I would agree with Tony on several points. While I subscribe to the Gazette
and enjoy many of the articles and the level of modeling in many of the
articles (although much of it is not prototype), there is rarely anything in
that magazine for the freight car modeler. I also think that MR leans too
far toward the newbie, especially at this time of year. I have written to
Terry Thompson about this but he personally feels that they also cater to
the experienced modelers and have a good balance.

I think that the division of the hobby that Tony mentions goes beyond the
NMRA and historical societies and magazines. As freight car modelers pass on
the NMRA convention for the Freight Car Nationals and publish freight car
articles on-line rather than in national magazines, the rest of the modelers
are left out and not exposed to this aspect of the hobby. Ted's articles in
RMC, I think, go a long way toward exposing the hobby to prototype modeling
and I would like to see more of them.

To a certain degree, we are now enjoying the success of articles that
Richard, Martin, Al, and others wrote for MM and RMJ 10-20 years ago....we
can now buy plastic or resin kits of many of the subjects of those articles.
Many times, it is no longer modeling SP box cars from Athearn plastic
shake-the-box but making sure that you get the right decals for your
modeling year with Martin's latest release. I have a complete set of back
issues of MM saved for scratchbuilding projects which will now never be
undertaken because of the success of Sunshine, Westerfield, Intermountain,
etc. (Shortly after MM was launched, I scratchbuilt a double-sheath box car
from the plans and photos in that first issue, never considering that a
company would, a few years later, release a kit for the same car.)

I'd like to see MR or RMC have more prototype articles to provide more
exposure to this side of the hobby but maybe we are such a minority that it
isn't going to happen....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

It's no surprise that most of what Jack wrote on this topic is
eminently sensible. I have just a couple of comments.

...I also think that MR leans too
far toward the newbie, especially at this time of year. I have written
to
Terry Thompson about this but he personally feels that they also cater
to
the experienced modelers and have a good balance.

How would he know? He's not an experienced modeler by any stretch of
the imagination. From my perspective, MR was a much better publication
when it had an experienced modeler at the helm. Terry and cohorts
succeeded in dumbing it down to the point where I stopped subscribing,
and every time I glance at it in a hobby shop my decision to do so is
confirmed.

I think that the division of the hobby that Tony mentions goes beyond
the
NMRA and historical societies and magazines. As freight car modelers
pass on
the NMRA convention for the Freight Car Nationals and publish freight
car
articles on-line rather than in national magazines, the rest of the
modelers
are left out and not exposed to this aspect of the hobby. Ted's
articles in
RMC, I think, go a long way toward exposing the hobby to prototype
modeling
and I would like to see more of them.

Let's not forget the specialized publications like Hawkins' and Wider's
Railway Prototype Cyclopedia and Ted's new Prototype Railroad Modeling.
Though their circulation may be small, they are of great value to
serious scale modelers and have an influence with model RR
manufacturers out of all proportion to their circulation. More and
more manufacturers are moving in the direction of greatly improved
detail and more prototype fidelity because that's the way the market is
moving, and they don't find the kind of information they need to
produce such products in MR. I just received one of Athearn's new PS-2
covered hoppers (which, unfortunately, is too modern for me to use on
my diorama) and this morning I've been comparing the model with the
prototype photos. The model is spot-on accurate and stunningly well
detailed, with etched metal running boards, wire grabs, metal wheels,
knuckle couplers, and complete, correct lettering. From Athearn, who
used to give us ugly claw door slides, grossly out-of-scale molded-on
sill steps, and horn/hook couplers? You bet, baby – the hobby is in
the midst of profound changes, and we haven't seen the end of them by
any means. The toy train market has tanked. Kids want video games and
portable electronic gadgets; it's mostly nostalgic adults who buy toy
trains, and their ranks are thinning fast. Increasingly, it's adult
scale modelers who are buying train stuff, and as the quality of the
products available to them improves, their expectations grow more
demanding. My hope has always been that model railroading would
attract fewer bozos and more modelers who are inspired by guys like
Jack Burgess, and I think that hope is being fulfilled.

Richard Hendrickson

Jack Burgess writes:

Ted's articles in

RMC, I think, go a long way toward exposing the hobby to prototype modeling
and I would like to see more of them.

Jack refers to, of course, Ted Culotta. His series on the Essential Frt Cars must be considered as a monumental effort and greatly applauded. RMC must also be applauded, I think, for running the series. I would think it would be good fodder for a book later on. I find it hard to see how Ted has been able to do all that he has in the length of time he has done it. I feel like a doddering old "has been" when I compare my activities with Ted's. Or...better yet...maybe just "doddering and old"...maybe I never had "it" at all.

Richard Hendrickson notes:

"From my perspective, MR was a much better publication
when it had an experienced modeler at the helm."

I completely concur. I was startled not long ago to read in the editorial section of MR that the hobby was entering the "sound" era and that speakers could be placed in our models to generate renditions of real locomotives. I thought...golly...wonder if Terry is unaware that some of us had been generating sound from our locomotives since 1981...fully 24 yrs ago by my count...using PFM sound systems. And, BTW, the whistle's are still better than any DCC system I've heard. And, nooo...we aren't going to get into a discussion on sound systems here [ there will, I think, be such a forum during Prototype Rails ].

Richard continue's with:

"Let's not forget the specialized publications like Hawkins' and Wider's
Railway Prototype Cyclopedia and Ted's new Prototype Railroad Modeling."

Absolutely. First rate stuff.

"You bet, baby - the hobby is in
the midst of profound changes, and we haven't seen the end of them by
any means. The toy train market has tanked. Kids want video games and
portable electronic gadgets; it's mostly nostalgic adults who buy toy
trains, and their ranks are thinning fast. Increasingly, it's adult
scale modelers who are buying train stuff, and as the quality of the
products available to them improves, their expectations grow more
demanding."

An interesting point and perhaps why there IS an increasing market for both accurate products AND the prototype meets and historical socities.

Mike Brock

Mike mentioned:

"I completely concur. I was startled not long ago to read in the editorial
section of MR that the hobby was entering the "sound" era and that speakers
could be placed in our models to generate renditions of real locomotives. I
thought...golly...wonder if Terry is unaware that some of us had been
generating sound from our locomotives since 1981."

Maybe Terry was just noticing that manufacturers were starting to sell
engines already equipped with sound units so that the modeler didn't need to
model anything. That could explain why MR tends toward the ready-to-run
crowd. <g>

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...> wrote:

Let's not forget the specialized publications like Hawkins' and Wider's
Railway Prototype Cyclopedia and Ted's new Prototype Railroad Modeling.
Though their circulation may be small, they are of great value to
serious scale modelers and have an influence with model RR
manufacturers out of all proportion to their circulation.

I've been following this discussion with much interest. Based upon the circulation of RP
CYC, Ted's PRM, the number of attendees at Martin's meet, and the number of subscibers
to this list, the market for detailed information on prototype freight cars, much less for
highly detailed kits that require assemby, is very, very limited. And based upon my own
numbers, it ain't growing. It's going the other way. That's why the various manufacturers
are concentrating on selling detailed RTR freight car models assembled in China. There's
no need to build anything nor research anything other than, "hey guys, is so and so model
correct"? You've all seen the messages. Also, I would bet most subscribers to this list or
who buy RP CYC don't have large, highly detailed operating layouts with signal systems,
sound, and scenery. I don't but I hope to change that situation now that I'm finally retired.
MR is the way it is because that's where the money's at. Your thoughts??

Pat Wider

In the words of Louis XIV, "Shorter is not better!"

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX

Ah, Pat, in the immortal words of someone or other "It's lonely at the top".

Face it, you are at the pinnacle of your hobby, clinging to that windswept peak
with a few hundred other diehards... But you know what? All those other guys
(and gals) who are still slogging through the jungle or relaxing in the meadows
at the base of the mountain are looking up -- and who do they see up there?

You, buddy.

The point is that you & Ed & Tom M & Richard H & Tony T, et al are busy creating
a lasting and valuable record. Long after all the crummy model trains have been
disposed of in landfills, I'll wager precious few "museum pieces" will have met
that fate. And the books and publications will grace the shelves of the serious
modelers and yes, even real libraries, for generations to come.

It's not about numbers. It's never been about numbers. Vendors come and
go, but does it really matter? The whole industry could be recreated from
scratch if it ever came to that, because the ESSENTIAL FACTS have been
put on paper and published.

I would make the argument that home layouts are mostly a diversion from the
serious business of research and modeling! I plan to build a small shelf layout
mainly for testing and break-in as well as simple enjoyment, but I realize now
that I want to be a model builder, not a carpenter.

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@c... wrote:

Ah, Pat, in the immortal words of someone or other "It's lonely at the top".

Face it, you are at the pinnacle of your hobby, clinging to that windswept peak
with a few hundred other diehards...

Ah, the top of the ziggurat!!!!!!!! Yes, that and a couple of bucks will buy me a ride on the
New York Subway, but not today..........

But you know what? All those other guys
(and gals) who are still slogging through the jungle or relaxing in the meadows
at the base of the mountain are looking up -- and who do they see up there?

You, buddy.

What gals???

The point is that you & Ed & Tom M & Richard H & Tony T, et al are busy creating
a lasting and valuable record. Long after all the crummy model trains have been
disposed of in landfills, I'll wager precious few "museum pieces" will have met
that fate. And the books and publications will grace the shelves of the serious
modelers and yes, even real libraries, for generations to come.

Please tell me what landfill the brass steam locomotive models are going to.......

It's not about numbers. It's never been about numbers. Vendors come and
go, but does it really matter? The whole industry could be recreated from
scratch if it ever came to that, because the ESSENTIAL FACTS have been
put on paper and published.

Do you mean correcting the PS-0 box car terminology thing?? (-:

I would make the argument that home layouts are mostly a diversion from the
serious business of research and modeling! I plan to build a small shelf layout
mainly for testing and break-in as well as simple enjoyment, but I realize now
that I want to be a model builder, not a carpenter.

Tim O'Connor

Why would you build a shelf layout for breaking in models if you didn't have a larger
layout to run them on??????? I'm puzzled.

Seriously......... What changes, if any, would you like to see us make to RP CYC? We're
thinking of more (shorter) articles. More color is out since there aren't that many good
color photos from the '30s, '40s, and even '50s. Plus we can't afford the extra printing
cost. (I bet Ted lost his shirt). The problem with shorter articles is that they tend to grow
in length. Ed and I are constantly fighting space (page number) limitations. I started work
on a "short" article on Milwaukee ribbed-side box cars and it grew in length to encompass
75 pages. Ugh!!! A simple article on lightweight passenger cars (a subject you guy's
hate), took up an entire CYC. Yeah, I know, a bunch of wasted pages.

Pat Wider

Pat Wider writes:

What changes, if any, would you like to see us make to RP CYC?

I would like to see in published as a PDF file on a CD !!
But then, I would like to see all model train magazines &
soft cover publications done that way...

Or you could even publish it as a HTML (Web format) document
with embedded videos & audios. Then publish an article on
the different sounds of steam locomotives with links to AVI
files that can be downloaded into the new generation DCC
decoders!


Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:
<snip>

Seriously......... What changes, if any, would you like to see us

make to RP CYC? We're

thinking of more (shorter) articles. <snip>
Pat Wider

But those longer articles give all the details! Shorter isn't the
answer. I vote for higher prices and more pages.
Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso

I'm with Gene.

SGL

I would make the argument that home layouts are mostly a diversion from the
serious business of research and modeling! I plan to build a small shelf layout
mainly for testing and break-in as well as simple enjoyment, but I realize now
that I want to be a model builder, not a carpenter.

Tim O'Connor

Well...I take a different point of view. As much as I enjoy building these nice models that are available to us through the wonderful efforts of the folks you and others have mentioned these models, to me anyway, are nothing more than very nice game pieces on that large gameboard that is my layout. But don't get me wrong! No way do I want to go back to the old days of blue boxes.

Bill Darnaby

Me three

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@v...> wrote:

I'm with Gene.

SGL

But those longer articles give all the details! Shorter
isn't the answer. I vote for higher prices and more pages.
Gene Green

So it's two for longer articles and higher prices and one against. Remember - there was
one guy who lambasted me because he missed the offer to save $5 on our last book!

Pat Wider

Pat (and Ed),
Being fundamentally a cheap SO..., I am against higher prices. Shorter
articles are ok, but keep the details above all(so I guess I agree with
Gene!). Whatever you do keep 'em coming!
Joe Binish

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

Pat Wider writes:

What changes, if any, would you like to see us make to RP CYC?

I would like to see in published as a PDF file on a CD !!

That's easily done since that's precisely how we send it to the printer. But the technology
would also allow many bootleg copies to be made and Ed and I wouldn't get rich working
our little enterprise! Imagine what would happen once the Chinese got ahold of the latest
volume!

Or you could even publish it as a HTML (Web format) document
with embedded videos & audios.

Ed and I could even sing for you. (-:

Then publish an article on
the different sounds of steam locomotives with links to AVI
files that can be downloaded into the new generation DCC
decoders!

Bah, that's now old technology! Think model freight car holograms.

Pat Wider

Pat Wider wrote:
(responding to this from Tim O'C.:)

Then publish an article on
the different sounds of steam locomotives with links to AVI
files that can be downloaded into the new generation DCC
decoders!

Bah, that's now old technology! Think model freight car holograms.

Now we're talkin' serious. We can Photoshop the images and refine the holograms to our heart's content, then "put" them on the track. So much for knives, glue and paint!! When does the RPCYC software for this go on sale, Pat?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Count me as another with Gene. I want the complete info and do not mind paying a reasonable price for it. Or as you've done on earlier issues, break up the really long articles into two or three sections.
Charlie

Tim O'Connor writes:

I would make the argument that home layouts are mostly a diversion from the
serious business of research and modeling! I plan to build a small shelf layout
mainly for testing and break-in as well as simple enjoyment, but I realize now
that I want to be a model builder, not a carpenter.

I think Tim is overlooking the fact that buiding models of real railroads is as difficult as building models of parts of them....frt cars. In fact, building models of scenery and structures is also as difficult and skills as a carpenter won't help much...except to get one started. I have to agree with Bill Darnaby that our frt car models are part of an arena in which a real world "drama" is portrayed in miniature...the operation of a model RR simulating a real one. I differ somewhat from some operators, though, in that I demand that the models, the railroad, and the scenery through which it passes are to be observed and appreciated whether the arena is motionless or portaying an active op session. I do think, however, that model railroading is dynamic...our models are supposed to move...and make sounds. It's akin to a lifeless steam loco sitting in a park compared to one rolling down a track. The lifeless engine might grant one the means to study and analyze but the one rolling gives one the reason to be interested at all...at least to me.

Mike Brock

About the RP Cyc --

Count me in for a longer even if more expensive magazine, too!

I think of these more as a reference book than a magazine.

Keep 'em coming, please!

Steve Busch
Duncan, SC