Super Glue


SD9E@...
 

I have found that the three little tubes for $1.99 from Harbor Freight work
as well as any super glue. In addition the spout cover seems to seal as well
as any other closure. I keep the ones not in use in the refrigerator. That
said, all my experience is in western Oregon where the indoor humidity in winter
is very low and the summer humidity is desert-like. I like the low price and
the fact that there are small individual tubes to use. Jeff Pape


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

I'm having trouble using cyanoacrylate for kit assembly. The most
recent difficulty is attaching the wire grab irons to a Life-Like war
emergency composite hopper.

I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's
attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still
jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro
brand.

I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure
or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The
humidity is 14% this morning.

How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Anyone care to recommend any particular brand?
How do you get the "instant" part to work?
Bottom line is I've never gotten "super glue" to work. Has anyone
else? Or is this just an elaborate marketing hoax?

Back to the Life-Like war emergency composite hopper, has anyone just
pressed the grabs into the holes and omitted the use of glue? Have the
grabs fallen out? Used a different type of glue?

I am definately open to suggestions here.

Gene Green


Bruce Smith
 

On Feb 9, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Gene Green wrote:
I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's
attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still
jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro
brand.
Was it jelly-like when you opened it? When you used it last night?

I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure
or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The
humidity is 14% this morning.
No! Moisture interferes with ACC curing and bonding. All parts should be dry and no water should be introduced.

How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Where I live (alabama), about 6 months or less. You can increase this by keeping it in the fridge. I buy the cheapest stuff I can and usually throw away half a bottle or so.

Anyone care to recommend any particular brand?
Loctite, Hobbytown, whatever. If you're feeling rich or want to bond to delrin, use Cyanopoxy.

How do you get the "instant" part to work?
Use the accelerator. This is usually acetone. I love it when Mike Rose sells "Cyanopoxy" and claims it isn't ACC. Funny thing is that the EXACT same accelerator works with it, and the Cyanopoxy folks provide it in a nice convenient spray bottle (expensive too). You may be able to salvage your bad stuff with a spritz of accelerator.

Bottom line is I've never gotten "super glue" to work. Has anyone
else? Or is this just an elaborate marketing hoax?
No, it works great. If you use the "thin" or "super thin" stuff, the bond should be nearly instant... The "thick" or "gap filling" kind dries more slowly (30-60 seconds). Note that this is not a fusion bond like plastic cement, so enough shear force can usually break it, and smooth surfaces are weaker bonders as well. When joining large joints, such as resin freight car sides, always make sure that the surface to be glued has a least a little "tooth" to help the bond. Oh yeah, and don't use too much. "Super glue" works best when capillary action is used to wick the glue between the pieces to be bonded.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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Jack Burgess
 

I've never had a problem with cyanoacrylate. I have used Zap by Pacer
Industries for years. I buy only the super thin variety and have never used
any of the slower setting varieties (I don't have the patience for
slow-setting versions.<g>) They do have a shelf life although I can't tell
you what it is....I buy only the smallest bottle and then toss it when the
material in the bottle doesn't shake anymore. I don't try to cap the bottle
and instead just leave the "teflon" tube in place in the top of the bottle.

I don't use a needle or other kind of applicator...instead, I add a drop of
cyanoacrylate to the joint using the supplied tube and then quickly wick off
the excess with the corner of a Kleenex tissue. The joint will be dry within
seconds of wicking off the excess. If you are careful, you won't see any
glue on the joint after painting. When I want an extremely tough joint (such
as the inside of a resin box car) where the material won't show, I sometimes
add the Zap to the joint and then quickly spray it with a "kicker"
accelerator.

I can't tell what your problem is....possibly you are adding too much
cyanoacrylate to the joint but that is only a guess. Yes, the glue does need
humidity to dry (that is why it glues your fingers together) but, if you
don't have too much on the joint and blow on it, the humidity in your breath
might be enough. Our humidity runs around 40% year around so I can't tell if
that is the problem. You might give the super thin Zap a try.

Good luck...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


ljack70117@...
 

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:


On Feb 9, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Gene Green wrote:
I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's
attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still
jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro
brand.
Was it jelly-like when you opened it? When you used it last night?

I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure
or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The
humidity is 14% this morning.
No! Moisture interferes with ACC curing and bonding. All parts
should be dry and no water should be introduced.
Sorry Bruce but the moisture in the air is what sets up the super glue. The original brand was Eastman. I find it to be the best. There was a TV show on PBS last night about it. Two guys in Tennessee discovered it by accident and Eastman put it on the market.
How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Where I live (alabama), about 6 months or less. You can increase
this by keeping it in the fridge. I buy the cheapest stuff I can and
usually throw away half a bottle or so.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Note that this is not a fusion
bond like plastic cement, so enough shear force can usually break it,
and smooth surfaces are weaker bonders as well.
In fact, the super glue joint is remarkably weak in shear, compared to tension. We take advantage of this in mechanical testing by using super glue to attach the holders for clip gauges. After testing, just strike them sharply in shear and they pop off.
I agree with the rest of Bruce's summary. It fits with my experience. I'm guessing that the glue Gene used was too old.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

I haven't seen Bill Darnaby join in this discussion, so I'll mention that
I've been following advice he gave in a talk on building resin kits, to use
whatever super glue was cheapest at the local hardware store. For the Ace
hardware outlet I like, that's usually a Loctite product, but I'm not hung
up on that brand. The point is that since it's cheap, I don't worry about
storing it for a long time or using every last drop in the container. I pick
up a new one every month or so and throw out the old one, so the stuff I
have on hand is usually pretty fresh.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-11142


Bruce Smith
 

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:13 AM, ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
No! Moisture interferes with ACC curing and bonding. All parts
should be dry and no water should be introduced.
Sorry Bruce but the moisture in the air is what sets up the super
glue. The original brand was Eastman. I find it to be the best. There
was a TV show on PBS last night about it. Two guys in Tennessee
discovered it by accident and Eastman put it on the market.
Larry,

Water VAPOR or trace water (ie hydrated hydrophillic molecules) causes it to set up. That's why it goes bad in the tube. BTW, it isn't water specifically, but ANY weak base that counteracts the weak acid in the ACC. Water in the liquid form however interferes with the ability of ACC to make a bond. I know from both modeling and operating room experience. If you try to glue pieces of a body back together with blood on them, it doesn't work. The surfaces must be free of blood to get a good bond. (BTW I won't say if the preceding was the OR or modeling experience <G>)

I did make one error. Acetone is the debonder, not the active ingredient in the accelerator. The active ingredient in the accelerators consists of a weak base in a carrier of isopropyl alcohol or acetone.


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Gene,

My favorite ACC is one made by Lok Tite. I get it at Home Depot. I
first heard about it on this list. Its most impressive feature is that
it does not freeze up un the bottle anywhere near as fast as other
brands.

As for instant setting, use an accelerator. I get that at my local
hobby shop. It comes in a pump spray bottle and its most impressive
feature is that it does not appear to have an effect on anything other
than the ACC. I have not seen it disturb paint, or plastic, or
lettering. It evaporates quickly leaving no visible residue.


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gene Green
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 11:22 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Super Glue

I'm having trouble using cyanoacrylate for kit assembly. The most
recent difficulty is attaching the wire grab irons to a Life-Like war
emergency composite hopper.

I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's
attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still
jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro
brand.

I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure
or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The
humidity is 14% this morning.

How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Anyone care to recommend any particular brand?
How do you get the "instant" part to work?
Bottom line is I've never gotten "super glue" to work. Has anyone
else? Or is this just an elaborate marketing hoax?

Back to the Life-Like war emergency composite hopper, has anyone just
pressed the grabs into the holes and omitted the use of glue? Have the

grabs fallen out? Used a different type of glue?

I am definately open to suggestions here.

Gene Green








Yahoo! Groups Links


ljack70117@...
 

Water Vapor, trace water and water in liquid form is to me water. You are just playing with words.
The same applies for resin. Water vapor, trace water, water in liquid form or moisture will make it foam. You need a dry room and as dry as you can make it or keep the resin stored under a nitrogen envelope to keep it from foaming.
On Feb 9, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:13 AM, ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
No! Moisture interferes with ACC curing and bonding. All parts
should be dry and no water should be introduced.
Sorry Bruce but the moisture in the air is what sets up the super
glue. The original brand was Eastman. I find it to be the best. There
was a TV show on PBS last night about it. Two guys in Tennessee
discovered it by accident and Eastman put it on the market.
Larry,

Water VAPOR or trace water (ie hydrated hydrophillic molecules)
causes it to set up. That's why it goes bad in the tube. BTW, it
isn't water specifically, but ANY weak base that counteracts the weak
acid in the ACC. Water in the liquid form however interferes with
the ability of ACC to make a bond. I know from both modeling and
operating room experience. If you try to glue pieces of a body back
together with blood on them, it doesn't work. The surfaces must be
free of blood to get a good bond. (BTW I won't say if the preceding
was the OR or modeling experience <G>)

I did make one error. Acetone is the debonder, not the active
ingredient in the accelerator. The active ingredient in the
accelerators consists of a weak base in a carrier of isopropyl
alcohol or acetone.


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0





Yahoo! Groups Links






Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


John Van Buekenhout <jvanbu1347@...>
 

Check the Lee Valley Tools site for Super Glue accelerators.
Jack

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Super Glue


I'm having trouble using cyanoacrylate for kit assembly. The most recent difficulty is attaching the wire grab irons to a Life-Like war emergency composite hopper.
I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro brand.
I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The humidity is 14% this morning.
How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Anyone care to recommend any particular brand?
How do you get the "instant" part to work?
Bottom line is I've never gotten "super glue" to work. Has anyone else? Or is this just an elaborate marketing hoax?
Back to the Life-Like war emergency composite hopper, has anyone just pressed the grabs into the holes and omitted the use of glue? Have the grabs fallen out? Used a different type of glue?
I am definately open to suggestions here.
Gene Green
Yahoo! Groups Links


Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

...I love it when Mike
Rose sells "Cyanopoxy" and claims it isn't ACC. Funny thing is that
the EXACT same accelerator works with it, and the Cyanopoxy folks
provide it in a nice convenient spray bottle (expensive too).
I, donno, if it's ACC, it's ACC on steroids.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

In fact, the super glue joint is remarkably weak in shear,
compared to tension. We take advantage of this in mechanical testing by
using super glue to attach the holders for clip gauges. After testing,
just strike them sharply in shear and they pop off.
My experience comes from gluing blocks of graphite to 20mm diameter steel shanks for use as EDM electrodes. We originally used any old "super glue", they all seemed to work just as well. One problem we used to have, however, was aligning the index pin square to the edges of the block, since the super glue grabbed the instant it touched whether the shank was properly aligned or not. We changed to Cyanopoxy to take advantage of it's longer open time, which ends when the "kicker" is sprayed.

When using super glue, occasionally if a 'trode was bumped, the glue line would shear and the graphite drop off; very disconcerting. This problem ended when we switched to Cyanopoxy. To reclaim the shanks when all the usable graphite was machined away, we used to simply hold the shank and rap the edge of the graphite on the bench, and they'd pop apart. First time I did this with one attached with Cyanopoxy, it bounced. It bounced the second, third, and fourth time, also. We now hit them with a brass hammer, which fractures the graphite, leaving a cone of graphite still attached to the shank, which we grind off on the surface grinder.

The basic chemistry of Ctanopoxy may be the same as cyanoacrylate, but the physical properties are much better.

Dennis Storzek


Bruce Smith
 

On Thu, February 9, 2006 12:17 pm, ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:
Water Vapor, trace water and water in liquid form is to me water. You
are just playing with words.
Larry,

No, I'm not "just playing with words". There are three phases of matter.
Solid, liquid, gas. "Water vapor" is water in the gas phase. The next
time you dive into a swimming pool filled with gaseous water, I think
you'll understand the difference ;^)

As I said, you cannot use ACC to bond wet surfaces.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn Al


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
No, I'm not "just playing with words". There are three phases of matter.
Solid, liquid, gas. "Water vapor" is water in the gas phase. The next
time you dive into a swimming pool filled with gaseous water, I think
you'll understand the difference ;^)
Bruce is of course right, particularly since the usual "civilian" meaning of "water" is certainly liquid water. Most people are well aware that steam and ice are also water, but it's no accident we have separate names for those things. And if Larry thinks there is no difference between high humidity and desert humidity, he should travel more <g>.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


SamClarke
 

Hello Gene and group,

I use a lot of different CA glues and the best I've found for our needs
has been Dr. Mikes and 3M ProntoT CA7. Both of these have a very long shelf
life here in south western Oregon and are quite well suited for use on a
number of different plastics we experiment with, of course still limited to
the shear strength as Mr. Thompson has mentioned. These are very thin liquid
and fast setting, the thicker CA is the longer the drying time. Also, CA was
developed for splicing film together but has been used in the medical field
for such thing as sutures, etc. I use it for fine cuts (paper) and dry
cracks in my finger tips.
Unfortunately, these are not for the budget minded as both are more
expensive than many other makes of CA glues.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miller, Andrew S." <asmiller@mitre.org>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Super Glue


Gene Green
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 11:22 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Super Glue

I'm having trouble using cyanoacrylate for kit assembly. The most
recent difficulty is attaching the wire grab irons to a Life-Like war
emergency composite hopper.

I've tried a variety of brands over the years although last night's
attempt was with the Super Glue Co brand. This morning it is still
jelly-like and somewhat sticky. The next two tubes on hand are Duro
brand.

I've heard that moisture acts as a catalyst to help cyanoacrylate cure
or harden or whatever it is supposed to do. Is this true? The
humidity is 14% this morning.

How long is the shelf-life of this stuff?
Anyone care to recommend any particular brand?
How do you get the "instant" part to work?
Bottom line is I've never gotten "super glue" to work. Has anyone
else? Or is this just an elaborate marketing hoax?

Back to the Life-Like war emergency composite hopper, has anyone just
pressed the grabs into the holes and omitted the use of glue? Have the

grabs fallen out? Used a different type of glue?

I am definately open to suggestions here.

Gene Green








Yahoo! Groups Links









Yahoo! Groups Links





al_brown03
 

Wayne Wesolowski summarized the chemistry of cyanoacrylate cements in
the July 1988 Model Railroader ... to wit: Cyanoacrylate cures by
polymerizing. Water initiates the polymerization; other hydroxylic
compounds can work too. Most places are humid enough that the water
vapor in the air will make your ACC cure. El Paso may not be (Gene,
did you say *fourteen* per cent humidity?); I'd be tempted to spray
just a little water on an ACC'd joint (with a plant sprayer if you
have a small one), see if it cures any better. Or as Tony suggests,
your ACC may be old; thus it might be mostly polymerized already, in
which case water won't help. It'll just lie there gooey.

I use ACC from the supermarket, store it in a Mason jar with some
desiccant (Drierite brand from the lab, active ingredient calcium
sulfate). I bother doing this because modelling time is hard enough
to come by that I hate needing unplanned trips to the store. ACC
keeps pretty well this way, has a shelf life of months even in
Florida, home of alligators snakes frogs & other swamp critters.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
No, I'm not "just playing with words". There are three phases of
matter.
Solid, liquid, gas. "Water vapor" is water in the gas phase.
The next
time you dive into a swimming pool filled with gaseous water, I
think
you'll understand the difference ;^)
Bruce is of course right, particularly since the
usual "civilian"
meaning of "water" is certainly liquid water. Most people are well
aware that steam and ice are also water, but it's no accident we
have
separate names for those things. And if Larry thinks there is no
difference between high humidity and desert humidity, he should
travel
more <g>.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Gene Green's post really got my attention if for the only reason I have had the identical frustrations with ACC, and he beat me to actually making an inquiry!

In my view, the promotion of ACC as the best thing in modeling since sliced bread has been at times fairly uncritical overall, and definitely overblown. The poor shear strength pointed out by Tony is only amplified by its short shelf life once opened, and the resulting very high expense.

How many bottles, tubes, etc. full of expensive varieties of Pacer ACC and others have I thrown out over the years? How long did it take me to realize that the jelly-like stuff coming out of the already-opened "Super-Thin" bottle not only would not dry, but when it did, it would not hold an Athearn rivet in place over night? There is not a single word anywhere cautioning short shelf life and/ or what this might possibly mean to the gluing qualities.

I feel that most of us (not all) do not really do enough steady modeling at such a productive pace that we will work entirely through one of these containers. In this regard I respect Andy S' and others recommendations to simply purchase inexpensive thin ACC in the smallest individual containers- and then be comfortable in simply disposing at will after a week or so.

The suggestion to keep the opened ACC containers in the freezer is a good one, and I already keep a small variety of other expensive short-shelf-life materials in there (Dinner time. I hear the freezer door open. Then- "What... is THIS??"). However, will the moisture content be low enough that it would not still be an issue, despite the low temperature?

I rely on a variety of glues, each of which has its pluses and minuses. Since I have learned how to apply Barge cement in very tiny drops, I have actually been using it to substitute for ACC at selected times and situations- particularly with resin kits and when dealing with engineering plastics.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Tim O'Connor
 

long ago I noticed that soft exhalation on the ACC accelerates
the curing... there's a lot of moisture in your lungs! just don't
breathe it IN.

Tim O


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Gee, and I thought glue was something simple. A really big Texas
thank you to all who responded. There were a lot of good tips in
your posts and I shall copy and paste all into a file on this topic.

My next step will be to chuck all the present cyanoacrylate into the
trash because it is all several months or more old. Its off to the
store tomorrow.

There is no longer a model railroad hobby shop in town but there is
one for RC cars and planes so I'll visit there. The nearest model
railroad hobby shop is 275 miles away in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Has anyone bought any hobby supplies from Hobby Lobby or Michaels?
Hobby Lobby here in El Paso stocks some Woodland Scenics stuff.
Maybe they have other useful stuff.

And yes, the humidity was 14% (fourteen) this morning. I have seen
it as high as 50% and as low as 6% outdoors though. I have a tightly
sealed railroad room that is the most dust-free in the house and has
low humidity with very little variation all year around. Those
materials that swell or shrink with changes in humidity don't seem to
vary noticeably at all.

BTW, I just used five sheets of 3/4" plywood that I stored outside
since 1994. They were weathered but sound.

Gene Green


pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Gene Green in Rosa's Cantina wrote:
Has anyone bought any hobby supplies from Hobby Lobby or Michaels?
I use Michaels super glue. Cheap, couple of bucks for four 2 gram
tubes on a yellow & black blister card titled "Super Glue". Made by
Pacer Technology. Works for me, and it's pretty dry here in Boulder.

Tom Madden