Unproduced frt cars


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jeff English notes about the number of unproduced models of frt cars [ in HO scale ]:

My point is only that there's plenty more to be produced and we're
not out of the woods yet.
Given that, what car do you now believe should be on the Most Wanted List? Let's add that the car should be commonly found on at least 5 major Class I RRs. We might even want two categories...one for injection molding in which large numbers of the prototype are required...and two for a resin car in which such large numbers would not be necessary.

My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point of view:

The AAR Alternatre Standfard 34 ft offset side hopper car.

Mike Brock....running for cover


Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Mike and list,

I know what mine is in N scale - a 36 foot ventilated boxcar, preferably an ACL 17000-series. These cars were used by all the roads on the South and were seen all over the Eastern half of the USA.

It's the "screen door" that makes it a bear to try to scratchbuild.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast
-------------------------------------------------

Mike Brock writes:


Jeff English notes about the number of unproduced models of frt cars [ in
HO scale ]:

My point is only that there's plenty more to be produced and we're
not out of the woods yet.

Given that, what car do you now believe should be on the Most Wanted List?
Let's add that the car should be commonly found on at least 5 major Class I
RRs. We might even want two categories...one for injection molding in which
large numbers of the prototype are required...and two for a resin car in
which such large numbers would not be necessary.

My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point of view:

The AAR Alternatre Standard 34 ft offset side hopper car.

Mike Brock....running for cover


Greg Martin
 

Mike writes:

"My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point of view:

The AAR Alternate Standard 34 ft offset side hopper car.

Mike Brock....running for cover "

Mike,

That wouldn't be my first choice as it is already coming...

I would rather see the NYC 40-foot boxcar that we have beat to death on this
list... I am going to make sure it gets done... and Not in Resin...

Greg Martin


Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

what car do you now believe should be on the Most Wanted List?
I second your motion for the AAR alt standard offset hopper, a
perennial favorite! Numerically I believe the hobby still lacks
gondolas, and tank cars. Just think how common GS gondolas were
for example, and how many different styles there were. Someone
a few years ago acquired the Ulrich tooling and was looking into
having upgraded models assembled in China but I don't know what
became of that. Ulrich produced the AAR alt std hopper too but
overall it was pretty long in the tooth...

Although many box cars and reefers are lacking, there are quite
a few hundred physically different models available in HO, which
is not something you can say for hoppers or gondolas or flat cars.
And stock cars are missing for specific prototypes: D&RGW, C&NW,
come immediately to mind.

The greatest lack is for us poor 1960 era modelers, because the
mid 1950's is where the number of models drops off a cliff -- few
mechanical reefers, welded tank cars, flat cars, and piggyback
cars. You guys probably don't realize it but 45 years after the
introduction of 89 foot TOFC flats, there is only ONE accurate
version in HO -- from Walthers! I mean, here is a type of car
that came to virtually replace the box car, and modelers still
have to cut up, kitbash or scratchbuild these things, just like
the steam era guys were doing 20 years ago...

Tim O'Connor


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 25, 2005, at 7:56 AM, Mike Brock wrote:

My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point of view:

The AAR Alternatre Standfard 34 ft offset side hopper car.
It's coming. So kwicherbitchin.

Merry Christmas

Richard Hendrickson


Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>
 

According to the Ulrich web site (
http://www.ulrichmodels.com/Newsletter-Dec.pdf )

"The


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 25, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Mike Brock wrote

what car do you now believe should be on the Most Wanted List?
I second your motion for the AAR alt standard offset hopper, a
perennial favorite!
Not with us west coast modelers it isn't, as I periodically have to remind you guys. Still, you're right that, on the whole, it's one of the prototypes that most needs to be modeled. But, as I told Mike Brock, there's already a model under development, so just be patient.

Numerically I believe the hobby still lacks
gondolas, and tank cars. Just think how common GS gondolas were
for example, and how many different styles there were. Someone
a few years ago acquired the Ulrich tooling and was looking into
having upgraded models assembled in China but I don't know what
became of that. Ulrich produced the AAR alt std hopper too but
overall it was pretty long in the tooth...

Although many box cars and reefers are lacking, there are quite
a few hundred physically different models available in HO, which
is not something you can say for hoppers or gondolas or flat cars.
And stock cars are missing for specific prototypes: D&RGW, C&NW,
come immediately to mind.
No disagreement with any of the above, though the market for at least some of these prototypes (e.g. the stock cars) is limited enough that they'll have to be done in resin, give the current economics of tooling for injection molded styrene.

The greatest lack is for us poor 1960 era modelers, because the
mid 1950's is where the number of models drops off a cliff -- few
mechanical reefers, welded tank cars, flat cars, and piggyback
cars. You guys probably don't realize it but 45 years after the
introduction of 89 foot TOFC flats, there is only ONE accurate
version in HO -- from Walthers! I mean, here is a type of car
that came to virtually replace the box car, and modelers still
have to cut up, kitbash or scratchbuild these things, just like
the steam era guys were doing 20 years ago...
All true, and as a steam era modeler I feel your pain (but I don't feel a whole lot of pain, given all the good stuff we're getting these days).

Anyway, talk is cheap and what the manufacturers need is reasonable input (not the usual "we really need Missabe Road box cars and me and my five friends will buy a whole bunch) plus the prototype data, drawings, and photos needed to produce the models. Providing it is what I spend a lot of my time doing these days, thus helping to insure that we all have a very happy new year.

Richard Hendrickson


Greg Martin
 

Tim Gilbert says:

Regarding DRG&W, C&NW Stock Cars, it might be hard for a modeler of most
other roads to justify having any of these stock cars on his line;<<


Mike Replies...

Man...what an interesting statement to consider. If Tim had merely
said..."many" instead of most, it would be easy to reject...the C&NW part. Consider
the number of RRs in the "midwest". C&EI, C&IM, CGW, Soo, Monon, MP, Milw, Q,
Pennsy, B&O, C&O, NYC, IC, ATSF, Southern, MK&T on and on and on. A C&NW
stock car could easily be found on these roads but are they the majority?<

I have seen plenty CNW stock cars on the PRR in the mid-50's, perhaps more
than PRR stock cars as well as NP and "Q" cars... So, why not a good styrene
"Q" stock car and a good CNW stock car? They would sell.

Greg Martin


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:


Mike Brock wrote

what car do you now believe should be on the Most Wanted List?
I second your motion for the AAR alt standard offset hopper, a
perennial favorite! Numerically I believe the hobby still lacks
gondolas, and tank cars. Just think how common GS gondolas were
for example, and how many different styles there were. Someone
a few years ago acquired the Ulrich tooling and was looking into
having upgraded models assembled in China but I don't know what
became of that. Ulrich produced the AAR alt std hopper too but
overall it was pretty long in the tooth...
Tim,

According to the April 1949 ORER, there were about 301,000 Gons listed as owned by Class I RR's in the US: - about 206,000 or 68% of them had Solid Bottoms; about 71,000 or 24% were Drop Bottom Gons where the load could be dumped to the Side; and the remaining 24,000 or 8% were Drop Bottom Gons where the load could be dumped between the rails. 62,000 of the 71,000 Side Dumping Gons were owned by the Western RR's where over 2/3's gons owned were side dumpers.


Although many box cars and reefers are lacking, there are quite
a few hundred physically different models available in HO, which
is not something you can say for hoppers or gondolas or flat cars.
And stock cars are missing for specific prototypes: D&RGW, C&NW,
come immediately to mind.
Regarding DRG&W, C&NW Stock Cars, it might be hard for a modeler of most other roads to justify having any of these stock cars on his line; thus, manufacturers can be reasonably reluctant to release kits or RTR versions of models of these stock cars because of lack of perceived market.

A better case for marketing can be made for specific hoppers, gons & flat cars appearing on a variety of railroads although there may be limits to their normal range of operations. Hoppers were generally tied to coal mines, and the majority of loads from any mine were owned by the road servicing that mine - there were exceptions and strays, but these were usually in the minority.

The utilization of general service flat cars paralleled that of boxcars. Flat Cars could carry a variety of loads which reduced empty car miles, and there was a severe shortage in the post-War period. Thus, almost any general service flat car could show up on any road with a load originated on still another road - providing, of course, that there was a demand for a flat car to load.

Gons' utilization and range of operation fell somewhere between Hoppers' and Boxcars's although about 7,000 of the total 205,000 solid bottom gons & 301,000 gons of all types were more than 60' long - thus, I am less than excited over the recent release of 65' mill gons.

Just like Boxcars, there were "generic" designs for hoppers, gons & general service flat cars which, if released in kit or RTR form, could make such releases "money makers." It would be best to ascertain what these generic designs were, and provide manufacturers with information as to what roads had them.


The greatest lack is for us poor 1960 era modelers, because the
mid 1950's is where the number of models drops off a cliff -- few
mechanical reefers, welded tank cars, flat cars, and piggyback
cars. You guys probably don't realize it but 45 years after the
introduction of 89 foot TOFC flats, there is only ONE accurate
version in HO -- from Walthers! I mean, here is a type of car
that came to virtually replace the box car, and modelers still
have to cut up, kitbash or scratchbuild these things, just like
the steam era guys were doing 20 years ago...
The problem with post-1960 modelers may be the lack of appreciation for the cars built in prior generations as part of their model freight car fleets. I don't have percentages, but the vast majority of cars on line in 1969 were built prior to 1960 just as a modeler of 1950 would look for cars built before 1940, 1930 and 1920 for his fleet.

A while back, there was a survey of models wanted on, I believe, the RPM-Model Forum. In it, anything built before 1970, was not to be considered. Now if you Tim want models of cars built in the 1960's, you should probably lobby not the STMFC, but groups and manufacturers devoted to promoting the modeling of later periods like the RPM-Model forum, or Modelers Choice.

Tim Gilbert


Tony Thompson
 

On Dec 25, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Peter J. McClosky wrote:
According to the Ulrich web site
http://www.ulrichmodels.com/Newsletter-Dec.pdf
Thanks for the link, Peter. This continues what has been true from Steve Gill for some time: he is producing the fine Ulrich HO tractors and trailers, much needed in their own right. He has said for years that the GS gons would come out "later," and that's still what he is saying.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Greg Martin
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

If you want to sell a billion flat cars, bring out a really well detailed
52'6" TOFC flat with two well done trailers, and then bring it out in 42 paint
schemes. I just hope when someone finally wakes up and smells this coffee
that the car they choose is an SP F-70-10, but most likely is that Walthers
will realize their AAR flat is a potential gold mine. Of course it has to be
better than the ancient Athearn model or it will fall flat.
Hobbyists will pay for high quality, Kadee proved that.<



Tim and all,

A good ( I say good not great, you have to take the time to make them great)
F30a is available from Bowser for the first batch of TTX cars and the
Walthers GSC car will work for UP cars, but can you see what is missing here... A
company to provide the aftermarket parts in styrene or Resin to complete the
project just like CANNON does for diesels. Someone needs to do the same for the
parts I need to 'fix" the F30a to a d with the hitches and rub rails and I
am willing to pay. But for heavens sakes don't take advantage or will be the
tooling scrap pile for your efforts. If Verlinden could do it for the Military
guys you would think there would be a profitable venture some forth in our
end of the hobby. Then comes the trailers although the trailers seem to be
ahead of the horse... 3^)

Greg Martin


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim Gilbert says:

Regarding DRG&W, C&NW Stock Cars, it might be hard for a modeler of most
other roads to justify having any of these stock cars on his line;
Man...what an interesting statement to consider. If Tim had merely said..."many" instead of most, it would be easy to reject...the C&NW part. Consider the number of RRs in the "midwest". C&EI, C&IM, CGW, Soo, Monon, MP, Milw, Q, Pennsy, B&O, C&O, NYC, IC, ATSF, Southern, MK&T on and on and on. A C&NW stock car could easily be found on these roads but are they the majority?

A better case for marketing can be made for specific hoppers, gons &
flat cars appearing on a variety of railroads although there may be
limits to their normal range of operations. Hoppers were generally tied
to coal mines, and the majority of loads from any mine were owned by the
road servicing that mine - there were exceptions and strays, but these
were usually in the minority.
Yes, but how about the other end....the destinations? Too many people in the past just figured that Appalachian coal went from the source to Norfolk or Sperry's Point or other seaport. We've since learned that much more went into the industrial "midwest" and to the Great Lake ports. The primary "source" RRs might be C&O, N&W, B&O, L&N, Pennsy, and WM with a few others as well. While some served the industrial areas, many did not...N&W, L&N, and WM coal moved on many other RRs to their destinations. Videos of NKP and B&O trains reveal many N&W hoppers. Solid trains of N&W hoppers can be found both in video and still photography moving coal north to the Great Lakes on Pennsy and NYC tracks. My point? If you model any RR in the "midwest" you need N&W, B&O and C&O hoppers.

Mike Brock


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Anyway, talk is cheap and what the manufacturers need is reasonable
input (not the usual "we really need Missabe Road box cars and me and
my five friends will buy a whole bunch) plus the prototype data,
drawings, and photos needed to produce the models. Providing it is
what I spend a lot of my time doing these days, thus helping to
insure that we all have a very happy new year.
My sense of where we are is the list of undone cars that can be both
physically correct (within our standards of reasonableness) and correctly
painted in 5 or more roadnames (the usual threshold) is, by taking into
account hints and rumors, dwindling away rather rapidly towards zero. If
not soon, then the year after soon. 8-)

If that is true then we're faced with a future of either (a) no new cars, or
(b) recycling existing tooling with paint variations, or (c) cars that are
correct for just a few roads, maybe even just one road, but painted for
many, as numbers are needed to amortize the tooling.

And it seems that Accurail is moving towards (c) -- that GN stock car for
instance.

If I may add to *that* list (instead of following the criteria that mfgrs
have used over the last 10 years), I would put:

* two western GS gondolas... at least one of which having inset sides at the
side sill and the other 46' long;

* a Harriman "style" stockcar;

* one or more single sheathed, low height boxcars, such as the C&NW 1921
standard;

* post WWI low height steel boxcar (a.k.a. NYC);

* A 1932 boxcar;

* A pre WWII design acid tank car;

And so on.

I doubt any of the above qualify under the 5 road names criteria, yet with
consideration to the engineering, none of the above can be dismissed out of
hand as "not particular representative of the national fleet".

Going down this path means lots of things for bozos to buy, one or two
correct models per suggestion for the rest of us, and a green light to the
better mfgr's to build to the historical spec but paint for the market.
Because if they don't, either the lesser mfgr's will OR all of us get stuck
with choices (a) or (b) above.

Dave Nelson


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert wrote

According to the April 1949 ORER, there were about 301,000 Gons listed
as owned by Class I RR's in the US: - about 206,000 or 68% of them had
Solid Bottoms; about 71,000 or 24% were Drop Bottom Gons where the load
could be dumped to the Side; and the remaining 24,000 or 8% were Drop
Bottom Gons where the load could be dumped between the rails. 62,000 of
the 71,000 Side Dumping Gons were owned by the Western RR's where over
2/3's gons owned were side dumpers.

Yes, Tim, that is correct. The GS gondolas were very numerous in the west,
and many thousands more were built in the 1950's. Was there a point to your
recitation? That kits should not be manufactured for western roads? I can
easily name a dozen models of eastern prototypes that stayed close to home
for the most part.


... manufacturers can be reasonably reluctant to release kits or RTR
versions of models of these stock cars because of lack of perceived market.

Yes!

This is the accepted conventional wisdom, and is applied universally except
when it is not applied, which is quite often -- That's why we have Pfaudler
milk cars (both steel and wood), Santa Fe and UP and PRR stock cars, PRR and
N&W hopper cars, an ART reefer which numbered a whopping 450, and so on.


A better case for marketing can be made for specific hoppers, gons &
flat cars appearing on a variety of railroads ...

You seem to be operating under the delusion that the hobby market cares
about prototypical operations. What the market goes for is often a mystery.
Lots of gaudy paint schemes really helps. Appeal to a large segment like
PRR modelers helps a lot too. There are many cars that travelled on almost
every railroad for 30-40 years but we'll probably never get models of them
(like the UTLX X-3's) because of the simple fact that most buyers are not
interested in the prototype.


If you want to sell a billion flat cars, bring out a really well detailed
52'6" TOFC flat with two well done trailers, and then bring it out in 42
paint schemes. I just hope when someone finally wakes up and smells this
coffee that the car they choose is an SP F-70-10, but most likely is that
Walthers will realize their AAR flat is a potential gold mine. Of course
it has to be better than the ancient Athearn model or it will fall flat.
Hobbyists will pay for high quality, Kadee proved that.


I am less than excited over the recent release of 65' mill gons.

Since my club models a large steel mill, I can't say I'm unhappy with it.
And big mill gons show up in photos carrying pipes, structural steel,
prefabricated stuff, bridge girders, etc -- so I think many hobbyists
will be very happy with them. Even R.H. has been known to model them.


It would be best to ascertain what these generic designs were, and
provide manufacturers with information as to what roads had them.

Have I been asleep the last 8 years, or isn't that exactly what we've
been doing? We don't just "provide" information -- We're in their faces
at trade shows, and prototype meets, and we've got allies at magazines
and publications. The AAR "alternate" standard was widely adopted -- by
eastern, southern, midwestern and western roads. That's why as Richard
points out, it's currently being worked on.* Hopefully it won't turn out
to be another PS2 2893, with several vendors doing the same car and at
the same time, ignoring equally numerous alternatives.

* after years of relentless lobbying


The problem with post-1960 modelers may be the lack of appreciation for
the cars built in prior generations as part of their model freight car
fleets.

???? Tim, why would the desire to have post-1959 models of cars which did
not exist in 1959 indicate a lack of appreciation for earlier cars? That's
like saying if Richard Hendrickson wants to model an F7 then that indicates
he lacks appreciation for the FT.

Sheesh.

Tim O'Connor


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 25, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Tim Gilbert says:

Regarding DRG&W, C&NW Stock Cars, it might be hard for a modeler of
most
other roads to justify having any of these stock cars on his line;
Man...what an interesting statement to consider. If Tim had merely
said..."many" instead of most, it would be easy to reject...the C&NW
part.
Consider the number of RRs in the "midwest". C&EI, C&IM, CGW, Soo,
Monon,
MP, Milw, Q, Pennsy, B&O, C&O, NYC, IC, ATSF, Southern, MK&T on and on
and
on. A C&NW stock car could easily be found on these roads but are they
the
majority?
Easterners don't "get it" about stock cars – how many there were, how
widespread and varied the livestock traffic was, and how widely the
stock cars of such major stock haulers as Santa Fe, MILW, C&NW, and
Burlington traveled off-line in interchange – in the same way that
westerners like me have some difficulty understanding those who are
begging for, say, models of N&W hoppers. It's not that most of us
don't need stock car models; the problem is that there were hardly any
"standard" stock cars that were used by a number of different RRs, the
notable exceptions being the Mather cars modeled by Life-Like and the
post-Harriman cars owned by the SP, UP, and their subsidiaries. A case
might be made for modeling the latter in styrene, but models of C&NW
stock cars would only be correct for the C&NW, etc., and barring
profound changes in the marketplace I can't imagine a mfr. of
injection-molded styrene models making the substantial investment in
tooling that would be required. That's why I wrote earlier that such
cars are a better bet in resin than styrene (and note that Westerfield
and Sunshine already offer a number of models for, e.g., MILW and MP
stock cars which will almost certainly never be offered in styrene).
FWIW, I have photos showing C&NW and D&RGW stock cars off-line in places as far away from home rails as Southern California, Southern
Arizona, and Western Washington.

Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote

FWIW, I have photos showing C&NW and D&RGW stock cars off-line in
places as far away from home rails as Southern California, Southern
Arizona, and Western Washington.
Add CStPM&O at Union Furnace, PA in 1951, and a C&NW at Binghamton NY
in 1959. Also D&RGW, Santa Fe, NP and GN in Iowa. GN in Denver, usw.

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

I don't disagree with that choice Greg, but I usually don't ask
for plastic versions of cars that are already available in very
high quality resin, especially if I only want 1 or 2. I'd like to
see more NYC rebuilds (esp. postwar) in resin...

Tim O.

I would rather see the NYC 40-foot boxcar that we have beat to death on
this list... I am going to make sure it gets done... and Not in Resin...
Greg Martin


Greg Martin
 

Brian writes:

"Greg, you are aware Stan R does have parts to convert the F30a to F30d?

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY'


Yes, absolutely and the correct decals as well for both TTX and the PRR
F30a. My point is that there is a whole area here of projects that a styrene or
resin product in conjunction with a styrene (or resin kit) soul make a project
entirely possible and open more doors for those of us who aren't afraid to
open a box of part and build a kit.

Greg Martin
Salem, OR (additional information added for compliance purposes) 3^)


Ron Morse <ronstrainshop@...>
 

I'll 2nd that.......in O scale.
Ron Morse
NYC/C&O O scale in Springfield,MO



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@g...> wrote:

Mike and list,

I know what mine is in N scale - a 36 foot ventilated boxcar,
preferably an
ACL 17000-series. These cars were used by all the roads on the
South and
were seen all over the Eastern half of the USA.

It's the "screen door" that makes it a bear to try to scratchbuild.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast
-------------------------------------------------

Mike Brock writes:


Jeff English notes about the number of unproduced models of frt
cars [ in
HO scale ]:

My point is only that there's plenty more to be produced and we're
not out of the woods yet.

Given that, what car do you now believe should be on the Most
Wanted List?
Let's add that the car should be commonly found on at least 5
major Class I
RRs. We might even want two categories...one for injection
molding in which
large numbers of the prototype are required...and two for a resin
car in
which such large numbers would not be necessary.

My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point
of view:

The AAR Alternatre Standard 34 ft offset side hopper car.

Mike Brock....running for cover


Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Greg, you are aware Stan R does have parts to convert the F30a to F30d?

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

----- Original Message -----
From: <tgregmrtn@aol.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Unproduced frt cars



Tim O'Connor writes:

If you want to sell a billion flat cars, bring out a really well
detailed
52'6" TOFC flat with two well done trailers, and then bring it out in 42
paint
schemes. I just hope when someone finally wakes up and smells this coffee
that the car they choose is an SP F-70-10, but most likely is that
Walthers
will realize their AAR flat is a potential gold mine. Of course it has to
be
better than the ancient Athearn model or it will fall flat.
Hobbyists will pay for high quality, Kadee proved that.<



Tim and all,

A good ( I say good not great, you have to take the time to make them
great)
F30a is available from Bowser for the first batch of TTX cars and the
Walthers GSC car will work for UP cars, but can you see what is missing
here... A
company to provide the aftermarket parts in styrene or Resin to complete
the
project just like CANNON does for diesels. Someone needs to do the same
for the
parts I need to 'fix" the F30a to a d with the hitches and rub rails and
I
am willing to pay. But for heavens sakes don't take advantage or will be
the
tooling scrap pile for your efforts. If Verlinden could do it for the
Military
guys you would think there would be a profitable venture some forth in
our
end of the hobby. Then comes the trailers although the trailers seem to
be
ahead of the horse... 3^)

Greg Martin








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