Folks,

The PRR Projects group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) will be
starting our H21 project on February 14. With a wide range of models of
the H21 available we expect participants from several scales. Included in
the project will be improving the Bowser N and HO Scale models as well as
Westerfield resin kits. We may have some resin S-Scale cars being built
too! Almost anyone can use at least one H21a on their layout, whether
they're an SPF or not! (any of these seen going over Sherman Hill??)

In the intervening 2 weeks, we'll also be taking nominations and deciding
what project to do after the H21, so if you want your voice heard, now's
the time.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Bruce Smith wrote:

The PRR Projects group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/%29> will be
starting our H21 project on February 14. With a wide range of models of
the H21 available we expect participants from several scales. Included in
the project will be improving the Bowser N and HO Scale models as well as
Westerfield resin kits. We may have some resin S-Scale cars being built
too! Almost anyone can use at least one H21a on their layout, whether
they're an SPF or not! (any of these seen going over Sherman Hill??)

There were no H21's reported by UP Conductor Fraley in either his Fall 1947 or Spring 1949 Wheel Reports. Aberration? What was so special about coal mined on the Pennsy which would appeal to coal users west of the Rockies in view of the high transportation costs?

Tim Gilbert

On Feb 1, 2006, at 8:22 AM, Tim Gilbert wrote:

There were no H21's reported by UP Conductor Fraley in either his Fall
1947 or Spring 1949 Wheel Reports. Aberration? What was so special about
coal mined on the Pennsy which would appeal to coal users west of the
Rockies in view of the high transportation costs?

Not necessarily anything... given the huge size of the fleet and the fact that cars DID go off-line, there is certainly the chance that an H21 would stray in much the same manner as say an N&W hopper... and end up loaded with company coal headed over Sherman Hill. Since we have been down this road before, I would also remind you that individual mines did produce grades of coal that could be highly sought after for industrial processes and there is the _potential_ that coal on the Pennsy might indeed be desired by a customer on the UP.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Bruce,

Item one----The Railroad according to Brock;
"Any H21a seen on Sherman Hill was built by Pacific Car & Foundry, and shipped new, eastbound over the hill."

Next project-------MofW project car of majority choice

Fred Freitas

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Folks,

The PRR Projects group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) will be
starting our H21 project on February 14. With a wide range of models of
the H21 available we expect participants from several scales. Included in
the project will be improving the Bowser N and HO Scale models as well as
Westerfield resin kits. We may have some resin S-Scale cars being built
too! Almost anyone can use at least one H21a on their layout, whether
they're an SPF or not! (any of these seen going over Sherman Hill??)

In the intervening 2 weeks, we'll also be taking nominations and deciding
what project to do after the H21, so if you want your voice heard, now's
the time.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL





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Bruce Smith wrote:

On Feb 1, 2006, at 8:22 AM, Tim Gilbert wrote:

There were no H21's reported by UP Conductor Fraley in either his Fall
1947 or Spring 1949 Wheel Reports. Aberration? What was so special about
coal mined on the Pennsy which would appeal to coal users west of the
Rockies in view of the high transportation costs?

Not necessarily anything... given the huge size of the fleet and the fact that cars DID go off-line, there is certainly the chance that an H21 would stray in much the same manner as say an N&W hopper... and end up loaded with company coal headed over Sherman Hill.

I doubt that a N&W Hopper would "stray" westbound over Sherman Hill. Rather it was "tethered to" mines on the N&W because of Car Service Rule C-411 requiring empty hoppers of the N&W, VGN, C&O and L&N to be returned home directly.

An H21 would be a better candidate "to stray" because of numbers and lack of a rule than an N&W hopper - a "stray" being defined here as a hopper loaded on a foreign road destined to be terminated on the same or different foreign road which indicated that whatever "tether" there was to home road mines had been broken. It is just that neither of the two UP Wheel Reports reported any H21 "strays." Neither did two UP Conductor 1941 and 1942 Wheel Reports between Green River WY and Montpelier ID include any H21's.

Since we have been down this road before, I would also remind you that individual mines did produce grades of coal that could be highly sought after for industrial processes and there is the _potential_ that coal on the Pennsy might indeed be desired by a customer on the UP.

That might be the case as a PRR Gla Class Twin Hopper #250921 was reported in carrying "ingots" westbound from Laramie to Rawlins on November 25, 1947 - the only PRR hopper Fraley reported in his Fall 1947 and Spring 1949 Reports. He may have entered the incorrect car number though - #350921 was a Gs gon; #750921 a G22a gon. There were a lot of Pennsy gons reported in both Wheel Reports.

Tim Gilbert

Tim,

Thanks to the work you did on the Monon Query conductor logs I can
offer a midwest perspective on how prevalent these cars were. I was
surprised that half of the 28 HTs recorded off the log so far were PRR
cars: 10 H21s and 4 H25s! About half of these were cars loaded at
online mines. As an aside, 10% of the HMs that are recorded so far
off of this log are GLa s. This on a road clogged with SOU and LN
twins. Given that the number of H21s was several times the entire
roster of the Monon, I should not have been surprised. I am easily
surprised.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide
Chicago

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim,

Thanks to the work you did on the Monon Query conductor logs I can
offer a midwest perspective on how prevalent these cars were. I was
surprised that half of the 28 HTs recorded off the log so far were PRR
cars: 10 H21s and 4 H25s! About half of these were cars loaded at
online mines. As an aside, 10% of the HMs that are recorded so far
off of this log are GLa s. This on a road clogged with SOU and LN
twins. Given that the number of H21s was several times the entire
roster of the Monon, I should not have been surprised. I am easily
surprised.

Mike,

Did the Pennsy serve any mines in southern Indiana? I don't think they did in Illinois, but I could be wrong. Still, Indiana is a thousand miles closer to PRR's coal belt than Sherman Hill. Both those PRR hoppers "tethered" and those that had "strayed" should be much higher in Indiana than across the Rockies.

Tim Gilbert

On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Tim Gilbert wrote:

I doubt that a N&W Hopper would "stray" westbound over Sherman Hill.
Rather it was "tethered to" mines on the N&W because of Car Service Rule
C-411 requiring empty hoppers of the N&W, VGN, C&O and L&N to be
returned home directly.

I like the way you guys are always referring to the car service rules as if they were chiseled in stone. They really meant nothing if you needed a car. On the RRs I worked for if we needed that empty that was moving home we grabbed it and it went where ever it was loaded to. Even the other direction. So to say a N&W hopper would never go west loaded is pure speculation on your part as the Men in the field did what was needed to keep things moving.
I wonder how many conductors were working that part of the UPRR.? Maybe 50 plus the extra board? How many trains were moving a day? 25 each way? So you have one book out of 50 which would 1/50 of cars moved. Of course this does not mean one did go over but you and I do not know and we probably never will know.
May I ask if this conductor recorded his dead head moves in his book? All of then I knew in Kansas did so.
Any way the next time I let a genie out of a bottle I will use one of my wishes for a N&W hopper over Sherman Hill. Big grin.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

Tim,

I'm not familiar enough with the PRR in that area to know. According
to a map I have, the Van line to Vincennes is only 15 miles south of
the Monon mines at Midland IN., so it is likely there were mines that
the PRR served. In case I wasn't clear (a persistant issue!) the
"online" I was referring to was for the Monon on their Midland branch.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide
Chicago

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim,

Thanks to the work you did on the Monon Query conductor logs I can
offer a midwest perspective on how prevalent these cars were. I was
surprised that half of the 28 HTs recorded off the log so far were PRR
cars: 10 H21s and 4 H25s! About half of these were cars loaded at
online mines. As an aside, 10% of the HMs that are recorded so far
off of this log are GLa s. This on a road clogged with SOU and LN
twins. Given that the number of H21s was several times the entire
roster of the Monon, I should not have been surprised. I am easily
surprised.

Mike,

Did the Pennsy serve any mines in southern Indiana? I don't think they
did in Illinois, but I could be wrong. Still, Indiana is a thousand
miles closer to PRR's coal belt than Sherman Hill. Both those PRR
hoppers "tethered" and those that had "strayed" should be much

higher in

Indiana than across the Rockies.

Tim Gilbert

[snip]

There were no H21's reported by UP Conductor Fraley in either his Fall
1947 or Spring 1949 Wheel Reports. Aberration? What was so special
about
coal mined on the Pennsy which would appeal to coal users west of the
Rockies in view of the high transportation costs?

Not necessarily anything... given the huge size of the fleet and the
fact that cars DID go off-line, there is certainly the chance that an
H21 would stray in much the same manner as say an N&W hopper... and
end up loaded with company coal headed over Sherman Hill. Since we
have been down this road before, I would also remind you that
individual mines did produce grades of coal that could be highly
sought after for industrial processes and there is the _potential_
that coal on the Pennsy might indeed be desired by a customer on the UP.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

Page 52 of Gene Deimling's Southern Pacific Steam Switchers of the
Pacific Lines shows SP 0-6-0 1293 switching DT&I hopper 1437. The
location given is Tracy, CA; the date given is 1948.

Rod Miller

Rod Miller wrote:

<http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/%7Esmithbf/>

Page 52 of Gene Deimling's Southern Pacific Steam Switchers of the
Pacific Lines shows SP 0-6-0 1293 switching DT&I hopper 1437. The
location given is Tracy, CA; the date given is 1948.

Rod,

Would you consider this 1948 sighting of DT&I Hopper #1437 in Tracy CA
to be "on a tether," or a "stray" using the criteria I have provided?

Tim Gilbert