Interpreting Copeland interchange data


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
Tony mentions various PFE memo's in CSRM with reference to "short hauling the PRR", once again the PFE didn't route cars, consignees did, they were simply a car management arm of three western carriers, they had no ability to make or negotiate rates (unlike the ATSF), they simply were a fleet management company.
Entirely true, as I've said; but their agents worked closely with shippers and would certainly have tried to "guide" shippers. The PFE car service manager I interviewed (Pete Holst), who had been a rep or supervised reps for years, said that probably not more than 10 or 20 percent of shippers insisted on doing their own routing.

They lived and died on per-diem rates of cars, which were all very negotiable. One thing I have learned being in the business and working with fleet management companies both private and railroad controlled, when pre-diem rates go down, fleet managers whine, snibble and write memos...So I take these notes with a grain of salt... 3^)
Greg, get a grip. We are talking pre-1960, when reefers were on mileage, not per diem; and per diem in those days was most certainly NOT negotiable. Don't generalize from present-day experience.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Greg Martin
 

Tony, Malcom and all,

The information (abrievated, read the entire article) Bruce provided was from my article in TKM and information gathered by Jim Singer (BRHS). The information contained in this article was an accumulation of data from ICC records on cars HANDLED by various railroads by region. Some are obviously origin traffic but also destination traffic, by STCC. The NYC information was provided to the ICC for the NYC SYSTEM roads, unlike the reporting from SP, TNO, SSW for example. It was from all areas not just east-west traffic. But the numbers are what they are.

Tony mentions various PFE memo's in CSRM with reference to "short hauling the PRR", once again the PFE didn't route cars, consignees did, they were simply a car management arm of three western carriers, they had no ability to make or negotiate rates (unlike the ATSF), they simply were a fleet management company. They lived and died on per-diem rates of cars, which were all very negotiable. One thing I have learned being in the business and working with fleet management companies both private and railroad controlled, when pre-diem rates go down, fleet managers whine, snibble and write memos...So I take these notes with a grain of salt... 3^)

The railroads hate per-diem, it is a cost accounting system to recoup the cost of a car's expense on a daily basis. With regard to pre-diem, two things never changed the miles to destination and the hours in a day, one thing that often changed was the amount a railroad was willing to pay a car owner, be it a private car or a railroad controlled car. That is when the whining and snibbling and memos always seemed to start... Reefers were among the highest(meat reefers where the higher of the two) in the industry and NO railroad wanted an expensive car on their road empty or loaded any longer than necessary as explained in the article...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:39:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data


Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.
And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.
I too wondered about Greg Martin's statistics. I would very much
doubt that PRR got long-haul perishables to the extent of Greg's
number, but of course would have handled a great deal of local
perishables. Their service area in major cities like Philadelphia would
of course get them a lot of carloads of not only western but
southeastern produce. I note he omits B&O as well as NYC from his
listing. And equalling the sum of NKP and Erie means what? Considering
the PRR total carloads annually, compared to Erie and NKP, it's obvious
PRR had a far smaller percentage of total traffic in perishables
relative to those two.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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Bruce Smith
 

On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
The data tabulated by Bruce look like carloads, and thus are
neither tons nor ton-miles.
Just to clarify - the data was provided by Greg Martin, who in turn got if from?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
Can you provide any proofs that the traffic was indeed "from the Mississippi
east" and not, say, "from Cleveland and/or Buffalo southeast"?

I don't doubt the tonnage... I doubt the ton miles.
The data tabulated by Bruce look like carloads, and thus are neither tons nor ton-miles.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

tgregmrtn@... wrote:
All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls
for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly
the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and
Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business.
Can you provide any proofs that the traffic was indeed "from the Mississippi
east" and not, say, "from Cleveland and/or Buffalo southeast"?

I don't doubt the tonnage... I doubt the ton miles.

Dave Nelson


Allen Rueter <allen@...>
 

Jeff,
The Wabash to Detroit would also be an option, no revenue split there.

Allen Rueter

On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 11:21:48AM -0500, Tim Gilbert wrote:
jaley wrote:
8<
My focus was on UP and CRI&P interchange traffic in Kansas City.

The reports only show interchange of LOADED cars; this actually
turned out to be quite helpful:

I noted that CRI&P sent 13,071 loaded cars to the Wabash in 1952, but only
received 1,536. Wabash was the only RR with such a huge discrepancy. I
suspect that this indicates that CRI&P was sending cars eastward that
could not be re-loaded on the return trip: PFE reefers. Can anyone
confirm that the Wabash was the primary interchange partner for PFE
reefers in KC?
Jeff,

--
------
Allen P Rueter o0000o Phone: 314/935-6429 email allen :) artsci.wustl.edu
.oO* there are at least three sides to every issue.


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jeff Aley notes:

"I.e.
since coal hoppers tend to return empty, one would see a large bias for
the loaded traffic in a particular direction."

Yes...depending upon the location. The N&W, however, had a significant amount of trackage in which loads were going in both directions. Coal of a particular type might be heading west from mines to the east of mines producing coal headed east. East of Roanoke, however, loads east, MTs west.

On the UP, most of the coal generated by UP originated in mines in Hannah and near Rock Springs to the west of Hannah. It would travel in both directions.

Mike Brock


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
And, is it not a mite lame to refer to "red team" thirty years after the
demise of the Penn Central? A good part of the problem was too many on both
"teams" thought their feces were odorless.
Gee, Gregg, still kinda sore, huh?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@...>

And, is it not a mite lame to refer to "red team" thirty years after the demise of the Penn Central?
Not at all, memories last. But in another thirty years you may be relieved of this burden as most of us are over 65 now.

> A good part of the problem was too many on both "teams" thought their feces were odorless.

And there is no need to to use offensive language about it



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

List,

First off, it was not only residents of New York and New England that ate food. Perishables for restaurents and independent grocers tended to go through produce terminals owned by the railroads to wholesalers specializing in specific fruits or vegetables from specific areas. In Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore, the PRR handled the vast majority of this traffic. In Cleveland, it was the NKP. In New York City it was the New Haven, and the NYC had the only all rail connection. In Newark, NJ, it was the PRR.

B&O must have had some places, because one of my fondest memories is of watching a B&O "Bix Six" accelerate 75 reefers out of Willard, OH, at dawn in August 1957.

No mention has been made of Rio Grande Valley produce, which the MP handled with ART cars while SP used PFE.

And, is it not a mite lame to refer to "red team" thirty years after the demise of the Penn Central? A good part of the problem was too many on both "teams" thought their feces were odorless.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

-----
Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.
And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Cant stand it any more.

Not Barringer

Barriger.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Larry Kline
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:31 AM
To: STMFC list
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

timboconnor@... wrote:
Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered
with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim Gilbert replied:
Tim,
I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with
Gregg Ames, the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in
Chattanooga and found him very cooperative over the phone.
Tim Gilbert

I haven't been there either but Greg Ames has helped me both
while he was at the NMRA library and by phone since he went
to the Barringer Library. The Barringer Library has a nice RR
research guide online at:
http://www.umsl.edu/barriger/bguides/rrguide/rrguide.htm
I believe that Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider have made extensive
use of the ACF collection there.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA




Yahoo! Groups Links






jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 9:11pm, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data
This is very helpful. The data I have shows that in 1947, UP
sent 38,576 loaded cars to the WAB at KC, and in 1954 that increased to
54,487
cars.

In 1946, the RI sent 13,328 cars to the WAB at KC. In 1951, it
was 10,781 cars, and in 1953 it was 14,369.
===========
Anything in all of that data about the MILW share. I know that in the
early 60's the daily train from KC to Chicago was mostly western
perishables.
In 1952, the UP gave 6,524 loaded cars to the CMStP&P, and received 3,192
loaded cars. Some of these may have been reefers; I'd guess about 3,000
of them were reefers.

In 1952, the CRI&P gave 6,513 loaded cars to the CMStP&P, and received
3,835 loaded cars. Once again, I'd suspect around 3,000 of those were
reefers. This, however, is highly counter-intuitive, since the CRI&P
served Chicago directly!

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Randy Williamson
 

At 03:39 PM 3/1/2006, you wrote:
I too wondered about Greg Martin's statistics. I would very much
doubt that PRR got long-haul perishables to the extent of Greg's
number, but of course would have handled a great deal of local
perishables. Their service area in major cities like Philadelphia would
of course get them a lot of carloads of not only western but
southeastern produce. I note he omits B&O as well as NYC from his
listing. And equalling the sum of NKP and Erie means what? Considering
the PRR total carloads annually, compared to Erie and NKP, it's obvious
PRR had a far smaller percentage of total traffic in perishables
relative to those two.

In 1955, Pennsy was receiving 60,000 carloads annually of perishables
from the Indiana Harbor Belt at Dolton. That's not too shabby.

Randy


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.
And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.
I too wondered about Greg Martin's statistics. I would very much doubt that PRR got long-haul perishables to the extent of Greg's number, but of course would have handled a great deal of local perishables. Their service area in major cities like Philadelphia would of course get them a lot of carloads of not only western but southeastern produce. I note he omits B&O as well as NYC from his listing. And equalling the sum of NKP and Erie means what? Considering the PRR total carloads annually, compared to Erie and NKP, it's obvious PRR had a far smaller percentage of total traffic in perishables relative to those two.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

This is very helpful. The data I have shows that in 1947, UP
sent 38,576 loaded cars to the WAB at KC, and in 1954 that increased to
54,487
cars.

In 1946, the RI sent 13,328 cars to the WAB at KC. In 1951, it
was 10,781 cars, and in 1953 it was 14,369.
===========
Anything in all of that data about the MILW share. I know that in the
early 60's the daily train from KC to Chicago was mostly western
perishables.


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

tgregmrtn@... wrote:

All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls
for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly
the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and
Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business.

==============

The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.

And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

timboconnor@... wrote:

Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim,
I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with Gregg
Ames, the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in Chattanooga and
found him very cooperative over the phone.
===============

Who's Barriger ? Do you mean John Barriger's collection ?


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 28, 6:19pm, Tony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interpreting Copeland interchange data
Jeff Aley wrote:
      If I take the 1951 RI data + the 1947 UP data, I get 949 cars
per
week.  Of course, that's ALL loaded cars, not just reefers.  Perhaps
I
should only count the difference between the "TO" and "FROM"
interchanged
loads as the reefers?
I'm sure RI also handled westward empty reefers on the Golden State
route, destined to southern California via Tucson.

Tony,

I am also sure that RI handled westward empties. But the
interchange reports are for loaded cars only.

So, taking the 1952 Kansas City RI <--> WAB example, we have:
LOADED CARS
TO WAB......FROM WAB
13,071......1,536.

My hypothesis is that 1,536 of the cars interchanged (both TO and
FROM) are "normal" or "generic" traffic, whereas the (13,071 - 1,536 = )
11,535 excess cars sent TO the Wabash were probably reefers, which came
back empty and are therefore not represented in the "FROM" data.

I would further hypothesize that an analagous situation would
apply if one were to analyze the traffic of a coal-hauling road. I.e.
since coal hoppers tend to return empty, one would see a large bias for
the loaded traffic in a particular direction.

Regards,

-Jeff



--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Larry Kline
 

timboconnor@... wrote:
Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim Gilbert replied:
Tim,
I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with Gregg Ames,
the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in Chattanooga and found
him very cooperative over the phone.
Tim Gilbert

I haven't been there either but Greg Ames has helped me both while he was at the NMRA library and by phone since he went to the Barringer Library. The Barringer Library has a nice RR research guide online at:
http://www.umsl.edu/barriger/bguides/rrguide/rrguide.htm
I believe that Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider have made extensive use of the ACF collection there.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Tony Thompson
 

Jeff Aley wrote:
      If I take the 1951 RI data + the 1947 UP data, I get 949 cars
per
week.  Of course, that's ALL loaded cars, not just reefers.  Perhaps I
should only count the difference between the "TO" and "FROM"
interchanged
loads as the reefers?
I'm sure RI also handled westward empty reefers on the Golden State
route, destined to southern California via Tucson.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history