molasses


Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Last night the TV show 'Dirty Jobs' guy spent part of the show in a feed mill. I have a feed mill on my layout and did some research on it. One ingredient I may have missed is molasses. The temp at the mill during filming was about zero yet the stuff seemed to still flow fine.

We had a sugar beet processing plant north of town on the CGW. The M&StL (my RR) would interchange beets directly with the CGW, but all plant products were interchanged through the MC&CL trolley RR on the south side of town.

My question is: If my feed mill were to order a car of molasses from the sugar plant is there any special type of tank car this would have been shipped in? Anyone have any examples of tank cars hauling molasses.

Car routing: The CGW would have taken the loaded tank car 3 to 4 miles SW to the MC&CL transfer at Clear Lake jct. The trolley would have pushed the car 2 to 3 miles east to the M&StL interchange, then the M&StL would have to shove the car a couple miles north to the feed mill. Bet the fantasy operating bunch couldn't come up with anything that unique!

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hi Clark,

The July 1992 "Model Railroader," page 100, included a drawing of an AC&F
Type 27 tank car lettered for blackstrap molasses service, GATX 7801 leased
to Harry L. Laws & Co. I'm familiar with the Laws molasses refinery because
it was still in operation on the New Orleans riverfront when I was in high
school and college, and the wind ocassionally carried its sickly sweet odor
over the uptown university area.

So long,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-11142


Tim O'Connor
 

Clark Propst wrote

... is there any special type of tank car [molasses] would
have been shipped in? Anyone have any examples of tank cars
hauling molasses?
Ordinary ICC 103 tank cars could be used for molasses. Usually
they would have heater pipes installed to warm the molasses to
unload it. The Southern Pacific had a number of tank cars in
this service, marked with a large "S" on the dome for "sugar".
The cars were originally built for fuel oil service and most
of them were used for fuel anyway regardless of the "S".

I think Intermountain and Proto 2000 both did corn syrup paint
schemes on their Type 21 & 27 (respectively) tank cars. Syrup
is about the same viscosity as molasses.

Molasses also could be produced from wood fibers. There was an
article some years ago about the Superwood plant in Superior WI
that produced it as a byproduct. (Not for human consumption.)
See RMJ Feb 1990.

Tim O'Connor


Bruce Smith
 

On Feb 1, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Andy Sperandeo wrote:

Hi Clark,

The July 1992 "Model Railroader," page 100, included a drawing of an AC&F
Type 27 tank car lettered for blackstrap molasses service, GATX 7801 leased
to Harry L. Laws & Co. I'm familiar with the Laws molasses refinery because
it was still in operation on the New Orleans riverfront when I was in high
school and college, and the wind ocassionally carried its sickly sweet odor
over the uptown university area.
I'll bet this car was equipped with heater coils - warm molasses flows a lot better than well, cold molasses <G>

BTW, what would be the restriction (if any) on cars moving between something like petroleum service and food service (e.g. molasses, vegetable oil, etc)?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Ben Brown
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Clark Propst" <cepropst@n...> wrote:

My question is: If my feed mill were to order a car of molasses from
the sugar plant is there any special type of tank car this would have
been shipped in? Anyone have any examples of tank cars hauling
molasses.
Hello Clark:
When I was growing up as a boy we lived next to a feed mill that had a
regular delivery of molasses in tank cars. That kind of operation has
been of interest since that time. Now that I have added a feed mill to
my layout, I can bring in the molasses. I posted several photos in the
Files under 'Molasses'. The prototype shots were taken at the Illinois
Railway Museum. The end shot clearly shows where the steam was
injected to warm up the fluid molasses. The car at the museum was in
very good shape. You can also see my model of same.
Regards,
Ben Brown


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Clark,

There was a feed dealer in Woodsville NH who received molasses in 55 gallon drums which were emptied into a tank (which was a tank car in a prior life). I doubt the drums were arrived in Woodsville in carload lots - more possibly LCL if by rail.

Tim Gilbert


David Karkoski <karkoskd@...>
 

In 1954 the following cars were delivered to Rochester In by the NKP to
the Wilson Coal And Grain Company:

1954 189 Wilson Coal & Grain 2/22/1954 Rochester IN
317 GMO BLOOMINGTON NKP 649 Mobile AL 2/16/1954
40725 Thomas Snyder Sons Co ILX 894 Molasses 91100
576.28

1954 507 Wilson Coal & Grain 5/3/1954 Rochester IN
535 NO&N AGS CHAR CNOTP DAN SOU A&S MAD NKP 8826 New Orleans LA
4/26/1954 24086 Thos E Snyder Sons ILX 623 Molasses
71500 452.24
David Karkoski


Anyone have any examples of tank cars hauling molasses.


Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

The SP tank cars with the "S" on the dome were often seen at the C&H can sugar refinery in Crockett, California. They might have also been used at Holly or Spreckles refineries, but of that I have information. I used to work across the street from the Holly beet sugar refinery at Dyer (actually Santa Ana, IIRC), and can't remember any tank cars. It is my understanding that the cars carried sugar syrup to various fruit canneries.

Doesn't commercial molasses usually come from sorghum, not sugar can or beets?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Tim O'Connor wrote:

Clark Propst wrote


... is there any special type of tank car [molasses] would
have been shipped in? Anyone have any examples of tank cars
hauling molasses?
Ordinary ICC 103 tank cars could be used for molasses. Usually
they would have heater pipes installed to warm the molasses to
unload it. The Southern Pacific had a number of tank cars in
this service, marked with a large "S" on the dome for "sugar".
The cars were originally built for fuel oil service and most
of them were used for fuel anyway regardless of the "S".

I think Intermountain and Proto 2000 both did corn syrup paint
schemes on their Type 21 & 27 (respectively) tank cars. Syrup
is about the same viscosity as molasses.

Molasses also could be produced from wood fibers. There was an
article some years ago about the Superwood plant in Superior WI
that produced it as a byproduct. (Not for human consumption.)
See RMJ Feb 1990.

Tim O'Connor


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Ordinary ICC 103 tank cars could be used for molasses. Usually
they would have heater pipes installed to warm the molasses to
unload it. The Southern Pacific had a number of tank cars in
this service, marked with a large "S" on the dome for "sugar".
The cars were originally built for fuel oil service and most
of them were used for fuel anyway regardless of the "S".
Not correct, Tim. Molasses is not the same as sugar syrup. The SP cars were modified to accommodate, and were used by C&H Sugar of Crockett, CA for, shipments of sugar syrup. Google both and you'll see the separation.
But it is true that both CAN be made from either sugar beets or sugar cane.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 1, 2006, at 6:32 AM, Clark Propst wrote:

We had a sugar beet processing plant north of town on the CGW. The
M&StL (my RR) would interchange beets directly with the CGW, but all
plant products were interchanged through the MC&CL trolley RR on the
south side of town.

My question is: If my feed mill were to order a car of molasses from
the sugar plant is there any special type of tank car this would have
been shipped in? Anyone have any examples of tank cars hauling
molasses.
Typically, molasses was shipped in conventional ICC-103 or ICC-203 tank
cars equipped with heater coils. Bear in mind, also, that the
proximity of the sugar beet plant to the feed mill did not guarantee
that the feed mill would obtain molasses from it. For any one of
several reasons, price being the most obvious, the feed mill may have
gotten its molasses from a more distant supplier. In fact, if the
local sugar plant did supply the feed mill with molasses, it would
probably have been transported over such a short distance by motor
truck rather than by rail.

Richard Hendrickson


Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Garth & Tony, I didn't know that. I think molasses is the first step
in sugar processing, whether cane or sugar beets (or wood pulp). I think
when it is evaporated its becomes "brown sugar" (not the kind you buy in
the Safeway, which is refined white sugar with molasses added back) and
then it takes further refining to clarify it and crystalize it as white sugar.
I can see why the canneries would not want to use molasses in their
canned fruit, since the molasses has color and flavor that would not go
well with peaches or pears!

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>

The SP tank cars with the "S" on the dome were often seen at the C&H can
sugar refinery in Crockett, California. They might have also been used
at Holly or Spreckles refineries, but of that I have information. I used
to work across the street from the Holly beet sugar refinery at Dyer
(actually Santa Ana, IIRC), and can't remember any tank cars. It is my
understanding that the cars carried sugar syrup to various fruit canneries.
Doesn't commercial molasses usually come from sorghum, not sugar can or
beets?
Kind regards,
Garth G. Groff


Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

At the risk of getting a Mike Brock no-no, I will say that your description of the sugar refining process is essentially correct. The cane or beets are crushed, then cooked to drive off a highly concentrated sweet liquid. This is then centrifuged, probably more than once, depending on desired product, to remove the water and impurities. The intermediate steps are (IIRC from my tour of C&H 30 years ago) raw or turbinado sugar, brown sugar, and finally table white sugar.

At C&H they even poured the mop water from the floors back into the centrifuges (so we were told). They also noted that turbanado sugar, which is popular in the health trade, is the chemically the same as white sugar. It just has more dirt and rat droppings than the white stuff you get in the cute little packets with the train or sailing ship pictures on them.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... wrote:

Thanks Garth & Tony, I didn't know that. I think molasses is the first step
in sugar processing, whether cane or sugar beets (or wood pulp). I think
when it is evaporated its becomes "brown sugar" (not the kind you buy in
the Safeway, which is refined white sugar with molasses added back) and
then it takes further refining to clarify it and crystalize it as white sugar.
I can see why the canneries would not want to use molasses in their
canned fruit, since the molasses has color and flavor that would not go
well with peaches or pears!

Tim O'Connor


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
The cane or beets are crushed, then cooked to drive off a highly concentrated sweet liquid. This is then centrifuged, probably more than once, depending on desired product, to remove the water and impurities. The intermediate steps are (IIRC from my tour of C&H 30 years ago) raw or turbinado sugar, brown sugar, and finally table white sugar.
Maybe you can correct me, Garth, but my understanding is that C&H (in the time period of this list) received raw liquid concentrate from first processing of cane (from both Hawaii and elsewhere) and refined it into various sugar products. These included not only the dry or "table" sugar products listed above, but liquid sugar for other food processors. It was the case in the 1950s that most refined dry sugar was shipped in cartons (containing either supermarket box containers, or the little packets Garth mentioned), with some bulk shipment in bulk in converted box cars. Early in the 1960s, the advent of "Airslide" and related covered hopper technologies took over the bulk dry shipping, but that's off the end of this list.
Several kinds of liquid sugar, different syrup densities and possibly different degrees of refinement, were shipped in bulk in tank cars. There are photos from around 1960 of those SP tank cars in long strings at the C&H plant in Crockett, and if you pass there today on the "Capitol Corridor" train to and from Sacramento from the Bay Area (how I get to CSRM: required research content), you will still see tank cars and covered hoppers being loaded, along with box cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
Tim,

At the risk of getting a Mike Brock no-no, I will say that your
description of the sugar refining process is essentially correct. The
cane or beets are crushed, then cooked to drive off a highly
concentrated sweet liquid. This is then centrifuged, probably more
than once, depending on desired product, to remove the water and
impurities.
The intermediate steps are (IIRC from my tour of C&H 30 years ago)
raw or turbinado sugar, brown sugar, and finally table white sugar.
Garth, I thik a return trip might be called for! 8-)

Taking sugar beets as the example, the process is:

- wash the beets
- slice them
- hot water extraction of sugar
- filtration (different steps using coke (pure carbon), mother of lime, and
SO2
- creation of a supersaturated solution
- first crystal extraction -- white
- repeat crystalization -- the color turning browner with each repeat
extraction
- molassas extraction

The color in sugar is nothing more than impurities they couldn't filter out.
These impurities are various compounds from the sugar bearing plant itself,
cell walls for instance. When they're finally done extracting as much sugar
as they can the residue - molassas -- is still about 50% sugar.

Both the spent beet slices and molasses are used as cattle feed -- the
former often consumed at or near the refinery and the later mixed with
things like alfalfa to make feed pellets. Coke, limestone, and sulphur for
the filtration steps were usually rail delivered in the steam era. And
somewhere in the process you can create MSG but I don't recall how.

For those who enjoy a good how-to book I can recommend _The Manufacture of
Beet Sugar_ made available by the Great Western Sugar Company ca 1921. It
was handed to each new mgmt employee as their introduction to the business.

Dave Nelson


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "David Karkoski" <karkoskd@l...> asked:>
Anyone have any examples of tank cars hauling molasses.
John LaRue has some negatives showing tank cars owned by companies
with molasses in the car owner's name.

Ed


Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony,

I can't remember all that they told us when we toured at C&H (it was over 30 years ago!), but your scenario is essentially correct, AFAIK. C&H had a special ship (or ships) that brought in sugar stock of some sort from Hawaii (granular or liquid, I don't know, but raw granular is more likely). Work at the plant was timed to the ship's schedule, with a campaign lasting 10 days, then four days off for most of the workers. C&H made turbinado, brown, white and powered sugars. Although their boxes all said "Pure cane sugar from Hawaii", this wasn't true of their brown sugar. Their tour guide told us it was beet sugar, since cane doesn't make good brown sugar. This implies that (a) C&H had this sugar made by some other company; (b) they had another plant somewhere; or (c) or they also processed beets at Crocket (which I don't think was so). Talk about truth in advertising!

By the time I visited the plant in the late 1960s, most dry bulk sugar was shipped in Airslide covered hoppers. Packaged goods probably went by RBL, though this is beyond our timeframe.

By the way, I mentioned the Holly plant at Dyer. In the early 1950s, the WP shops in Sacramento rebuilt to 1945 AAR boxcars as bulk sugar covered hoppers which went under lease to Holly to serve this plant. The WP cars were well covered in the railway press at the time. (These were the inspiration for the sadly inaccurate WP "Bulk Sugar" cars offered by Train Miniature and Athearn.) The cars were moderately successful, and according to the article two more cars were built for the SP under contract. Tony, do you know if the SP cars were actually built? I have a photo in my collection of a converted SP car, but I don't know if this is part of the same group.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Anthony Thompson wrote:

Garth Groff wrote:

The cane or beets are crushed, then cooked to drive off a highly concentrated sweet liquid. This is then centrifuged, probably more than once, depending on desired product, to remove the water and impurities. The intermediate steps are (IIRC from my tour of C&H 30 years ago) raw or turbinado sugar, brown sugar, and finally table white sugar.
Maybe you can correct me, Garth, but my understanding is that C&H (in the time period of this list) received raw liquid concentrate from first processing of cane (from both Hawaii and elsewhere) and refined it into various sugar products. These included not only the dry or "table" sugar products listed above, but liquid sugar for other food processors. It was the case in the 1950s that most refined dry sugar was shipped in cartons (containing either supermarket box containers, or the little packets Garth mentioned), with some bulk shipment in bulk in converted box cars. Early in the 1960s, the advent of "Airslide" and related covered hopper technologies took over the bulk dry shipping, but that's off the end of this list.
Several kinds of liquid sugar, different syrup densities and possibly different degrees of refinement, were shipped in bulk in tank cars. There are photos from around 1960 of those SP tank cars in long strings at the C&H plant in Crockett, and if you pass there today on the "Capitol Corridor" train to and from Sacramento from the Bay Area (how I get to CSRM: required research content), you will still see tank cars and covered hoppers being loaded, along with box cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



Yahoo! Groups Links






Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dave,

Thanks much for the additional information and corrections. When it comes to impurities, the guide specifically mentioned rat droppings and dirt. Interesting that they still gave us little packets of turbinado sugar in the goodie bags everyone one the tour received.

I doubt that C&H offers tours any longer. Liability, and homeland security, you know.

Maybe we should get back to trains before Mike lowers the boom on us.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:

Garth Groff wrote:

Tim,

At the risk of getting a Mike Brock no-no, I will say that your
description of the sugar refining process is essentially correct. The
cane or beets are crushed, then cooked to drive off a highly
concentrated sweet liquid. This is then centrifuged, probably more
than once, depending on desired product, to remove the water and
impurities. The intermediate steps are (IIRC from my tour of C&H 30 years ago)
raw or turbinado sugar, brown sugar, and finally table white sugar.
Garth, I thik a return trip might be called for! 8-)

Taking sugar beets as the example, the process is:

- wash the beets
- slice them
- hot water extraction of sugar
- filtration (different steps using coke (pure carbon), mother of lime, and
SO2
- creation of a supersaturated solution
- first crystal extraction -- white
- repeat crystalization -- the color turning browner with each repeat
extraction
- molassas extraction

The color in sugar is nothing more than impurities they couldn't filter out.
These impurities are various compounds from the sugar bearing plant itself,
cell walls for instance. When they're finally done extracting as much sugar
as they can the residue - molassas -- is still about 50% sugar.

Both the spent beet slices and molasses are used as cattle feed -- the
former often consumed at or near the refinery and the later mixed with
things like alfalfa to make feed pellets. Coke, limestone, and sulphur for
the filtration steps were usually rail delivered in the steam era. And
somewhere in the process you can create MSG but I don't recall how.

For those who enjoy a good how-to book I can recommend _The Manufacture of
Beet Sugar_ made available by the Great Western Sugar Company ca 1921. It
was handed to each new mgmt employee as their introduction to the business.

Dave Nelson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
I can't remember all that they told us when we toured at C&H (it was
over 30 years ago!), but your scenario is essentially correct, AFAIK.
C&H had a special ship (or ships) that brought in sugar stock of some
sort from Hawaii (granular or liquid, I don't know, but raw granular is
more likely).
There are usually ships docked there today.

brown sugar. Their tour guide told us it was beet sugar, since cane
doesn't make good brown sugar. This implies that (a) C&H had this sugar
made by some other company; (b) they had another plant somewhere; or (c)
or they also processed beets at Crocket (which I don't think was so).
I'd assume they received raw syrup or granules of beet product, like the cane product. There was never any initial beet or cane processing at Crockett AFAIK.

By the way, I mentioned the Holly plant at Dyer. In the early 1950s, the
WP shops in Sacramento rebuilt to 1945 AAR boxcars as bulk sugar covered
hoppers which went under lease to Holly to serve this plant. The WP cars
were well covered in the railway press at the time. (These were the
inspiration for the sadly inaccurate WP "Bulk Sugar" cars offered by
Train Miniature and Athearn.) The cars were moderately successful, and
according to the article two more cars were built for the SP under
contract. Tony, do you know if the SP cars were actually built? I have a
photo in my collection of a converted SP car, but I don't know if this
is part of the same group.
Yes, there was a _Railway Age_ article on the WP cars and the SP cars were mentioned. I have photos of several classes of SP cars like this, converted from box cars, with varying internal slope sheets, etc. They were reclassified as "H" class cars and no longer had side doors.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Maybe we should get back to trains before Mike lowers the boom on us.
Most parts of this thread have mentioned freight cars, or freight car research <g>.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Shawn Beckert
 

As a side note to the suger/molasses discussion, the California
State Railroad Museum Library has 46 different track diagrams of
Crockett on file, at least one of which shows the C&H sugar plant
layout as of 1950:

Southern Pacific. 37816 Apr. 1950 Crockett: California & Hawaiian
Sugar Refining Corporation, Ltd., plant. Scale 1:60. 29 x 66 Brown
line on white paper. Filing location:Tube 248 ID 18799
Geographic Location: California. Contra Costa County. Crockett


Shawn Beckert