hoppers in interchange,


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

From: "jim_mischke" <jmischke@worldnet.att.net>

I'm responding to this because I take exception to " They were the biggest moochers ever of other railroads' cars". I contend that on the NYC (60's) we could out mooch anyone when it came to using the other guys hoppers. But we did, as did the others, observe CSO 411.

The following comments are some technical points for those interested in the details.

The main restrictions in the early fifties were on N&W, VGN, L&N, and C&O hoppers. These hoppers were mandated to go home directly empty. Also WM.
> B&O did not subscribe to the 411 car service rule.

This restriction was under Car Service Directive 411, which by the way was not a car service rule. The AAR Car Service Division from time to time issued Car Service Directives and Special Car Orders, e.g. SCO90, which were modifications to the car service rules.

Although order prohibited loading of those marks, I don't believe it said anything about sending them home directly. It allowed returning via reverse route.





There were also some restrictions on C&EI, MP, and MILW hoppers operating out of certain markets.

They were the biggest moochers ever of other railroads' cars and had to play the game that way, in the great hopper free-for-all.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Joseph Walder <jjm1177@...>
 

Guys -

What are your thoughts on what the anthracite railroads did to foreign open top hoppers during the steam era? Most of the railroads in the anthracite region of Pennsylvania would use foreign cars on-line to fill with coal and they tended to remain on-line going back and forth between the coal mine/breaker and the customer before the foreign railroad called and asked where their hoppers were. You can find this fact in one of the Morning Sun books because there's a comment in the book (I apologize to the author of the book because I forget the exact book, but it's one of the freight car books on the CNJ/LV, Erie/DL&W, D&H, RDG).

I know that the NYO&W Railway was doing this in the late 1940s-1950s. Many B&O, D&H and PRR cars were in O&W coal trains moving over the road (especially after WWII when Europe was rebuilding and coal was being shipped like crazy to the East Coast ports to be loaded on boats to head "across the pond"). Now yes, there was some leasing agreements involved, and yes, the O&W did purchase both PRR & NYNH&H hopper cars, and yes, the O&W did not have many of their own cars available for interchange, but there were many comments from former O&W railroaders that said that if there was a foreign car was on-line and available, then it was "grabbed" and placed in the train.

Isn't this along the lines of where this discussion is going?

Talk to you later,

Joe Walder


armprem
 

There is plenty of documentation that indicates this rule was
frequently ignored.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Laughlin" <mlaughlinnyc@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: [STMFC] hoppers in interchange,


From: "jim_mischke" <jmischke@worldnet.att.net>

I'm responding to this because I take exception to " They were the
biggest moochers ever of other railroads' cars". I contend that on the NYC
(60's) we could out mooch anyone when it came to using the other guys
hoppers. But we did, as did the others, observe CSO 411.

The following comments are some technical points for those interested in
the details.

The main restrictions in the early fifties were on N&W, VGN, L&N, and
C&O hoppers. These hoppers were mandated to go home directly empty. Also
WM.
> B&O did not subscribe to the 411 car service rule.

This restriction was under Car Service Directive 411, which by the way
was not a car service rule. The AAR Car Service Division from time to time
issued Car Service Directives and Special Car Orders, e.g. SCO90, which were
modifications to the car service rules.

Although order prohibited loading of those marks, I don't believe it
said anything about sending them home directly. It allowed returning via
reverse route.





There were also some restrictions on C&EI, MP, and MILW hoppers
operating out of certain markets.

They were the biggest moochers ever of other railroads' cars and had to
play the game that way, in the great hopper free-for-all.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478






Yahoo! Groups Links






Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Joseph Walder wrote:

What are your thoughts on what the anthracite railroads did to foreign open top hoppers during the steam era?
Joe,

Between November 5th and December 10th, 1952, New Hampshire's Suncook Valley RR received four loads of Anthracite from a mine or breaker in Coxton PA which was in the Lehigh Valley: - D&H 3835; L&NE 14087; LV 17350 and PRR Glca Class Gon #209917. From November 1st to December 20th when the SunVal was embargoed prior to abandonment, there were seven inbound loads of anthracite (including the above), and three loads of bituminous. All three of the bituminous loads were loaded into home road hoppers. Only three of the six hoppers loaded with Anthracite were loaded into home road hoppers - the seventh was the PRR Gon.

This may be an indication that roads loading anthracite were more apt to poach foreign hoppers rather than classify the home from the foreign ones which could then be returned to their owners as empties. Please note, however, that hoppers of bituminous roads were not loaded with anthracite for this small sample.

Most of the railroads in the anthracite region of Pennsylvania would use foreign cars on-line to fill with coal and they tended to remain on-line going back and forth between the coal mine/breaker and the customer before the foreign railroad called and asked where their hoppers were. You can find this fact in one of the Morning Sun books because there's a comment in the book (I apologize to the author of the book because I forget the exact book, but it's one of the freight car books on the CNJ/LV, Erie/DL&W, D&H, RDG).
In these mine-to-breaker-mine movement cycles, did they include only hoppers of the anthracite roads, or include some from the bituminous roads, too? For this purpose, please consider the PRR and ERIE as anthracite roads.

I know that the NYO&W Railway was doing this in the late 1940s-1950s. Many B&O, D&H and PRR cars were in O&W coal trains moving over the road (especially after WWII when Europe was rebuilding and coal was being shipped like crazy to the East Coast ports to be loaded on boats to head "across the pond").
Carrying Anthracite, Bituminous, or Both? Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Port of New York was equipped to load barges with coal, but not ships while I don't believe any southern New England port was equipped to load ships with coal.

Now yes, there was some leasing agreements involved, and yes, the O&W did purchase both PRR & NYNH&H hopper cars, and yes, the O&W did not have many of their own cars available for interchange, but there were many comments from former O&W railroaders that said that if there was a foreign car was on-line and available, then it was "grabbed" and placed in the train.
That seems to be more of a testament to the condition of the O&W hopper fleet more than anything else.

Ben Hom may be better able to comment on this than I after his study of hopper movements on the Rutland.

Tim Gilbert


Doug Brown <g.brown1@...>
 

PRR class GLCA is most definitely a two bay hopper, not a gon. Several early
classes of PRR hopper cars were class G..., including class GD the USRA twin
hopper.

Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Gilbert
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:55 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] hoppers in interchange,

Joseph Walder wrote:

What are your thoughts on what the anthracite railroads did to foreign
open top hoppers during the steam era?
Joe,

Between November 5th and December 10th, 1952, New Hampshire's Suncook
Valley RR received four loads of Anthracite from a mine or breaker in
Coxton PA which was in the Lehigh Valley: - D&H 3835; L&NE 14087; LV
17350 and PRR Glca Class Gon #209917. From November 1st to December 20th
when the SunVal was embargoed prior to abandonment, there were seven
inbound loads of anthracite (including the above), and three loads of
bituminous. All three of the bituminous loads were loaded into home road
hoppers. Only three of the six hoppers loaded with Anthracite were
loaded into home road hoppers - the seventh was the PRR Gon.

This may be an indication that roads loading anthracite were more apt to
poach foreign hoppers rather than classify the home from the foreign
ones which could then be returned to their owners as empties. Please
note, however, that hoppers of bituminous roads were not loaded with
anthracite for this small sample.

Most of the railroads in the anthracite region of Pennsylvania would
use foreign cars on-line to fill with coal and they tended to remain
on-line going back and forth between the coal mine/breaker and the
customer before the foreign railroad called and asked where their
hoppers were. You can find this fact in one of the Morning Sun books
because there's a comment in the book (I apologize to the author of
the book because I forget the exact book, but it's one of the freight
car books on the CNJ/LV, Erie/DL&W, D&H, RDG).
In these mine-to-breaker-mine movement cycles, did they include only
hoppers of the anthracite roads, or include some from the bituminous
roads, too? For this purpose, please consider the PRR and ERIE as
anthracite roads.

I know that the NYO&W Railway was doing this in the late 1940s-1950s.
Many B&O, D&H and PRR cars were in O&W coal trains moving over the
road (especially after WWII when Europe was rebuilding and coal was
being shipped like crazy to the East Coast ports to be loaded on boats
to head "across the pond").
Carrying Anthracite, Bituminous, or Both? Also, to the best of my
knowledge, the Port of New York was equipped to load barges with coal,
but not ships while I don't believe any southern New England port was
equipped to load ships with coal.

Now yes, there was some leasing agreements involved, and yes, the O&W
did purchase both PRR & NYNH&H hopper cars, and yes, the O&W did not
have many of their own cars available for interchange, but there were
many comments from former O&W railroaders that said that if there was
a foreign car was on-line and available, then it was "grabbed" and
placed in the train.
That seems to be more of a testament to the condition of the O&W hopper
fleet more than anything else.

Ben Hom may be better able to comment on this than I after his study of
hopper movements on the Rutland.

Tim Gilbert




Yahoo! Groups Links








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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Doug Brown wrote:
"Several early classes of PRR hopper cars were class G..., including
class GD the USRA twin hopper."

Doug meant "Class GLD" for the USRA twins.


Ben Hom


Doug Brown <g.brown1@...>
 

Thanks, Ben



I meant to say "Several early classes of PRR hopper cars were class GL...,
including class GLD the USRA twin hopper."



For those interested class GL was built 7-1898 to 1-1904. They were
converted into class GLC with a shallower slope of the cross ridge between
4-23 and 1935. Starting in 1941 they were converted to class GLCA with
changes including AB brakes and power hand brake mechanisms. They were gone
by 2-57. Some of these 19th century cars outlasted steam on the Pennsy. For
more information see John Teichmoeller's book Pennsylvania Railroad Steel
Open Top Hopper Cars from Highlands Station. I wish there were more books
like it!



Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
benjaminfrank_hom
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 5:52 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hoppers in interchange,



Doug Brown wrote:

"Several early classes of PRR hopper cars were class G..., including

class GD the USRA twin hopper."



Doug meant "Class GLD" for the USRA twins.





Ben Hom















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Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Carrying Anthracite, Bituminous, or Both? Also, to the best of my
knowledge, the Port of New York was equipped to load barges with
coal,
but not ships
I dunno 'bout this, Tim. I can think of three regional ship loading
operations to consider.

The Susquehanna operated a dumper at Edgewater (Port of New York)
through the war and on into the Marshall Plan years. I can't recite
when it shut down off the top of my head, but I guesstimate '47
or '48 and can look it up if you'd like. This was the destination
for quite a bit of anthracite loaded on O&W. Erie controlled
Susquehanna 1898-1940; Edgewater continued to dump Erie coal after
Susquehanna won its independence in 1940.

RDG operated a dumper at Port Reading (Port of New York). I'm not
sure of the years of its operation, but am sure that it continued
operation well past the war.

Relevant to anthracite road dumpers, though not to the Port of NY,
RDG also operated a dumper at Port Richmond (Port of Philadelphia).
I saw Port Richmond dumping coal in 1972 or 1973. I don't know if
this was anthracite or bituminous.

I don't mean to say that these dumpers only loaded ships; I'm not
familiar with their barge loading operations.

To Joe's earlier comments about about foreign cars on anthracite
roads, I'm inclined to agree with his conclusions. Tim's follow up
on Suncook Valley coal supports this. I have some data collected
about anthracite movement over Susquehanna which I believe adds more
support. However, I'm only in the preliminary stages of processing
this data.


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Doug Brown wrote:
"For those interested class GL was built 7-1898 to 1-1904. They were
converted into class GLC with a shallower slope of the cross ridge
between 4-23 and 1935. Starting in 1941 they were converted to class
GLCA with changes including AB brakes and power hand brake mechanisms.
They were gone by 2-57. Some of these 19th century cars outlasted
steam on the Pennsy."

Actually, there were still 730 cars listed in 1957. The last Class
GLCA were off the roster by February 1967. These cars nearly
outlasted the Pennsy!


Ben Hom


David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

In a 1933 photo of a blast furnace on the D&H Chateauguay branch in the
northern Adirondacks, the three identifiable cars of coke(?) in the
foreground are all PRR quad hoppers (not exactly what I expected, but
great news for the H21 project). The closest coke works is on the D&H
at Port Henry. Maybe they were captured or maybe the coke came from
somewhere at least closer to PRR rails, anyone know more?

Dave Smith

David L. Smith, Ph.D.

Director of Professional Development

Da Vinci Discovery Center, Allentown, PA

http://www.davinci-center.org <http://www.davinci-center.org/>

"Who will pick up where Leonardo left off?"

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Joseph Walder
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:21 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] hoppers in interchange,


Guys -

What are your thoughts on what the anthracite railroads did to foreign
open top hoppers during the steam era? Most of the railroads in the
anthracite region of Pennsylvania would use foreign cars on-line to fill
with coal and they tended to remain on-line going back and forth between
the coal mine/breaker and the customer before the foreign railroad
called and asked where their hoppers were. You can find this fact in
one of the Morning Sun books because there's a comment in the book (I
apologize to the author of the book because I forget the exact book, but
it's one of the freight car books on the CNJ/LV, Erie/DL&W, D&H, RDG).
snip<


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jim Mischke wrote:
"The main restrictions in the early fifties were on N&W, VGN, L&N,
and C&O hoppers. These hoppers were mandated to go home directly
empty. Also WM."

Armand Premo responded:
"There is plenty of documentation that indicates this rule was
frequently ignored."

Maybe so, but your own Rutland data shows that cars from these roads
were very uncommon among cars providing company coal:

1106 total foreign road hoppers
N&W: 5
VGN: 0
L&N: 1
C&O: 3
WM: 13


Ben Hom


armprem
 

Agreed Ben,but we can never say never .<g> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hoppers in interchange,


Jim Mischke wrote:
"The main restrictions in the early fifties were on N&W, VGN, L&N,
and C&O hoppers. These hoppers were mandated to go home directly
empty. Also WM."

Armand Premo responded:
"There is plenty of documentation that indicates this rule was
frequently ignored."

Maybe so, but your own Rutland data shows that cars from these roads
were very uncommon among cars providing company coal:

1106 total foreign road hoppers
N&W: 5
VGN: 0
L&N: 1
C&O: 3
WM: 13


Ben Hom








Yahoo! Groups Links






jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I am under the impression that the flow characteristics are
different for anthracite and bituminous. In order to be self
clearing, cars loaded with anthracite need a steeper slope sheet
angle. Hence the common fishbelly hoppers amongst the anthracite
roads.

Using any old foreign hopper car just passing by for anthracite
loading may be expeditious but would be objectionable to consignees,
because the cars would not unload without some manual persuasion.
If the railroad cares about that.

















--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Walder" <jjm1177@...> wrote:

Guys -

What are your thoughts on what the anthracite railroads did to
foreign open top hoppers during the steam era? Most of the
railroads in the anthracite region of Pennsylvania would use foreign
cars on-line to fill with coal and they tended to remain on-line
going back and forth between the coal mine/breaker and the customer
before the foreign railroad called and asked where their hoppers
were. You can find this fact in one of the Morning Sun books
because there's a comment in the book (I apologize to the author of
the book because I forget the exact book, but it's one of the
freight car books on the CNJ/LV, Erie/DL&W, D&H, RDG).

I know that the NYO&W Railway was doing this in the late 1940s-
1950s. Many B&O, D&H and PRR cars were in O&W coal trains moving
over the road (especially after WWII when Europe was rebuilding and
coal was being shipped like crazy to the East Coast ports to be
loaded on boats to head "across the pond"). Now yes, there was some
leasing agreements involved, and yes, the O&W did purchase both PRR
& NYNH&H hopper cars, and yes, the O&W did not have many of their
own cars available for interchange, but there were many comments
from former O&W railroaders that said that if there was a foreign
car was on-line and available, then it was "grabbed" and placed in
the train.

Isn't this along the lines of where this discussion is going?

Talk to you later,

Joe Walder

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


dehusman <dehusman@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:
Using any old foreign hopper car just passing by for anthracite
loading may be expeditious but would be objectionable to consignees,
because the cars would not unload without some manual persuasion.
If the railroad cares about that.
==========================
The Pennsy shipped both hard and soft coal and used the same fleet of
hoppers to ship both kinds of coal. The pictures of the hard coal
mines in Shamokin show H21 hoppers by the dozens.

Dave H.


dehusman <dehusman@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:
Hence the common fishbelly hoppers amongst the anthracite
roads.
===========================
Didn't the WM and NW have lots of fishbellies and they were soft coal
roads?

Dave H.


Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:

I am under the impression that the flow characteristics are
different for anthracite and bituminous. In order to be self
clearing, cars loaded with anthracite need a steeper slope sheet
angle. Hence the common fishbelly hoppers amongst the anthracite
roads.
Interesting. I can't confirm this, and I can't refute it. However,
ERIE rostered no fishbelly hoppers (assuming we're referring to the
design that the Stewart model is based on). DL&W, "The Road of
Anthracite", didn't, either.