PRR, standards, etc


Tim O'Connor
 

I would LOVE to see the statisticians produce a ton-mile-map of the
United States showing how many ton-miles were produced in say
the western 1/3, middle 1/3 and eastern 1/3 of the country from 1930
to 1970. I think many modelers are not aware of the extent of the
decline of ton-miles in the eastern U.S. that took place after WWII
and the corresponding increase in ton-miles in the west. A lot of hay
is made of the terrific railroads out west and the "bad management"
of the PRR, but often they fail to take into account the dire straits
that the eastern railroads found themselves in, caught between very
dramatic traffic declines (and consequent redundant physical assets)
and dramatically rising costs. Were it not for the boom economy of
the west and south, and the relatively low density of rail lines, and
the nice long distances, the western railroads would have suffered
the same fate as the PRR et al. And in fact, they were headed that
way until the Clean Air Act and China trade saved their hides! There
are more important things than standards/mechanical departments.

One thing has remained true all these years: Coal is King.

But of course, that's all in future. :-)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...>

In the 1960's, the CB&Q Havelock shops in Lincoln were evaluated by
consultants to see if Burlington should continue to build their own
freight cars or buy from builders. The consultants concluded that
the CB&Q had the lowest construction costs in the industry, lower
than the builders.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
One thing has remained true all these years: Coal is King.

But of course, that's all in future. :-)
Far into the future, Tim, more than 45 years forward, intermodal would eclipse coal. So if on this list we knew anything about the future, we would say "coal WAS king."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

Coal generates far more ton-miles than any other type of
traffic, and always has. That's what I meant. It generates
more revenue in the eastern U.S. than intermodal does,
but just barely.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
One thing has remained true all these years: Coal is King.

But of course, that's all in future. :-)
Far into the future, Tim, more than 45 years forward, intermodal
would eclipse coal. So if on this list we knew anything about the
future, we would say "coal WAS king."
Tony Thompson


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@... wrote:

I would LOVE to see the statisticians produce a ton-mile-map of the
United States showing how many ton-miles were produced in say
the western 1/3, middle 1/3 and eastern 1/3 of the country from 1930
to 1970.
Tim,

The data for the Eastern, Southern & Western Districts of the US is readily available from the ICC's Blue Books albeit not as maps. I have most of them from 1940-1956 (ex. 1941, 1945, 1948, & 1953). It would also be interesting to compare them with Loaded Car Miles which would limit the skewing of the Ton Miles by Coal.

Its just a matter of collecting the data which takes time. When I get the chance, I will forward the raw 1940-1956 data to the Group.

After 1956, some one else will have to get the data. I know the Walker Transportation Collection in, for you, nearby Beverly MA, has copies of the 19656-1966 Blue Books. I believe the major business school libraries have copies as does the National Railroad Historical Society's Library in Philadelphia. The proper title of the Blue Books was the "Annual Report for the Statistics of Railways in the United States" until at least 1956; then it was changed to the Transportation Statistics of the US. The publisher of these Annuals was the ICC's Bureau of Transport Economics and Statistics.

I think many modelers are not aware of the extent of the
decline of ton-miles in the eastern U.S. that took place after WWII
and the corresponding increase in ton-miles in the west.
(snip)

There
are more important things than standards/mechanical departments.
A good book about railroad operations in the US between 1947 and 1972 is Kent Healy's PERFORMANCE OF RAILROADS SINCE WW II (1985). It is available used from Amazon for $45.00. A library loaner might be cheaper. I bought my copy at a Train Show about ten years ago for 10 bucks.

Tim Gilbert


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 9, 5:57pm, Tim Gilbert wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR, standards, etc
timboconnor@... wrote:

I would LOVE to see the statisticians produce a ton-mile-map of the
United States showing how many ton-miles were produced in say
the western 1/3, middle 1/3 and eastern 1/3 of the country from 1930
to 1970.
Tim,

The Copeland collection in Harvard's Baker library has the
Ton-Mile maps for most Class 1 RR's. (There are far more Ton-Mile maps
than there are Interchange reports, to my dismay!)
Unfortunately, I am not aware of a single map for ALL railroads,
so you'll have to piece things together from the various RR's (easier to
do out west, where there were few lines; much harder back east where there
were many).

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


armprem
 

If coal is king, why are we importing it from South Africa and in Russian ships no less?I thought we had enough coal to last fifty years.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR, standards, etc


Tim O'Connor wrote:
One thing has remained true all these years: Coal is King.

But of course, that's all in future. :-)
Far into the future, Tim, more than 45 years forward, intermodal
would eclipse coal. So if on this list we knew anything about the
future, we would say "coal WAS king."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links








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Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Armand,

We have enough coal to last well more than 50 years, more like several hundred at current consumption rates.

As to South African coal being burned in Florida, it all comes down to the delivered price per BTU. It costs less to move coal in Russian ships from South Africa to Florida than it costs to move it from US Mines to Florida by barge-ship and or unit trains. On PRB coal, the cheapest transportation might be unit train to the Mississippi, barge to New Orleans thence ship, but transferring the coal between modes costs a couple of dollars a ton each time it is done.

There are fewer transfers all the way from South Africa.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

-----------------------
Armand Premo asked:

If coal is king, why are we importing it from South Africa and in
Russian ships no less?I thought we had enough coal to last fifty
years.


armprem
 

Gregg,It is my understanding that it is transfered to as many as five different RRs before it reaches its final destination.How can each road make any profit from such a short haul?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR, standards, etc


Armand,

We have enough coal to last well more than 50 years, more like several
hundred at current consumption rates.

As to South African coal being burned in Florida, it all comes down to the
delivered price per BTU. It costs less to move coal in Russian ships from
South Africa to Florida than it costs to move it from US Mines to Florida by
barge-ship and or unit trains. On PRB coal, the cheapest transportation
might be unit train to the Mississippi, barge to New Orleans thence ship,
but transferring the coal between modes costs a couple of dollars a ton each
time it is done.

There are fewer transfers all the way from South Africa.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

-----------------------
Armand Premo asked:

If coal is king, why are we importing it from South Africa and in
Russian ships no less?I thought we had enough coal to last fifty
years.





Yahoo! Groups Links









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Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Armand,

You don't mention specifics, but on unit train moves, there are minimal terminal costs, and coal often moves in shipper supplied cars that the railroads don't pay mileage or car hire on. The AN definitely made money on a 96 mile coal haul, although I could rework the figures to show a loss if the shipper complained the rate was too high! But, that's a whole 'nother subject...

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast


----------
Armand Premo writes:

Gregg,It is my understanding that it is transfered to as many as five
different RRs before it reaches its final destination.How can each road make
any profit from such a short haul?


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Coal generates far more ton-miles than any other type of
traffic, and always has. That's what I meant.
As I presume you realize, ton-miles ain't dollars. When PFE was providing the largest single revenue stream to SP and UP in the 1950s, far above any other traffic category, it sure wasn't because of larger ton-miles.

It generates
more revenue in the eastern U.S. than intermodal does,
but just barely.
Read the new Trains magazine. Of course, not everyone can read a magazine published decades into the future <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


ljack70117@...
 

The US of A has more oil
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

On Mar 9, 2006, at 7:13 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Armand,

We have enough coal to last well more than 50 years, more like several
hundred at current consumption rates.

As to South African coal being burned in Florida, it all comes down to the
delivered price per BTU. It costs less to move coal in Russian ships from
South Africa to Florida than it costs to move it from US Mines to Florida by
barge-ship and or unit trains. On PRB coal, the cheapest transportation
might be unit train to the Mississippi, barge to New Orleans thence ship,
but transferring the coal between modes costs a couple of dollars a ton each
time it is done.

There are fewer transfers all the way from South Africa.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

-----------------------
Armand Premo asked:

If coal is king, why are we importing it from South Africa and in
Russian ships no less?I thought we had enough coal to last fifty
years.





Yahoo! Groups Links







armprem
 

Thanks Gregg.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR, standards, etc


Armand,

You don't mention specifics, but on unit train moves, there are minimal
terminal costs, and coal often moves in shipper supplied cars that the
railroads don't pay mileage or car hire on. The AN definitely made money on
a 96 mile coal haul, although I could rework the figures to show a loss if
the shipper complained the rate was too high! But, that's a whole 'nother
subject...

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast


----------
Armand Premo writes:

Gregg,It is my understanding that it is transfered to as many as five
different RRs before it reaches its final destination.How can each road
make
any profit from such a short haul?





Yahoo! Groups Links








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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/271 - Release Date: 2/28/2006


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson notes:


Read the new Trains magazine. Of course, not everyone can read a
magazine published decades into the future <g>.
Quite true. I seriously doubt that diesels will continue to be in favor...say, past 1965. We know that UP has been using turbines successfully although it is my opinion that such machines are only economical because of their ability to burn "used oil". Bunker "C" or some sort of thing. Besides, the damned things are too loud. UP has stored its modern steam engines as I write this, but I am certain that with the high cost of new diesels, surely enlightened UP mgt will put them back to work in the 60's. Of course, one can never tell. People come and go and new UP mgt might not be so enlightened. Heck, they might even consider merging with the SP again. Yeah...I know. Why do that when everything SP moves into the midwest has to go on UP tracks? Besides, UP has enough trouble with Califorians down in the LA area. Next thing we hear...UP will try to buy the WP to get into the Feather River Canyon. That's about as possible as...well...Norfolk & Western buying...say, the NKP or Wabash. Or...laughter ensues...the Pennsy joining with the NYC. No...it's not good to speculate about the future.

Mike Brock


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony T wrote

It generates more revenue in the eastern U.S. than intermodal does,
but just barely.
Read the new Trains magazine.
Thanks but I prefer to read the official SEC 10k statements that
each public corporation publishes, and which are available online.
They contain lots of nice traffic, revenue and performance data.

Tim O.


Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff Aley wrote

Tim,
The Copeland collection in Harvard's Baker library has the
Ton-Mile maps for most Class 1 RR's. (There are far more Ton-Mile maps
than there are Interchange reports, to my dismay!)
Thanks, I should get over there some weekend... What do the maps look
like? Just bar graphs superimposed on geography, or thick lines (so you
have to multiply the line thickness times its length to calculate the
ton-miles???)

Tim