Numbers/percentages of important box car types


aikenair@...
 

What is your time frame?

Don Barnes


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Hi folks;



I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.



ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332



For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4, and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).



What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?



I am looking forward to a healthy debate!



Regards,



Elden Gatwood


James Fellows
 

Eldon,

What time frame are you looking at? Alo, no mention of anything other then steel sided cars. Neat info.

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types


Hi folks;

I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.

ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332

For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4, and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

I am looking forward to a healthy debate!

Regards,

Elden Gatwood


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Jim;
Those are numbers for total production of those types, so they could be
generally (with some small rate of attrition applied) applied to any
timeframe after the finish of production (which I do not know with certainty,
but only the PS-1's would be 50's or later, right?).

My timeframe is early 60's, but the car numbers would apply to whatever
number you come up with for your timeframe. Obviously, total box car numbers
were fewer in my timeframe than most of you, as the sixties were a period of
mass scrapings of older types like X29's and wooden cars.

I'd be interested to see what the percentages of wooden cars were, SS and DS,
and individual "signature" cars, for different timeframes.

Take care,

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of James
Fellows
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:22 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types

Eldon,

What time frame are you looking at? Alo, no mention of anything other then
steel sided cars. Neat info.

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types


Hi folks;

I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on
our
layouts.

ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332

For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4,
and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were
<1%
by my timeframe).

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

I am looking forward to a healthy debate!

Regards,

Elden Gatwood

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

The PRR X29 (~28,000 cars in 1950) and X31 (~8,000 cars in 1950) cars for
starters.

Dave Nelson


Doug Brown <g.brown1@...>
 

Eldon, another 9-10% of the total were either PRR X29 or NYC USRA-derivative
steel box cars. USRA DS (25000) and SS (25000) boxcars and rebuilds thereof
totaled as much as 8.2%. Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 1:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types



Hi folks;

I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.

ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332

For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4,
and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

I am looking forward to a healthy debate!

Regards,

Elden Gatwood


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Elden,

607,000 boxcars seems an awfully low total for Boxcars - at least through 1960. The 1960 ICC Annual Report on Statistics for US Railways (which Jim Singer & Greg Martin finally discovered in the June 2006 KEYSTONE MODELER, but can be abbreviated to "the Blue Books") reported that there were 637,829 General Service Boxcars (XM, LC, XI, XME, VA, VM & VS) and 54,900 Special Service Boxcars (XAP, XAR, XML, XMR, XT) owned by Class I RR's on December 31, 1960. On Dec. 31, 1955, it was 661,194 general service and 57,756 special service - There were over a million boxcars owned in the 1920's. Better Operating Practices cut this to about 720-730,000 by 1941 - a level which was maintained approximately until 1959-1960.

What is missing from your totals are the Boxcars built to the 1923 Design dimension (8' 7" IH) including the X29; wood sheathed cars either single or double sheathed which still comprised about 18% of the US Class I Boxcar fleet on 12/31/1954 - down from 29% in 1950, 48% in 1945 & 62% in 1940; proprietary boxcars designs developed by individual RR's like the PRR X31's. This last category might include rebuilds, too.

So please be more specific about the date of your survey. Also, you used many sources - what were they?

Tim Gilbert


Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.

ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332

For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4, and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

I am looking forward to a healthy debate!

Regards,

Elden Gatwood


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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Elden,

Below in roughly five year increments are US Class I Boxcars owned as per the material of their underframe and sheathing. Cars listed in the Steel Underframe column could be single or double sheathed (wood) while most of those in the "Other" column had Wood or Composite (Steel Center Sills) Underframes (most had truss rods), but could be assumed had wood single or double sheathing. All-Steel means a SUF with Steel Sheathing.

Total Steel SUF Other
Year 000's % Tot 000's % 000's % 000's %
1921 1,038 100.0% 29 3.2% 533 51.4% 471 45.4%
1925 1,078 100.0% 68 6.3% 664 61.6% 345 32.0%
1930 1,060 100.0% 125 11.8% 735 69.4% 200 18.8%
1935 809 100.0% 146 18.0% 584 72.2% 79 9.8%
1940 705 100.0% 268 37.9% 394 55.8% 44 6.2%
1945 742 100.0% 386 52.1% 329 44.5% 26 3.5%
1950 715 100.0% 507 70.8% 203 28.5% 5 0.7%
1954 720 100.0% 589 81.8% 129 18.0% 1 0.2%

The Blue Book's Table #27 was discontinued after 1954.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Jim;
Those are numbers for total production of those types, so they could be
generally (with some small rate of attrition applied) applied to any
timeframe after the finish of production (which I do not know with certainty,
but only the PS-1's would be 50's or later, right?).

My timeframe is early 60's, but the car numbers would apply to whatever
number you come up with for your timeframe. Obviously, total box car numbers
were fewer in my timeframe than most of you, as the sixties were a period of
mass scrapings of older types like X29's and wooden cars.

I'd be interested to see what the percentages of wooden cars were, SS and DS,
and individual "signature" cars, for different timeframes.


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Doug,

When the X29's and NYC USRA derivatives as well as the USRA single & double sheathed boxcars were built between 1919 and 1931, the total boxcars owned by US Class I Roads exceeded 1,000,000 cars in each year.

Tim Gilbert

Doug Brown wrote:

Eldon, another 9-10% of the total were either PRR X29 or NYC USRA-derivative
steel box cars. USRA DS (25000) and SS (25000) boxcars and rebuilds thereof
totaled as much as 8.2%. Doug


armprem
 

Elden,Maybe I missed something,but IMHO there are too many variables
when selecting cars for one's layout.The location is important as are the
connecting roads.The season will have some influence on traffic
patterns.That said,there are other things one should consider if you are
just using national percentages.There are others out there who have a better
handle on the subject than I do.Just thought I would add a little grist to
the mill.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types


Hi folks;



I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.



ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332



For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4,
and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).



What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?



I am looking forward to a healthy debate!



Regards,



Elden Gatwood











Yahoo! Groups Links








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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 12, 2006, at 3:30 PM, armand wrote:

Elden,Maybe I missed something,but IMHO there are too many variables
when selecting cars for one's layout.The location is important as are the
connecting roads.
Armand,

Here we go again... That's a falsehood perpetrated by model railroaders. The facts seem to show pretty clearly that with a very few special exceptions regionality (location) and connecting railroads have NOTHING to do with populations of boxcars. Connecting railroads may affect specific train makes-up (like Mike's favorite example the espee forwarder) but those are usually "balanced translocations", as we geneticists call them.

The season will have some influence on traffic
patterns.
This may be true for some types of cars, but generally not for boxcars (with perhaps the exception of the grain rush). Even for cars where you think there would be strong seasonality, there were significant alternative uses that may help to blunt the actual variability

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Armand,

The first variable of any layout is what commodities should be modeled as hauled. This should provide the means to develop what should be the layout's freight car type mix - e.g. boxcars vs. hoppers vs. gons vs. etc..

Since Elden has chosen boxcars, let's discuss the operating characteristics of them.

The wide variety of commodities a boxcar could carry reduced the percentage of loaded car miles because most boxcars could be reloaded without being returned to their home road empty. This reloading was in compliance with Car Service Rule #1 although this rule was followed because, often, the loading road did not have a choice because there were no home road boxcars available for loading.

Car Service Rules to route loaded cars either towards their home road were frequently ignored either by the shipper or by the originating road (or both).

The result of these operating characteristics were that the distribution of boxcars was wide spread in, at least, two ways: -

1) The distribution of ownership of boxcars was roughly in proportion with the percentage that cars owned by a railroad of the total US Class I Boxcar Fleet subject to three variables: - A) There was a higher proportion of Home Road Boxcars on Line than that of the percentage of the National Boxcar Fleet because home roads used home road boxcars were kept as a strategic reserve to the extent possible; B) There could be a higher percentage of boxcars owned by connecting roads; C) Because of Customs restrictions, the flow of Canadian-owned boxcars in the US were not as proportional as those boxcars owned by US RR's. This distribution of ownership has been shown in the numerous wheel reports and other reports which I have parsed. It is because of the operating characteristics described above.

2) Among boxcar designs (e.g. USRA, 1923, 1932, 1937, 1944, PS-1, etc.), the distribution should be in proportion with the percentage of these designs of the total boxcar fleet, but it appears that a higher percentage of newer designs would be off road than those of the older designs. Some of this may be due to the repair of boxcars - also, more of the older boxcars might have been kept in a home road's strategic reserve. This is an observation of mine, and cannot be proven with any parsing that I have done.

Compared to hoppers, or gons, boxcars have considerably less variables.

Tim Gilbert

armand wrote:

Elden,Maybe I missed something,but IMHO there are too many variables
when selecting cars for one's layout.The location is important as are the
connecting roads.The season will have some influence on traffic
patterns.That said,there are other things one should consider if you are
just using national percentages.There are others out there who have a better
handle on the subject than I do.Just thought I would add a little grist to
the mill.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <Elden.J.Gatwood@... <mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil>>
To: <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types

Hi folks;

I did a little addition over the weekend, to see if I could figure out the
actual numbers and percentages of certain box car types we all find
interesting. I used many of the sources you all have developed. I thought
you might find the results of interest. I would imagine many of us might
have over-, or under-representation of one or more of these car types on our
layouts.

ARA '32 - 14,180

AAR '37 - 89,578

Modified AAR '37 (5/5 Dread Ends) - 43,565

AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" (w/4/4 IDEs) - 73,397

PS-1 40' - 75,070

PS-1 50' - 20,332

For my time period, this works out to approx. 2.3, 14.8, 7.2, 12.1, 12.4,
and
3.4% of the entire fleet of U.S. boxcars in service (approx. 607,000 in my
timeframe), or approx. 52% of the total (retirements of these types were <1%
by my timeframe).

What other important box car types, both numerically and in terms of other
significance, are missing from this list?

I am looking forward to a healthy debate!

Regards,

Elden Gatwood


Yahoo! Groups Links

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No virus found in this incoming message.
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armprem
 

Bruce ,when you have examined as many switchlists as I have you might
think differently.Review my statement if you will.I am prepared to document
my statement for the road I model.National statistics do not apply for the
short period we model.We are not talking about real railroads, but model
railroads.There is no way we could have 10,000 box cars.There are not many
modelers who own three hundred cars.If we were to apply national averages to
our own railroads the mix would be different if we modeled a west coast road
as opposed to a deep south or midwest railroad.There is no question that I
own more NYC and PRR cars than UP or SP because that is what the switchlists
show over a several year period.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Numbers/percentages of important box car types



On Jun 12, 2006, at 3:30 PM, armand wrote:

Elden,Maybe I missed something,but IMHO there are too many
variables
when selecting cars for one's layout.The location is important as
are the
connecting roads.
Armand,

Here we go again... That's a falsehood perpetrated by model
railroaders. The facts seem to show pretty clearly that with a very
few special exceptions regionality (location) and connecting
railroads have NOTHING to do with populations of boxcars. Connecting
railroads may affect specific train makes-up (like Mike's favorite
example the espee forwarder) but those are usually "balanced
translocations", as we geneticists call them.

The season will have some influence on traffic
patterns.
This may be true for some types of cars, but generally not for
boxcars (with perhaps the exception of the grain rush). Even for cars
where you think there would be strong seasonality, there were
significant alternative uses that may help to blunt the actual
variability

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

Nice data, Eldon!

I would like to echo your statement that "I'd be interested to see
what the percentages of wooden cars were, SS and DS". I'm modeling
Sherman Hill in September, 1949, but national or regional ratios
within a few years of that date would be useful. Table 27 in the
ICC Statistics of Railways for 1949 lists 488,871 steel box cars and
223,188 box cars with steel underframes, but it doesn't break them
down into SS vs. DS. Were they about 50/50, or were there more of
one than the other? Even rough estimates would help.

Thanks for whatever help anyone can give.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<Elden.J.Gatwood@...> wrote:

Jim;
Those are numbers for total production of those types, so they
could be
generally (with some small rate of attrition applied) applied to
any
timeframe after the finish of production (which I do not know with
certainty,
but only the PS-1's would be 50's or later, right?).

My timeframe is early 60's, but the car numbers would apply to
whatever
number you come up with for your timeframe. Obviously, total box
car numbers
were fewer in my timeframe than most of you, as the sixties were a
period of
mass scrapings of older types like X29's and wooden cars.

I'd be interested to see what the percentages of wooden cars were,
SS and DS,
and individual "signature" cars, for different timeframes.

Take care,

Elden


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

The percentages of the National Boxcar Fleet the PRR, NYC, UP and SP Pacific Lines owned between 1940 and 1960 were:

Boxcars 1940 1944 1947 1950 1955 1960
PRR 10.9% 10.6% 10.4% 9.0% 9.2% 8.0%
NYC 8.3% 8.4% 8.8% 9.5% 8.6% 7.3%
ATSF 4.5% 4.6% 4.7% 5.0% 5.4% 5.5%
UP 3.6% 3.7% 3.6% 3.6% 3.8% 3.8%
SP-Pac 2.9% 3.3% 3.9% 4.0% 4.8% 4.8%

This supports your having more PRR and NYC boxcars than UP and SP - Pacific Lines' boxcars.

Tim Gilbert

Armand Premo wrote:

Bruce ,when you have examined as many switchlists as I have you might
think differently.Review my statement if you will.I am prepared to document
my statement for the road I model.National statistics do not apply for the
short period we model.We are not talking about real railroads, but model
railroads.There is no way we could have 10,000 box cars.There are not many
modelers who own three hundred cars.If we were to apply national averages to
our own railroads the mix would be different if we modeled a west coast road
as opposed to a deep south or midwest railroad.There is no question that I
own more NYC and PRR cars than UP or SP because that is what the switchlists
show over a several year period.Armand Premo





Bruce Smith
 

On Mon, June 12, 2006 6:56 pm, armand wrote:
Bruce ,when you have examined as many switchlists as I have you might
think differently.Review my statement if you will.I am prepared to
document
my statement for the road I model.
Please do. I would love to see the numbers that you have.

National statistics do not apply for the
short period we model.We are not talking about real railroads, but model
railroads.There is no way we could have 10,000 box cars.There are not many
modelers who own three hundred cars.If we were to apply national averages
to our own railroads the mix would be different if we modeled a west coast
road as opposed to a deep south or midwest railroad.
I'm planning on 500 freight cars. I've designed a fleet of approximately
150 boxcars that fairly closely mimics the national averages for road
names (with the exception of the home road PRR, which is higher of
course). In many cases, such as with the B&O and NYC, I have been able to
look at their fleet numbers and design the components so that they not
only agree with the national average for that road, but are subdivided
correctly with respect to car types within a given fleet. The fun thing
about that is that it shows you things like the percentage of B&O
wagontops was really pretty low - two will do it for me. But I need a
number of other B&O boxcars.

There is no question that I
own more NYC and PRR cars than UP or SP because that is what the
switchlists
show over a several year period.
Um, that's not a great example, since as Tim pointed out, that's in
agreement with the national average <G>. In addition, you may not have
fully considered the bias of switch lists which do not represent the
population on-line but rather the population being switched by the local
or yard crews. While a switch list might be accurate for the terminus of
a branch line served only by that local, the switch lists for Columbia PA
would be a gross misrepresentation of the cars that passed that point on
the PRR and Reading.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn AL


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

All;

Although I hadn't intended that this discussion go down this road, I will
make the following observations based on a lot of recent analysis of trains
and photos in my area, the PRR in other areas, and those of other roads' yard
shots, looking at roads, car types, loads, and specific cars. Obviously, the
general statement of the number of different car types is only useful in a
specific context if one were to know if one's area of interest was
representative of the national fleet, or vice versa.

.... often, the loading road did not have a choice because there
were no home road boxcars available for loading.

This appears to be true in my area of interest, too.

Car Service Rules to route loaded cars either towards their home road
were frequently ignored either by the shipper or by the originating road
(or both).

That also appears to be true, as ones sees cars that should be going back
home going the opposite direction, and cars being "diverted" based on local
need.

... a higher percentage of newer designs would be off road than those of the
older designs. Some of this may be due to the repair of boxcars - also, more
of the older boxcars might have been kept in a home road's strategic
reserve. This is an observation of mine, and cannot be proven with any
parsing that I have done.

Tim, that is a very interesting, and important statement you made, which I
also believe to be true. My area of interest shows a greater percentage of
older cars than the overall fleet (a far greater percentage of X29s, X31As,
and older gondolas, than X50s, X51s, X55s, X58s, X59s and X60s). I suspect
that the industries represented got more than their share of older, crummy
cars, than the newer ones. I would also suspect that if one were modeling
something high value, like the auto industry, one would see a far greater
percentage of new cars, and dedicated car types and classes.

I also have a greater presence of PRR and foreign 50' box cars, due to Fisher
Body service and lumber service, respectively, than the proportion expected
for 40' boxes, for example, and higher percentages of gondolas and hoppers
than one would expect, due to the large presence of the steel and coal mining
industries. It is just part of that area specificity that one would expect.

There also seems to be an odd overabundance of certain roads' cars on the
PRR, and underabundance of others. I suspect this was due to the PRR's
relationship and connections with certain roads like the CB&Q, who is very
over represented, for example.

I would also love to see the breakdowns various folks have derived for their
fleets!

Elden Gatwood


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Tim;

607,000 boxcars seems an awfully low total for Boxcars - at least
through 1960.

That figure (606,634) is for Jan 1964, a point I have good date for (does not
include Canadian); but it is sacrilege to talk of that late date on this
list. The early 60's seem to be a real low point in many regards. PRR went
from ~150k in 1960 to about 116k in 1965. I am sure they were scrapping X29s
and H21As like mad.

What is missing from your totals are the Boxcars built to the 1923
Design dimension (8' 7" IH) including the X29; wood sheathed cars either
single or double sheathed which still comprised about 18% of the US
Class I Boxcar fleet on 12/31/1954 - down from 29% in 1950, 48% in 1945
& 62% in 1940; proprietary boxcars designs developed by individual RR's
like the PRR X31's. This last category might include rebuilds, too.

I would love to see that data, but by year, or at least every five years from
1940 to 1965. That would be a very interesting thesis.

The X29 for my timeframe would be overrepresented, given my modeling of the
PRR, and in my area, which attracted more than its share of old ugly
equipment. Nevertheless, X29's in my time, on a fleet basis, would have only
been 0.35% of the national box car fleet. Obviously those modeling earlier
timeframes would have much greater percentages of X29's by a long shot.

So please be more specific about the date of your survey. Also, you used
many sources - what were they?

Jan 1964; ORER, plus data put together by Jim Eager, Ed Hawkins, Ted Culotta,
and others, available on the Steam Freight Cars site, as well as from them.
It is just car type totals one would use; the total of box cars, and indeed
the expectation that there was little attrition, is based on statements made
by all you folks over the years.

Clearly the attrition of SS and DS cars would be a large factor in my
timeframe. I have been told that only ~1% of all box cars were wood
sheathed, by my era. The only wood sheathed cars I actually remember in
interchange were roads like NP, GN, and a couple southern roads, in addition
to one X26 and one B&O SS car I remember seeing. Care to comment?

Additionally, the retirement of X29s and NYC cars was growing very large in
the late 50's, and by 1964, few NYC cars, and only some 2125 X29s (down from
~28,000?), were still around, despite there being about 6400 X31As still on
the rails. There were also on 3 X26's, but 2624 X26C and 716 X26F rebuilds
and 2125 X29's, but 4,344 X29B's, 4,016 X29D's, and over a thousand other X29
rebuilds. Interesting.

Take care,

Elden


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Below in roughly five year increments are US Class I Boxcars owned
as
per the material of their underframe and sheathing. Cars listed in
the
Steel Underframe column could be single or double sheathed (wood)
while
most of those in the "Other" column had Wood or Composite (Steel
Center
Sills) Underframes (most had truss rods), but could be assumed had
wood
single or double sheathing. All-Steel means a SUF with Steel
Sheathing.

Total Steel SUF Other
Year 000's % Tot 000's % 000's %
000's %
1921 1,038 100.0% 29 3.2% 533 51.4% 471
45.4%
1925 1,078 100.0% 68 6.3% 664 61.6% 345
32.0%
1930 1,060 100.0% 125 11.8% 735 69.4% 200
18.8%
1935 809 100.0% 146 18.0% 584 72.2% 79
9.8%
1940 705 100.0% 268 37.9% 394 55.8% 44
6.2%
1945 742 100.0% 386 52.1% 329 44.5% 26
3.5%
1950 715 100.0% 507 70.8% 203 28.5% 5
0.7%
1954 720 100.0% 589 81.8% 129 18.0% 1
0.2%

I'm interested in 1946 (when locomotives were steam) - the %s I use
are typical steel box car (4/5 & 5/5 Drednaught ends with
rectangular panel roof) - 20%, single sheathed - 25%, double
sheathed 15% all other steel (including X29 sized cars, round roof
cars, rebuilds.....) - 40%. Truss rod box cars (included as SS and
DS) - 3%. I'm in pretty close agreement with Tim's data presented
above.

What about Pratt trussed box cars? Does 1 in 9 single sheathed cars
sound right?

How about double door box cars? 1 in 9 of all box cars sound right?

50 ft. cars? I'm not sure at all but in 1946 this would be a very
small number, maybe 2 or 3%.

What do you guys think?

Ed


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I know I should not comment on this but what the heck. You guys have all the fun while I research viruses.

There are certain subjects that seem to come up for discussion every few months. Hence, like lengthy debates about color, we once again see another discussion about frt car...or box car...populations on our model RR's. These discussions are entirely within scope and, I suppose, the only problem with them might be that they might be copied and used by some enlightened entrepreneur as a non drug response to insomnia. I do think, however, that we should at least attempt to clarify certain points...at the risk of immediately putting some members into an unexpected coma. Thus:

Bruce Smith writes:

"Here we go again... That's a falsehood perpetrated by model
railroaders. The facts seem to show pretty clearly that with a very
few special exceptions regionality (location) and connecting
railroads have NOTHING to do with populations of boxcars. Connecting
railroads may affect specific train makes-up (like Mike's favorite
example the espee forwarder) but those are usually "balanced
translocations", as we geneticists call them."

Weeelll...here's what we know from the tiny bit of data we have from the two Wyoming Fraley's which have been analyzed...mine and Tim Gilbert's. The following analysis was presented to the STMFC last Feb and March:

"The number of total cars to SP box cars in my report is 20.4 while 57.6 in
Tim's...4.9% in mine to 1.7% in Tim's. The number of SP box cars...136...is
9.89% of the total number of box cars. There were 233 UP box cars. The
number of SP box cars to foreign road box cars is 11.9%.

My Fraley shows the consists of 34 frt trains traveling between Rawlins and
Laramie, WY in 1949. Those trains include 2 WP box cars...#14334 and #40026.
The same trains show 53 definite C&NW box cars [ Tim Gilbert identified
55 ]. The C&NW % of the national fleet is about 2.79%. WP's % is 0.30%.
There are 1464 box cars in my Fraley. C&NW's 2.79% predicts 41 C&NW box
cars, 4.4 WP box cars. The error for C&NW is +14 cars...3.75% or an error of
about 34%. The 2 WP cars equates to 1.3%...an error of about 50%. The % of
the national fleet for SP [ not T&NO ] is 3.1%. This predicts 46 SP box
cars. The actual number is 136...or an error of 90 cars...about a 200%
error. The national % for CB&Q is 2.57% which predicts 38 cars. The actual
number is 75 producing an error of about 100%.

Thus, we find some RRs with major connections to the UP's Wyoming/Nebraska
trunk line to have a significantly higher number of box cars present in UP
trains than that of the national fleet. These include C&NW, SP, and CB&Q.
OTOH, WP has a significantly lower number. While C&NW and SP are direct
connections to significant markets from the Wyoming/Nebraska trunk line [
central California and the midwest through Chicago ], neither the WP or Q
appears to perform such a connection. The Q did have significant
interchanges with UP in the Nebraska, eastern Wyoming and Colorado areas."

It seems clear from the 1949 Fraley data that box car populations of SP, C&NW, and CB&Q on the UP between Laramie and Green River, WY do not follow the national percentages during the spring of 1949. Period. We can speculate why this might be true but, IMO, that is nothing but theory and it doesn't really matter anyhow if one is modeling the spring of 1949. For this priod, the population of frt cars on the UP between Laramie and Green River is available...for 34 frt trains.

Other information, such as the video of the infamous UP train with 36+ SP box cars shot in 1953 apparently near Buford, WY, and 4 or 5 additional train footage shot during '53 confirms that large numbers of SP box cars were accumulated in certain UP frt trains. Why this was so is again open to speculation and theory but if one is modeling the area and time the reason is not relevent. Such theory is, of course, relevent if one is trying to draw conclusions in order to project populations in other areas or at different periods of time. Unfortunately, IMO, such conclusions are simply theory and the supporting data are not available. IOW, we don't have any data...that I'm aware of...regarding the CB&Q in Nebraska, the Mopac and Frisco from St. Louis to KC, ATSF from Chicago to LA etc. Knowing that the actual numbers in the Laramie/Green River area are so much in error from the national percentage prediction, how can one rely on such a theory to project a population on the ATSF or SP in Arizona? Or even the L&N between Knoxville and Cincinnati?

The Tim Gilbert/Dave Nelson theory that box car populations match...within some "ball park"...the national percentage appears to be a "long term" evaluation...say for a year. And, BTW, it is an interesting and useful theory...definitely bringing light to an area filled with erroneous conclusions from the past...as Bruce notes. Anyhow, if one had frt conductor books for an entire yr and IF the data showed a close match to the national percentage, the modeler would still be left with the problem that he/she doesn't model for the entire yr...unless they change the scenery about 4 times during the process. Yes...Wyoming scenery...think of the poor guy doing any place north of south Ga...does change between Jan and June. IOW, even if the population of a particular RR matched the national percentage...and we don't know that it does...for a yr, it won't necessarily in the shorter term.

So...what is one to do? Simple as can be. Don't sweat it. Acquire more cars of the RRs with larger fleets, more cars of the RR you model, and one or two cars of RRs with smaller fleets and move on. In fact, one could simply use the national percentage. I mean...it's as good as any way to acquire more cars of RRs with larger fleets, few cars of RRs with smaller fleets. That will give you time to consider various responses to the Prototype Police as to why you...modeling, say, the GN in Montana have a Seaboard hopper car or, you, Armand, have an SP GS gon up in Vermont. The answer, BTW, is also simple. Just shrug your shoulders and say..."I have no clue...it just showed up". If the Prototype Police begin writing a ticket...quickly produce your photo of the UP train in Wahsatch, UT [ The Streamliner, Vol 18 no 2, pg 17 ] with the 2 Mopac hoppers and 2 Rock Island GS gons ]. I don't, however, suggest running 2 SP GS gons, Armand. Don't want to push the issue you know.<G>.

Anyone still awake?

Mike Brock