Interpreting Copeland interchange data


jaley <jaley@...>
 

All (esp. Mssrs. Gilbert and Nelson),

I recently had the good fortune to be able to visit Baker Library
at Harvard University, where I got a look at the railroad interchange data
published by H. H. Copeland and Sons.

My focus was on UP and CRI&P interchange traffic in Kansas City.

The reports only show interchange of LOADED cars; this actually
turned out to be quite helpful:

I noted that CRI&P sent 13,071 loaded cars to the Wabash in 1952, but only
received 1,536. Wabash was the only RR with such a huge discrepancy. I
suspect that this indicates that CRI&P was sending cars eastward that
could not be re-loaded on the return trip: PFE reefers. Can anyone
confirm that the Wabash was the primary interchange partner for PFE
reefers in KC?

Secondly, for some reason, in 1953 the loaded traffic shifted from a
majority of eastbound cars (cars sent FROM CRI&P) to a marjority of
westbound cars. For most roads the shift was slight, but for the AT&SF,
there was a huge imbalance.

1952
RI -> SF: 9,851 cars
SF -> RI: 8,444 cars

1953
RI -> SF: 10,112 cars
SF -> RI: 16,944 cars!

Can anyone hazard a guess as to why this might have been the case?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

jaley wrote:

I recently had the good fortune to be able to visit Baker Library
at Harvard University, where I got a look at the railroad interchange data
published by H. H. Copeland and Sons.

My focus was on UP and CRI&P interchange traffic in Kansas City.

The reports only show interchange of LOADED cars; this actually
turned out to be quite helpful:

I noted that CRI&P sent 13,071 loaded cars to the Wabash in 1952, but only
received 1,536. Wabash was the only RR with such a huge discrepancy. I
suspect that this indicates that CRI&P was sending cars eastward that
could not be re-loaded on the return trip: PFE reefers. Can anyone
confirm that the Wabash was the primary interchange partner for PFE
reefers in KC?
Jeff,

To interchange cars with the Wabash in Kansas City meant that cars would not to go through the morasses of Chicago and St. Louis on their way east (or vice versa). Going through Chicago or St. Louis generally cost about a day in transit. Its quite possible that much of the traffic were eastbound PFE reefers which would, in turn, be interchanged with the ERIE in Huntington IN.

Probably neither the Rock Island or the ERIE liked the interchange with the Wabash since they had to share revenue with a third party, the Wabash. What forced their hand, however, were the brokers in the east who had purchased the loads, and wanted the cars as soon as possible.

Still 250 cars a week (13,071 divided by 52 weeks) does not seem that much. Will you get CRI&P interchange data for Tucumcari, St. Louis & Chicago? The latter two, I think, would have gotten a bigger piece of the "PFE pie" east than the Wabash route. For instance, the second example of Signature Press' PFE reefer routing to Philadelphia implies that the RI interchanged with the PRR at St. Louis via the TRRA.

I agree with your assumption that the lack of westbound loaded cars interchanged by the WAB to the RI indicates reefers being returned. Unlike the UP and ATSF, the Rock Island did not have much Merchandise Through Traffic westbound from Kansas City so few reefers would be loaded with merchandise westbound. Randy Williamson may want to comment on what, if any, westbound LCL traffic there was on CRI&P's Tucumcari Line from his spreadsheet of Interline LCL Routes in the files of the LCL Ops Modeling Yahoo Group.


Secondly, for some reason, in 1953 the loaded traffic shifted from a
majority of eastbound cars (cars sent FROM CRI&P) to a marjority of
westbound cars. For most roads the shift was slight, but for the AT&SF,
there was a huge imbalance.

1952
RI -> SF: 9,851 cars
SF -> RI: 8,444 cars

1953
RI -> SF: 10,112 cars
SF -> RI: 16,944 cars!

Can anyone hazard a guess as to why this might have been the case?
What happened to ATSF's other interchanges in Kansas City between 1952 & 1953? Did the ATSF switch preferences from one RR (MP?) to the CRI&P in the line to St. Louis?

Don't know if this is of much help, Tim Gilbert


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

jaley wrote:
Secondly, for some reason, in 1953 the loaded traffic shifted from a
majority of eastbound cars (cars sent FROM CRI&P) to a marjority of
westbound cars. For most roads the shift was slight, but for the
AT&SF, there was a huge imbalance.

1952
RI -> SF: 9,851 cars
SF -> RI: 8,444 cars

1953
RI -> SF: 10,112 cars
SF -> RI: 16,944 cars!

Can anyone hazard a guess as to why this might have been the case?
Two guesses that come to mind -- somebody opened an auto plant in the L.A.
basin and/or several rate changes that made the Santa Fe more appealing to
shippers. Facts... none in hand.

There is also RI stuff in the Copeland collection at Northwestern U. IIRC
1956 was the last year. Erie too.

Dave Nelson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
Still 250 cars a week (13,071 divided by 52 weeks) does not seem that
much. Will you get CRI&P interchange data for Tucumcari, St. Louis &
Chicago? The latter two, I think, would have gotten a bigger piece of
the "PFE pie" east than the Wabash route. For instance, the second
example of Signature Press' PFE reefer routing to Philadelphia implies
that the RI interchanged with the PRR at St. Louis via the TRRA.
There are a number of documents in surviving PFE files (now at CSRM) giving very strict instructions to "short haul" the Pennsy whenever possible, because their perishable service was so bad. Of course a shipper could countermand this, but the PFE instructions would certainly be opposed to Tim's example, giving PRR a haul from St. Louis to Philadelphia. I bet there was an alternative that was used, though off hand I don't know what it might be.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote:
Still 250 cars a week (13,071 divided by 52 weeks) does not seem that
much. Will you get CRI&P interchange data for Tucumcari, St. Louis &
Chicago? The latter two, I think, would have gotten a bigger piece of
the "PFE pie" east than the Wabash route. For instance, the second
example of Signature Press' PFE reefer routing to Philadelphia implies
that the RI interchanged with the PRR at St. Louis via the TRRA.
There are a number of documents in surviving PFE files (now at
CSRM) giving very strict instructions to "short haul" the Pennsy
whenever possible, because their perishable service was so bad. Of
course a shipper could countermand this, but the PFE instructions would
certainly be opposed to Tim's example, giving PRR a haul from St. Louis
to Philadelphia. I bet there was an alternative that was used, though
off hand I don't know what it might be.
Tony,

Well, as Signature Press and author, you are one-third responsible for putting in the Philadelphia PA Example into the PFE Book.

Alternatives to Philadelphia could be St. Louis - B&O. Another example could be ERIE-Newberry Jct.- RDG. The problem with both these end routings may be that the principal Philadelphia Market for Western Produce may have been on the PRR. The RDG had a Terminal Market, but I believe that market was more for local produce rather than western (or southern) goods. Cars brought by the B&O could terminate at the RDG market, but those reefers would be at the mercy of the PRR for transfer somewhere along the route. Maybe a Philly Phanatic could elaborate more.

Tim Gilbert


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

There is also RI stuff in the Copeland collection at Northwestern U. IIRC
1956 was the last year. Erie too.
When Earl Tuson was at Northwestern, he photocopied the Index Northwestern had of the Copeland Material. Earl then added them to the STMFC's Files titled "Copeland." The files appear to be more extensive than those at the Baker Library at Harvard. Another repository for Copeland data is the Barringer Collection at the old St. Louis Mercantile Association now located at the University of Missouri - St. Louis. I have heard of no one accessing Barringer's Copeland Files.

Tim Gilbert


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
Well, as Signature Press and author, you are one-third responsible for
putting in the Philadelphia PA Example into the PFE Book.
You will note, Tim, that the example showing Philadelphia was not written by me <g>. But I certainly did not say that PRR was never used for anything, only that the PFE tried not to.

Alternatives to Philadelphia could be St. Louis - B&O. Another example
could be ERIE-Newberry Jct.- RDG. The problem with both these end
routings may be that the principal Philadelphia Market for Western
Produce may have been on the PRR.
The PFE documents indicate that B&O was all right, and of course Erie No. 98 was legendary for consistent fast delivery. I don't know if the Erie transferred cuts to Reading for Philadelphia delivery. Presumably a particular produce market served by PRR could always be accessed by interchange at the terminal city.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>

Another repository for Copeland data is the Barringer Collection
at the old St. Louis Mercantile Association now located at the
University of Missouri - St. Louis. I have heard of no one accessing
Barringer's Copeland Files.


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Jeff Aley wrote:

Secondly, for some reason, in 1953 the loaded traffic shifted from a
majority of eastbound cars (cars sent FROM CRI&P) to a marjority of
westbound cars. For most roads the shift was slight, but for the
AT&SF, there was a huge imbalance.

1952
RI -> SF: 9,851 cars
SF -> RI: 8,444 cars

1953
RI -> SF: 10,112 cars
SF -> RI: 16,944 cars!

Can anyone hazard a guess as to why this might have been the case?
Jeff,

What makes you think that the SF->RI increase was westbound? As an alternative, I would suggest that the Santa Fe, for whatever reasons, changed their St. Louis interchange partner from MP or MKT to the CRI&P so the increase would be primarily eastbound. Do you have comparative pre and post 1952 Santa Fe interchange numbers with the MP, MKT, et. al.?

Tim Gilbert


Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

Jeff and Tim,

The Wabash handled 1706 cars of perishables out of Kansas City in 12
consecutive days from Nov. 2, 1950 through Nov. 14th. There is no
record of who the cars were received from, although I imagine most of
it came from the UP and RI, with a small amount from the Santa Fe and
other connecting roads. The Wabash usually ran four manifest trains
east from North Kansas City daily. 1-90 had a departure about
daybreak and ran to Decatur via Hannibal. 2-90 was a St Louis train
which ran to Moberly, 126 miles east of NKC, and then went down the
14th District to Luther Yard in St Louis. Nos., 82 and 98 were
Decatur trains via Hannibal. The numbers in parenthesis are the
nomber of perishable cars in first and second 90 that continued in
the trains out of Moberly.

1-90 2-90 82 98 TFX Total

11-02-1950 72 (74) 24 (21) 0 10 106
11-03 65 (64) 14 (14) 21 8 108
11-04 43 (43) 16 (21) 1 12 72
11-05 53 (56) 29 (30) 2 3 3 90
11-06 77 (77) 25 (27) 1 5 108
11-07 91 (91) 31 (31) 4 4 130
11-08 90 (88) 35 (31) 29 87 241
11-09 88 (89) 18 (15) 6 9 121
11-10 85 (85) 24 (21) 5 12 1 127
11-11 78 (79) 23 (23) 4 5 110
11-12 88 (88) 24 (21) 8 10 130
11-13 109 (104) 39 (37) 32 2 182
11-14 112 (112) 35 (35) 14 20 181

The few additions to trains at Moberly may have been bad orders that
had been repaired or cars from connecting roads at Des Moines and the
M&STL at Albia. The Wabash did a healthy interchange of perishable
loads with the ERIE at Huntington, IN, and a smaller amount with the
PRR at Logansport and Ft Wayne.

Chet French
Dixon, IL











--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

jaley wrote:

I recently had the good fortune to be able to visit Baker Library
at Harvard University, where I got a look at the railroad
interchange data
published by H. H. Copeland and Sons.

My focus was on UP and CRI&P interchange traffic in Kansas City.

The reports only show interchange of LOADED cars; this actually
turned out to be quite helpful:

I noted that CRI&P sent 13,071 loaded cars to the Wabash in 1952,
but only
received 1,536. Wabash was the only RR with such a huge
discrepancy. I
suspect that this indicates that CRI&P was sending cars eastward
that
could not be re-loaded on the return trip: PFE reefers. Can
anyone
confirm that the Wabash was the primary interchange partner for
PFE
reefers in KC?
Jeff,

To interchange cars with the Wabash in Kansas City meant that cars
would
not to go through the morasses of Chicago and St. Louis on their
way
east (or vice versa). Going through Chicago or St. Louis generally
cost
about a day in transit. Its quite possible that much of the traffic
were
eastbound PFE reefers which would, in turn, be interchanged with
the
ERIE in Huntington IN.

Probably neither the Rock Island or the ERIE liked the interchange
with
the Wabash since they had to share revenue with a third party, the
Wabash. What forced their hand, however, were the brokers in the
east
who had purchased the loads, and wanted the cars as soon as
possible.

Still 250 cars a week (13,071 divided by 52 weeks) does not seem
that
much. Will you get CRI&P interchange data for Tucumcari, St. Louis
&
Chicago? The latter two, I think, would have gotten a bigger piece
of
the "PFE pie" east than the Wabash route. For instance, the second
example of Signature Press' PFE reefer routing to Philadelphia
implies
that the RI interchanged with the PRR at St. Louis via the TRRA.

I agree with your assumption that the lack of westbound loaded cars
interchanged by the WAB to the RI indicates reefers being returned.
Unlike the UP and ATSF, the Rock Island did not have much
Merchandise
Through Traffic westbound from Kansas City so few reefers would be
loaded with merchandise westbound. Randy Williamson may want to
comment
on what, if any, westbound LCL traffic there was on CRI&P's
Tucumcari
Line from his spreadsheet of Interline LCL Routes in the files of
the
LCL Ops Modeling Yahoo Group.


Secondly, for some reason, in 1953 the loaded traffic shifted
from a
majority of eastbound cars (cars sent FROM CRI&P) to a marjority
of
westbound cars. For most roads the shift was slight, but for the
AT&SF,
there was a huge imbalance.

1952
RI -> SF: 9,851 cars
SF -> RI: 8,444 cars

1953
RI -> SF: 10,112 cars
SF -> RI: 16,944 cars!

Can anyone hazard a guess as to why this might have been the case?
What happened to ATSF's other interchanges in Kansas City between
1952 &
1953? Did the ATSF switch preferences from one RR (MP?) to the
CRI&P in
the line to St. Louis?

Don't know if this is of much help, Tim Gilbert


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Chet French wrote:
The Wabash did a healthy interchange of perishable
loads with the ERIE at Huntington, IN, and a smaller amount with the
PRR at Logansport and Ft Wayne.
Several PFE documents refer to the addition of Wabash cuts to Erie 98 at Huntington.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:

When Earl Tuson was at Northwestern, he photocopied the Index
Northwestern had of the Copeland Material. Earl then added them to
the STMFC's Files titled "Copeland." The files appear to be more
extensive than those at the Baker Library at Harvard. Another
repository for Copeland data is the Barringer Collection at the old
St. Louis Mercantile Association now located at the University of
Missouri - St. Louis. I have heard of no one accessing Barringer's
Copeland Files.
And a small collection of Copeland material at Stanford as well.

Dave Nelson


Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:


Presumably a particular produce market served by PRR could always be
accessed by interchange at the terminal city.
-----------------------------------------
As a person who was responsible for the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal's traffic at Baltimore, MD, for a couple of years, albeit a half decade after the scope of this list, I can advise that such an option would have been extremely expensive. The consignee would have been required to pay the Class Rate on the commodity for a local line-haul movement.

There was little or no reciprocal switching in most cities in the Northeast and in those where it existed, produce terminals, being railroad owned, were not open to switching. PRR had the lion's share of perishable traffic at Baltimore and Philadelphia, as it not only had the produce terminals, but most of the grocery chain warehouses as well. Remember, the produce terminal merchants sold to restaurants and "mom and pop" groceries, the big chains bought direct from the growers.

And Logansport, IN, was primarily a perishable gateway - most of the traffic PRR received from the Wabash there was perishables. Remember, PRR owned the Wabash at the time.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast


Greg Martin
 

All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business. As was mentioned the shippers controlled the traffic not the Railroads, the consignee "points the cannon" as we way even today in rail shipping unless it is on-line traffic.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:07:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interpreting Copeland interchange data


Anthony Thompson wrote:


Presumably a particular produce market served by PRR could always be
accessed by interchange at the terminal city.
-----------------------------------------
As a person who was responsible for the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal's
traffic at Baltimore, MD, for a couple of years, albeit a half decade after
the scope of this list, I can advise that such an option would have been
extremely expensive. The consignee would have been required to pay the Class
Rate on the commodity for a local line-haul movement.

There was little or no reciprocal switching in most cities in the Northeast
and in those where it existed, produce terminals, being railroad owned, were
not open to switching. PRR had the lion's share of perishable traffic at
Baltimore and Philadelphia, as it not only had the produce terminals, but
most of the grocery chain warehouses as well. Remember, the produce terminal
merchants sold to restaurants and "mom and pop" groceries, the big chains
bought direct from the growers.

And Logansport, IN, was primarily a perishable gateway - most of the traffic
PRR received from the Wabash there was perishables. Remember, PRR owned the
Wabash at the time.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast





Yahoo! Groups Links


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@... wrote:

Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim,

I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with Gregg Ames, the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in Chattanooga and found him very cooperative over the phone.

Tim Gilbert


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote:

When Earl Tuson was at Northwestern, he photocopied the Index
Northwestern had of the Copeland Material. Earl then added them to
the STMFC's Files titled "Copeland." The files appear to be more
extensive than those at the Baker Library at Harvard. Another
repository for Copeland data is the Barringer Collection at the old
St. Louis Mercantile Association now located at the University of
Missouri - St. Louis. I have heard of no one accessing Barringer's
Copeland Files.
And a small collection of Copeland material at Stanford as well.
Dave,

That's a new one to me and, perhaps, Tom Taber - who got me on the Copeland bandwagon over ten years ago. Do you know what particular items Stanford has?

Tim Gilbert


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

tgregmrtn@... wrote:

All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business. As was mentioned the shippers controlled the traffic not the Railroads, the consignee "points the cannon" as we way even today in rail shipping unless it is on-line traffic.
Greg,

Two questions :

1) How much of this perishable traffic came through Pot Yard from the southeast?
2) In which TKM was this article published?

Tim Gilbert


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 28, 11:52am, Dave Nelson wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Interpreting Copeland interchange data
Tim Gilbert wrote:

When Earl Tuson was at Northwestern, he photocopied the Index
Northwestern had of the Copeland Material. Earl then added them to
the STMFC's Files titled "Copeland." The files appear to be more
extensive than those at the Baker Library at Harvard. Another
repository for Copeland data is the Barringer Collection at the old
St. Louis Mercantile Association now located at the University of
Missouri - St. Louis. I have heard of no one accessing Barringer's
Copeland Files.
And a small collection of Copeland material at Stanford as well.

Dave Nelson

Dave,

Have you had a look at these? Are they really 1914 - 1916 as the
Stanford online catalog indicates?

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 28, 11:21am, Tim Gilbert wrote:

Still 250 cars a week (13,071 divided by 52 weeks) does not seem that
much. Will you get CRI&P interchange data for Tucumcari, St. Louis &
Chicago?
I hope I will be receiving the data. I typed the Kansas City data
into a spreadsheet while I was at the library. I have asked them to send
me a photocopy of the entire CRI&P Interchange Report, so I hope to have
the whole picture eventually.


What happened to ATSF's other interchanges in Kansas City between 1952 &
1953? Did the ATSF switch preferences from one RR (MP?) to the CRI&P in
the line to St. Louis?
I don't know. I only collected data on the CRI&P and the UP. In
the case of the UP, there was no Interchange Report in the Harvard
collection, so I had to attempt to re-create the report by examining those
of all the other roads that served Kansas City. In all of those cases, I
only noted the data for UP interchange at Kansas City; no other roads, nor
other locations.


Thanks for your insights. At the very least, I can be assured that the
major interchange partner for UP and RI reefers was the Wabash, as
evidenced by the imbalance in loaded cars interchanged "from" and "to" the
Wabash.

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 28, 2:28pm, Tim Gilbert wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interpreting Copeland interchange data
What makes you think that the SF->RI increase was westbound?
Er, stupidity? I had been so focused on the UP (which did not
extend east of KC at that time), that I did not think about eastbound
traffic given to the RI.
I am also under the impression that the RI line to St. Louis was
fairly lightly used, but that impression may be due to the traffic
declines of a later era.

Do you have comparative
pre and post 1952 Santa Fe interchange numbers with the MP, MKT, et.
al.?

No, I don't.

Regards,

-Jeff




--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533