Dimage scanner that loads 4-5 at a time in their mounts.

I am just curious as to why they do this. It seems unnecessary.

Paul

Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA
spdaylight.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
bierglaeser
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Call for slides

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking. Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@.... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain to be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso







Yahoo! Groups Links







--
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Tim O'Connor
 

Gene,

Only slides? No 35mm or 120 negs? Is that Morning Sun policy?

Tim


Tim O'Connor
 

They probably use a drum scanner or other device that
wants the film directly up against the glass, to reduce
distortion. (Although judging by the quality of several MS
books this hasn't made that big a difference.)

Tim O.

Gene,
Why do they have to demount the slides?


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Paul,
I agree with you. Speaking only of Morning Sun, books a few years
back were published without demounting the slides. I thought they
were OK.

The publisher told me a few days ago that they resumed opening the
slide mounts because they get better quality that way. I really
don't know one way or another as I have never even seen a slide
scanner, let alone use one.

I will tell you this. Some slide owners get angry when their slides
are demounted so I like to be up front about it.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul LaCiura" <paul.jeseng@s...> wrote:

Gene,

Why do they have to demount the slides?

I use a Minolta Dimage scanner that loads 4-5 at a time in their
mounts.

I am just curious as to why they do this. It seems unnecessary.

Paul

Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA
spdaylight.com
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of
bierglaeser
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Call for slides

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and
cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a
nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking.
Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such
as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@y... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain to
be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and
get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I
understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso







Yahoo! Groups Links







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11/8/2005


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date:
11/8/2005


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Tim,
I am told that slides give better results. Again, I don't know. I'm
not involved in that aspect of the publishing.

That being said, I do know that I have used color slides larger than
35mm as well as a few color prints. The CNW Official Photography book
was a real mixture of photographic media. I have a couple of killer 3"
x 5" color slides for the CNW books.

If someone offers color material that fills a gap, regardless the
format, I'll get it into the book.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

Gene,

Only slides? No 35mm or 120 negs? Is that Morning Sun policy?

Tim


Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

If the slides are remounted in plastic holders (rather than in the sliced
and Scotch taped original cardboard mounts as some hobby magazines did many,
many years ago), owners might be less concerned. Before moving to PowerPoint
clinic presentations, I've had large quantities of clinic slides remounted
in plastic simply to avoid jamming problems during presentations....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Unless they promise to remount the slides (since, after all, they are being
borrowed, not sold, and this is all for their benefit), count me out.
--

Brian Ehni

From: bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:02:30 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Call for slides

Paul,
I agree with you. Speaking only of Morning Sun, books a few years
back were published without demounting the slides. I thought they
were OK.

The publisher told me a few days ago that they resumed opening the
slide mounts because they get better quality that way. I really
don't know one way or another as I have never even seen a slide
scanner, let alone use one.

I will tell you this. Some slide owners get angry when their slides
are demounted so I like to be up front about it.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul LaCiura" <paul.jeseng@s...> wrote:

Gene,

Why do they have to demount the slides?

I use a Minolta Dimage scanner that loads 4-5 at a time in their
mounts.

I am just curious as to why they do this. It seems unnecessary.

Paul

Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA
spdaylight.com
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of
bierglaeser
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Call for slides

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and
cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a
nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking.
Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such
as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@y... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain to
be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and
get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I
understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso







Yahoo! Groups Links







--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date:
11/8/2005


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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date:
11/8/2005







Yahoo! Groups Links







Curt Fortenberry <arrphoto@...>
 

Really? I've had my slides used by MSB before in other books, and if
they opened them they did a bang fine job as I was never warned of
this and I certainly didn't notice it when they came back. Is this
something recent?

Curt Fortenberry

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Not sure of the publisher, but one was reported to have actually CUT the
slides to fit the page layout, and also thereby ensure they would never be
duplicated and resold.
--

Brian Ehni

From: Curt Fortenberry <arrphoto@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 02:07:36 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Call for slides

Really? I've had my slides used by MSB before in other books, and if
they opened them they did a bang fine job as I was never warned of
this and I certainly didn't notice it when they came back. Is this
something recent?

Curt Fortenberry

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.


Tony Thompson
 

The publisher told me a few days ago that they resumed opening the
slide mounts because they get better quality that way. I really
don't know one way or another as I have never even seen a slide
scanner, let alone use one.
This is dumb. There is no technical reason which requires demounting.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

The publisher won't make that promise, but I understand your
position.

Personally, I'd argue against remounting. Most of the slides I work
with have quite a bit of information written on the mount. I'd hate
to see that information lost or garbled by someone transcribing
things he/she didn't understand.

Don't forget that when the draft for one of these books leaves the
author's hand it goes to people who don't know beans from buckshot
about railroads.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--- In STMFC@..., Brian Paul Ehni <behni@c...> wrote:

Unless they promise to remount the slides (since, after all, they
are being
borrowed, not sold, and this is all for their benefit), count me
out.
--

Brian Ehni


From: bierglaeser <bierglaeser@y...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:02:30 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Call for slides

Paul,
I agree with you. Speaking only of Morning Sun, books a few years
back were published without demounting the slides. I thought they
were OK.

The publisher told me a few days ago that they resumed opening the
slide mounts because they get better quality that way. I really
don't know one way or another as I have never even seen a slide
scanner, let alone use one.

I will tell you this. Some slide owners get angry when their
slides
are demounted so I like to be up front about it.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul LaCiura" <paul.jeseng@s...>
wrote:

Gene,

Why do they have to demount the slides?

I use a Minolta Dimage scanner that loads 4-5 at a time in their
mounts.

I am just curious as to why they do this. It seems unnecessary.

Paul

Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA
spdaylight.com
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of
bierglaeser
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Call for slides

I am working on the C&NW color guide for Morning Sun. I
envision a
two-volume set with 250 to 350 images in each. In addition to
the
freight and passenger cars, maintenance-of-way equipment and
cabooses
of the C&NW and Omaha Road, the books will also include quite a
nice
selection of images of M&StL, Litchfield & Madison, Des Moines &
Central Iowa and FtDDM&S freight cars and MOW equipment.

Coverage of plain old flat cars and wooden cabooses is lacking.
Also
lacking are slides of CNW or CMO box cars with slogans such
as "Route
of the Streamliners," etc.

If anyone has slides they would like to loan for the book please
contact me directly at bierglaeser@y... That is bierglaeser at
yahoo dot com.

Slides from the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s are almost certain
to
be
used unless they are very poorly exposed or composed. Slides
from
the 1970s and 1980s will be used only if they fill a real gap.
Slides from the 1990s are undesireable although a few will likely
appear in the book.

The Morning Sun "deal" is this; loan some slides that we use and
get
a free copy of the book they are used in.

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed
for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays.
If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I
understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images
preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso







Yahoo! Groups Links







--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date:
11/8/2005


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/163 - Release Date:
11/8/2005







Yahoo! Groups Links







bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

There was a period when the slides were NOT removed from the mount for
scanning for a Morning Sun book. Demounting has been resumed. I don't
know why, but it has.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso

--- In STMFC@..., "Curt Fortenberry" <arrphoto@a...> wrote:

Really? I've had my slides used by MSB before in other books, and if
they opened them they did a bang fine job as I was never warned of
this and I certainly didn't notice it when they came back. Is this
something recent?

Curt Fortenberry

CAUTION: Your slide mounts will be opened and the film removed for
scanning. Sorry, but that's how Morning Sun does it nowadays. If
you don't want your slides opened, don't submit them. I
understand.
Having my slides opened bothers me but having the images preserved
forever and available to all is more important to me.


mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...> wrote:

This is dumb. There is no technical reason which requires
demounting.
If a desktop scanner is used, there is usually no need to remove the
slide from the mount, unless possibly the subject is cropped so
tightly that the mount covers part of it. However, if a drum scanner
is used, the film must be removed from the mount. It is then mounted
on the scanner drum with a thin film of oil. After scanning, the oil
is removed by dipping the film into a solvent and the film is returned
to the mount. Hopefully, the correct one.

I suspect that drum scanning might be less widely used than it once
was, with the escalating quality of desktop scanner.

Walt Lankenau


Tony Thompson
 

Walt Lankenau wrote:
If a desktop scanner is used, there is usually no need to remove the
slide from the mount, unless possibly the subject is cropped so
tightly that the mount covers part of it. However, if a drum scanner
is used, the film must be removed from the mount . . .
There is no reason to use a drum scanner for this today except for people who already have one and want to keep using it. Dedicated slide scanners like Nikon makes can produce up to 6000 dpi and have excellent software for color, focus, etc. That's why I said there is "no reason" to demount slides today. Of course Moaning Sun's printer in the outback may be a little behind the technical curve. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

My assumption was that, it I knew they would be remounted, I would copy off
the info first.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

From: bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:05:17 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Call for slides

The publisher won't make that promise, but I understand your
position.

Personally, I'd argue against remounting. Most of the slides I work
with have quite a bit of information written on the mount. I'd hate
to see that information lost or garbled by someone transcribing
things he/she didn't understand.

Don't forget that when the draft for one of these books leaves the
author's hand it goes to people who don't know beans from buckshot
about railroads.

Gene Green
Out in the West Texas Town of El Paso


vgnry <vgnry212@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...> wrote:

There is no reason to use a drum scanner for this today except
for people who already have one and want to keep using it. Dedicated
slide scanners like Nikon makes can produce up to 6000 dpi and have
excellent software for color, focus, etc. That's why I said there is
"no reason" to demount slides today. Of course Moaning Sun's printer in
the outback may be a little behind the technical curve.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of Mike by prolonging this thread, I think we should
should cut MSB some slack. If we want to see color guides produced, we need to
encourage people to come forward with precious material. Part of that is not scaring them.

Tony certainly knows the publishing business better than I. But having done some work for
Bob Yanosey, I know he uses a drum scanner because no desktop scanner matches the
quality of the scan. I don't think the issue is whether a desktop is good enough, but
whether it produces to Bob's standards or expectations. Pushing a 35mm slide to a full
two-page spread, or cropping to fit a layout will challenge any scanner but the best.

Slides have to be demounted for drum scanning, as mentioned, but are never cut to fit a
layout and are remounted in the original mounts because that is how they came to him.

I regularly use Nikon 4000 dpi desktop scanners. I know of none that reach 6000 dpi, and
in a quick search of the Web, I couldn't find one. I have been told that at 4000 dpi, which
is where the top models have been for several years, we are at the practical limit of useful
data to be had by a desktop model from a 35mm slide or neg. The scans produced are
very good to great...but they don't approach the level of a drum scan.

Bob's printer for the last several years has been in the Far East and is state of the art. The
reproduction quality is not always consistent, which could be because the slide was not
great, but the overall quality went up when he moved the color separations and printing
over there.

Bill McClure
Shot In The Dark Studio
Richmond, VA


Tony Thompson
 

Bill McClure said:
Tony certainly knows the publishing business better than I. But having done some work for
Bob Yanosey, I know he uses a drum scanner because no desktop scanner matches the
quality of the scan. I don't think the issue is whether a desktop is good enough, but
whether it produces to Bob's standards or expectations. Pushing a 35mm slide to a full
two-page spread, or cropping to fit a layout will challenge any scanner but the best.
Agreed, but not because of scanner limitations. Few 35 mm slides are sharp enough with ANY scanner for a two-page spread. And 4000 dpi does indeed permit 2-page size images, which are as good as the original slide for sharpness. It is certainly true that a drum scanner has a very high upside--you can make 35 mm images to the size of the side of a bus--but you would not be happy with the results, with most slides. I will stick to what I said: using a drum scanner for 35 mm slides is using a sledgehammer to kill ants. That, of course, may be to Bob Y's liking. As with many things, YMMV.

I regularly use Nikon 4000 dpi desktop scanners. I know of none that reach 6000 dpi, and
in a quick search of the Web, I couldn't find one. I have been told that at 4000 dpi, which
is where the top models have been for several years, we are at the practical limit of useful
data to be had by a desktop model from a 35mm slide or neg.
Correct. I have a Nikon Coolscan 5000 and had been told that the Coolscan 9000 could do 6000 dpi, but that clearly isn't true. On the other hand, let's not confuse conventional flatbed scanners (which is what most people mean by "desktop" scanners) with dedicated slide scanners like the Nikon models. I don't think Bill misunderstands this, but some readers may not be clear on it.
I'll repeat: first, the Nikon 4000 dpi DOES acquire perfectly fine images as big as a 2-page spread; and second, few slides I've seen have the quality to stand up to same.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Andy Carlson
 

Tony (and others)

I have scanned a slide I took of a BN (former SP&S) 12
panel boxcar at 4000 DPI on my dedicated 35mm Polaroid
SprintScan 4000 scanner, and I was surprised that a
boxcar full broadside shot when magnified showed the
paint layers lifting up off of the rivets like little
shower caps. The tack boards had flat grain I could
identify wood species (Doug Fir). My original slide
was shot with a Tokina zoom lens, not one of my
sharper fixed focal length Canon lenses, yet I was
still blown away with the ability of this 4000 DPI
scanner.
With "connect the dots" photos printed in the color
books, it would seem anything more than these 4000 DPI
scanners is indeed a "Sledge Hammer" Thanks Tony,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

I'll repeat: first, the Nikon 4000 dpi
DOES acquire perfectly
fine images as big as a 2-page spread; and second,
few slides I've seen
have the quality to stand up to same.