Denny, do you buy any particular brand of better quality drill bits or
have any particular supplier who gives a good compromise of quality &
cost?

Ed

Hansen drill bits, made in USA and available at most
machine shop supply stores. About as high quality as
you can find while still economical.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- ed_mines <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Denny, do you buy any particular brand of better quality drill bits or
have any particular supplier who gives a good compromise of quality &
cost?

The first rule is to buy alloy steel, not carbon steel, bits. I don't care who makes them, no carbon steel bit can equal the wear resistance and breaking resistance of alloy steel. The latter, of course, does cost more.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

The first rule is to buy alloy steel, not carbon steel, bits.

They usually have on the shank HSS for high speed steel, I've never seen high carbon Hansens but then I buy through a machinist supply place. No reason nowadays for buyng carbon steel drill bits.

Jim Eckman

Jim Eckman wrote:

They usually have on the shank HSS for high speed steel, I've never seen
high carbon Hansens but then I buy through a machinist supply place. No
reason nowadays for buyng carbon steel drill bits.

This is certainly true about the "HSS" but it's not easily found on a #80 drill <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

This is certainly true about the "HSS" but it's not easily found on a #80 drill <g>.

Yes, not easily seen on #60s either, I have to use the magnifier. But I never seen any smaller than this, it would have to be a laser at that point, but its possible some sick manufacturer does this.

Jim

On Jan 31, 2006, at 9:53 AM, James Eckman wrote:

Yes, not easily seen on #60s either, I have to use the magnifier. But I
never seen any smaller than this, it would have to be a laser at that
point, but its possible some sick manufacturer does this.

Jim

Please tell me if a manufacture stamps HSS on his smaller than 60 drill bits, why doest he have to be a SICK manufacture? They way I am reading your use of SICK, is he is mentally sick. I have some HHS smaller than 60 bits that have this on them and also their size.
Any way just wondering. 8>)
Have you heard about the German machinist that made the smallest bit that could be made and the Swiss machinist drill a hole through it. Big grin.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

That might be an apocryphal story; I had heard it applied to the US in the
late 1800's, wanting to show the Germans our technical prowess, sent a
sample of our finest steel wire, and the Germans drilled a hole thru it and
sent it back.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

I would second Andy Carlson's good comments about Hansen Drills. Pretty fine. Ditto Tony's excellent advice about avoiding carbon steel drills (whose half life is commonly less than one project).

However, the situation is not always in our favor inasmuch as seemingly most serious industrial suppliers of good drills will sell drills to you only in sets of #61-80. In this regard, although you can start out with a fine set, but pretty soon because of inevitable breakage and dulling of commonly used bits, replacements are required. In this regard, I commonly fall back on Walthers and Masco at the LHS.

Now, I would be embarrassed to learn that these are indeed made of carbon steel, and in addition are made by eye and by hand in a remote village in Elbonia; but so far I have found them to be accurate and they seem to wear well.

Of the larger numbered drills (#1-60), with a few exceptions (breakage :-[ ), I am using the very same set of fine alloy ("high speed steel") drills that I purchased 45 years ago. The secret is keeping them sharp, and in this regard I have had the entire group re-sharpened probably at least three times. Resharpening a whole group is economical, while sharpening only a few is not (the expense is in the setting-up, the procedure of which is the same in either instance). The average cost of sharpening is often quoted to about 15% of the cost of a new premium drill.


Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

My better drill bits just have "HS" on their shanks allowing the designation to be placed on
smaller sizes. (-: I'm curious, if a modeler just uses them to drill holes in soft plastic toy
train freight car models at low rpm (to avoid melting the plastic) with a precision drill
press, why pay extra for high-speed steel drill bits? It's not like everyone is drilling holes
down into the car's steel weights. I also have some larger carbide tipped drills but I
wouldn't use them just to drill brass. No need.

Pat Wider

Pat Wider wrote:

I'm curious, if a modeler just uses them to drill holes in soft
plastic toy
train freight car models at low rpm (to avoid melting the plastic)
with a precision drill
press, why pay extra for high-speed steel drill bits? It's not like
everyone is drilling holes
down into the car's steel weights.  I also have some larger carbide
tipped drills but I
wouldn't use them just to drill brass. No need.

True about plastic, but some of us actually drill brass and stuff,
Pat. The carbon steel dulls a lot faster, whatever it's being drilled
into; softens far easier if overheated (and we've all done it); and is
much more brittle, thus a slight bending by the inattentive or
unskillful drill person is much more likely to break it.
Whatever the reason, I agree with Denny Anspach's estimate of the
carbon steel bit half-life: something less than one project. <vbg>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...> wrote:

Pat Wider wrote:

I'm curious, if a modeler just uses them to drill holes in soft
plastic toy
train freight car models at low rpm (to avoid melting the plastic)
with a precision drill
press, why pay extra for high-speed steel drill bits? It's not like
everyone is drilling holes
down into the car's steel weights.  I also have some larger carbide
tipped drills but I
wouldn't use them just to drill brass. No need.

True about plastic, but some of us actually drill brass and stuff,
Pat. The carbon steel dulls a lot faster, whatever it's being drilled
into; softens far easier if overheated (and we've all done it); and is
much more brittle, thus a slight bending by the inattentive or
unskillful drill person is much more likely to break it.
Whatever the reason, I agree with Denny Anspach's estimate of the
carbon steel bit half-life: something less than one project. <vbg>

All true and all dependent upon the material being drilled, whether the drill bit is dry or
has cooling fluid passing over it, the feed rate or pressure being applied, and the drilling
speed being used. Cranking a small carbon steel drill bit with a shaking hand in a pin vise
is just asking for trouble. DUH! I just thought there should be more discussion lest
someone pay extra for something that they didn't need. Carbon steel drill bits do have
their uses. Limited? Perhaps.

Pat Wider

On Feb 1, 2006, at 2:56 AM, Patrick Wider wrote:

All true and all dependent upon the material being drilled, whether the drill bit is dry or
has cooling fluid passing over it, the feed rate or pressure being applied, and the drilling
speed being used. Cranking a small carbon steel drill bit with a shaking hand in a pin vise
is just asking for trouble. DUH! I just thought there should be more discussion lest
someone pay extra for something that they didn't need. Carbon steel drill bits do have
their uses. Limited? Perhaps.

Pat Wider

You are right on Carbon Steel bits. They would not make them if some body did not have a use for them.
But I have written about speed of a bit in plastic before. Speed is not the reason your plastic melts. Time is the reason. You advance your drill to slowly and stay in the hole to long. Get in and get out as fast as you can. It is the friction of the bit on the plastic that does the melting. If you wish use a drop of water to cool. I do not need it myself. Also a slow running bit will wobble and make your hole over size.
Oh well another day in the machine shop.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

On Feb 1, 2006, at 7:01 AM, ljack70117@... wrote:

You are right on Carbon Steel bits. They would not make them if some
body did not have a use for them.
But I have written about speed of a bit in plastic before. Speed is
not the reason your plastic melts. Time is the reason. You advance
your drill to slowly and stay in the hole to long. Get in and get out
as fast as you can. It is the friction of the bit on the plastic that
does the melting. If you wish use a drop of water to cool. I do not
need it myself. Also a slow running bit will wobble and make your
hole over size.
Oh well another day in the machine shop.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

I forgot to mention 5 X the drill diameter is a deep hole and care needs to be taken when drilling that deep or deeper.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:

I would second Andy Carlson's good comments about Hansen Drills.
Pretty fine. Ditto Tony's excellent advice about avoiding carbon
steel drills (whose half life is commonly less than one project).

However, the situation is not always in our favor inasmuch as
seemingly most serious industrial suppliers of good drills will sell
drills to you only in sets of #61-80. In this regard, although you
can start out with a fine set, but pretty soon because of inevitable
breakage and dulling of commonly used bits, replacements are
required. In this regard, I commonly fall back on Walthers and Masco
at the LHS.

Now, I would be embarrassed to learn that these are indeed made of
carbon steel, and in addition are made by eye and by hand in a remote
village in Elbonia; but so far I have found them to be accurate and
they seem to wear well.

Of the larger numbered drills (#1-60), with a few exceptions
(breakage :-[ ), I am using the very same set of fine alloy ("high
speed steel") drills that I purchased 45 years ago. The secret is
keeping them sharp, and in this regard I have had the entire group
re-sharpened probably at least three times. Resharpening a whole
group is economical, while sharpening only a few is not (the expense
is in the setting-up, the procedure of which is the same in either
instance). The average cost of sharpening is often quoted to about
15% of the cost of a new premium drill.


Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Hi, One industrial supplier who does sell individual drills is
Production Tool Supply of Detroit, Mich. <www.pts-tools.com>
PTS has drills down to #97 (.0059"). In sizes down to #80 they have
four levels of drills. They are: Precision Twist Drill, Morse Cutting
Tools, US Made (generic manufacturer) and Imports. The last time I
bought small drills I bought Precision Brand #80's(the most expensive
of the four @$1.85/drill). I was amazed at the difference in
quality over what I'd bought before. They are excellent! They are
sharp but not brittle. For at least the very small sizes I heartly
recomend the Precision Brand and PTS as a source of good individual
drills.

One other comment about drilling. I have two #61 to #80 drill sets.
One is for plastic while the other is for metal. The ones used only in
plastic stay sharp almost indefinitely. When I break or lose sharpness
of one of the drills in the metal set I replace it with the equivalent
size from the plastic set and put the new drill in the plastic set. At
least this way I always have sharp drills for plastic. Regards, Don
Smith

Larry Jackman wrote:

You are right on Carbon Steel bits. They would not make them if some
body did not have a use for them.

I agree with Larry's comments on drilling speed. But the statement above is silly. Would you agree, Larry, that they would not make those crappy cheap Chinese tools for 99 cents if somebody did not have a use for them? and would any such use match with the word "quality" in this thread's subject line?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Feb 1, 2006, at 12:22 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Larry Jackman wrote:

You are right on Carbon Steel bits. They would not make them if some
body did not have a use for them.

I agree with Larry's comments on drilling speed. But the statement
above is silly. Would you agree, Larry, that they would not make those
crappy cheap Chinese tools for 99 cents if somebody did not have a use
for them? and would any such use match with the word "quality" in this
thread's subject line?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

No I do not think it is silly. You can buy US of A made carbon steel bits. There are some tools made on speculation but are sold through tool companies to shops manufactures that study the cost use the carbon steel bits because it is more cost efficient. All the shops i work in had carbon steel, HSS and carbide in stock and used as needed.
When I worked in Dexter Wilson we had one Item that was plastic filled with class. A carbide bit would drill 3 holes at most. Then you needed a new one. I solved this problem by reworking the injection mold and no need to drill any more.
So if there is no need for it, they will not make it. They do not make Selectic typewriters any more do they.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

Thanks to snopes.com - after explaining the possible reasons for the
German-American, American-American, and American-Japanese versions of
this that date to WWII and even more recently, they write:

"The story appears in Pliny's Natural History as an anecdote involving
the two renowned artists circa 300 B.C., Apelles and Protogenes. Not
finding Protogenes at home, Apelles drew a thin, perfect line across a
canvas as his way of informing the absent painter who had called. Upon
seeing it, Protogenes drew a still finer line in a different color
immediately on top of the one left by Apelles. Apelles then ended all
dispute by drawing yet a third fine line (in yet another color) between
the two lines already on the canvas.

Was this a true rendition of an actual event? Pliny claims the canvas
(which had supposedly been exhibited as a marvel) was destroyed in a
fire at Caesar's palace on the Palatine, so no evidence survives. We
should also note that Pliny (AD 23-AD 79) was writing about an event
that, if it occurred at all, would have taken place 3.5 centuries before
he attempted to set down an account of it.

In one way, the "drilled wire" story is a typical "guy tale" in which
one smart fella competes with another in a peacock's show of who has the
brightest feathers. In that sense, it's timeless."

Dave Smith




That might be an apocryphal story; I had heard it applied to the US in
the
late 1800's, wanting to show the Germans our technical prowess, sent a
sample of our finest steel wire, and the Germans drilled a hole thru it
and
sent it back.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., ljack70117@... wrote:

On Feb 1, 2006, at 7:01 AM, ljack70117@... wrote:

You are right on Carbon Steel bits. They would not make them if some
body did not have a use for them. <snip>

I know I'm a little (two months) late to this discussion but thought
I'd add that Small Parts has HSS drills down to #97 (that's right,
ninety seven!) and cobalt drills for those who regularly drill
titanium down to #80. The HSS #80 was $1.80 each in their catalog
#22, which is the latest I have and about three years old.

Walter M. Clark (who has bought from Small Parts and was quite
impressed by the courtesy of their phone reps, even for my nickel and
dime orders)
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

These are probably jobber drills. Do they have any stub drills?
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...