Covered Hoppers


Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/26/2006 5:28:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
thompson@signaturepress.com writes:

I'd say "no" unless something like locomotive sand was also produced.
Cinders certainly don't need a "lid."

---> No, I can't see volcanic cinders being used for sand. Could it have
been roofing granule's? I know that it would not have been for ballast, as that
would have been gon's and hoppers, it would have to been something else that
would use volcanic cinders, perhaps the finer particles that could not have
been shipped in hoppers or gons. I guess that I will need to scratch those cars
off my list. Thanks again!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/26/2006 8:38:06 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
dsmith@davinci-center.org writes:

I could suggest that small lapilli could easily have been transported in
covered hoppers, but that would be speculating in the absence of data, and we
wouldn't want to do that, would we.

---> Well being that there is no known data...let's speculate! <G> Two
questions, first and foremost, is this something that would have be actively
shipped in the early 1950's? If so, what would it have been used for? Thanks
David. I appreciate the assistance!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brian R. Termunde wrote:
Now on to more serious business. One of the industries on my 1952 era Grand Canyon District will be a Gravel Pit (at Pitt, Ariz.). While I will need hoppers, and gons, it seems to me that I read someplace about the use of covered hoppers. Now I cannot seem to find the post where I had read it. I'm not sure if it was on this list, or another. But would there have been a use for covered hoppers or not? BTW, the cinders mined were volcanic, if that makes a difference. TIA!
I'd say "no" unless something like locomotive sand was also produced. Cinders certainly don't need a "lid."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


ljack70117@...
 

Question: Why would locomotive sand need a covered car? The Un Pac and John Santa Fe in Kansas received the sand in gondolas. They had a sand house where it was dried and then put in to the sand tower.

On Jan 26, 2006, at 7:24 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Brian R. Termunde wrote:
Now on to more serious business. One of the industries on my 1952 era
Grand Canyon District will be a Gravel Pit (at Pitt, Ariz.). While I
will need hoppers, and gons, it seems to me that I read someplace
about the use of covered hoppers. Now I cannot seem to find the post
where I had read it. I'm not sure if it was on this list, or another.
But would there have been a use for covered hoppers or not? BTW, the
cinders mined were volcanic, if that makes a difference. TIA!
I'd say "no" unless something like locomotive sand was also
produced. Cinders certainly don't need a "lid."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




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Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry Jackman, ever inquisitive, wrote:
Question: Why would locomotive sand need a covered car? The Un Pac
and John Santa Fe in Kansas received the sand in gondolas. They had a
sand house where it was dried and then put in to the sand tower.
Sure. But ask any modern railroad: it's delivered dry in CH cars so there does not have to be a sand house. I think the disappearance of sand houses really began in the early diesel era. Certainly many SP ones were torn down by 1960.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, GCRDS@a... wrote:



In a message dated 1/26/2006 5:28:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
thompson@s... writes:

I'd say "no" unless something like locomotive sand was also
produced.
Cinders certainly don't need a "lid."

---> No, I can't see volcanic cinders being used for sand. Could
it have
been roofing granule's? I know that it would not have been for
ballast, as that
would have been gon's and hoppers, it would have to been something
else that
would use volcanic cinders, perhaps the finer particles that could
not have
been shipped in hoppers or gons. ...
COVERED hoppers are Class LO; ROOFED hoppers are Class HTR in
the late 1940's time period. The primary difference between the two
is in the construction of the bottom doors. Class HTR has ordinary
hopper drop doors which keep the lading somewhat dry, while Class LO
cars have water-tight sliding doors which keep the lading much
drier. They both have similar roof hatches to keep out water, etc.

Some types of aggregates are shipped in Class HTR cars to "keep
most of the water out." In Austin, Texas in the 1970's, a regular
carload of special aggregate from Arkansas was unloaded from HTR
cars weekly, but I never saw it carried in LO cars. For some
unknown reason, it had to be sort of dry. I think it was used for
marble flooring, but am not sure. The LO cars were usually used for
cement and lime in the late steam era. If your pit mines this type
of aggregate, you could spot some HTR cars there.

Locomotive sand was and is carried in cars of convenience,
either LO or HTR - whatever is in good shape and no longer needed
for revenue service. It doesn't have to be THAT dry. In the steam
era when labor was cheap, one man was assigned to operate the
sandhouse. Gondolas of wet sand were shoveled into a drier -
sometimes just a heated plate - then strained and elevated for loco
use. Later, that job was eliminated by shipping dry sand in LO or
HTR cars which kept out moisture and trash - imagine how a family of
cats in a gondola could cause a loco sand pipe to plug up! Ha!

A.T. Kott


David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

Finally, we're in my turf!

Basalt volcanoes of the sort found in the volcanic fields around the
Grand Canyon would have produced tephra (TEFF-rah, the generic term for
all of the particulate materials that come out of volcanoes from dust to
boulders) that was approximately 2mm in diameter and up. Anything from
2-64 mm is called lapilli (lah-PILL-ee), anything bigger than 64 mm is a
block (or a bomb, if streamlined, due to being ejected when molten).
Lapilli, blocks, and bomb with numerous coarse bubbles are common in
these settings and are called scoria (SCORE-ee-ah or skoh-REE-ah) or
even less technically, cinders, hence the term cinder cone fro a volcano
with a cone shape made up of tephra. A small amount of ash might have
been produced as well, but is pretty uncommon in basaltic cones. Each
cone is different, so it is hard to generalize, but an appreciable
amount of the tephra could have been sand-sized on some cones. If
addition, if they were vesicular (veh-SICK-you-lahr, containing gas
bubbles), they would be less dense than "normal" sand and could
definitely be blown about.

Do not rely on the grain size of railroad "cinders" to represent the
grain size of volcanic "cinders."

I could suggest that small lapilli could easily have been transported in
covered hoppers, but that would be speculating in the absence of data,
and we wouldn't want to do that, would we.

Dave Smith, whose Ph.D. is in geology (and if we ever start a list on
railroad scenery, those of you who don't actually study the rocks in the
backgrounds of your pictures while you are busy counting ribs on box car
doors are in big trouble),

David L. Smith, Ph.D.
Director of Professional Development
Da Vinci Discovery Center, Allentown, PA
http://www.davinci-center.org <http://www.davinci-center.org/>

"Who will pick up where Leonardo left off?"

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
GCRDS@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:36 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Covered Hoppers




In a message dated 1/26/2006 5:28:10 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
thompson@signaturepress.com writes:

I'd say "no" unless something like locomotive sand was also produced.
Cinders certainly don't need a "lid."

---> No, I can't see volcanic cinders being used for sand. Could it have

been roofing granule's? I know that it would not have been for ballast,
as that
would have been gon's and hoppers, it would have to been something else
that
would use volcanic cinders, perhaps the finer particles that could not
have
been shipped in hoppers or gons. I guess that I will need to scratch
those cars
off my list. Thanks again!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District









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Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Guys,

Your mention of volcanic material got me thinking about Boraxo products, and coarse sand paper. Are any listers familiar with the manufacture of said items; and can provide enlightenment? Thinking out loud.

Fred Freitas

GCRDS@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/26/2006 8:38:06 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
dsmith@davinci-center.org writes:

I could suggest that small lapilli could easily have been transported in
covered hoppers, but that would be speculating in the absence of data, and we
wouldn't want to do that, would we.

---> Well being that there is no known data...let's speculate! <G> Two
questions, first and foremost, is this something that would have be actively
shipped in the early 1950's? If so, what would it have been used for? Thanks
David. I appreciate the assistance!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District








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Tim O'Connor
 

Sand paper is part of the larger abrasives industry. There are a couple of
large manufacturers in the area of Massachusetts I live in. The Norton Co is
one of them, probably the largest. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide) travel in
bulk covered hoppers or bagged in box cars.

Boraxo is an unrelated mineral product, Borax... it travels in covered hoppers
or bagged in box cars too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@yahoo.com>
Your mention of volcanic material got me thinking about Boraxo
products, and coarse sand paper. Are any listers familiar with the manufacture
of said items; and can provide enlightenment? Thinking out loud.


David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

There is information on the RPI web site about Barton Mines - one of the
principal domestic producers of garnet for abrasives - in North Creek
NY. The garnet was shipped on D&H, apparently in box cars, to end
users.

Borax is derived from minerals formed by evaporation and mined out of
some western dry lake beds with the right chemistry (high sodium and
boron). I could tell you more about the mineralogy, but that doesn't
have anything to do with getting it into a... freight car, as Mike would
probably remind us ;-)

Dave Smith




Guys,

Your mention of volcanic material got me thinking about
Boraxo products, and coarse sand paper. Are any listers familiar with
the manufacture of said items; and can provide enlightenment? Thinking
out loud.

Fred Freitas

GCRDS@aol.com wrote: