I was studying the video tape The Big Boy Collection again to determine what the 36 SP box cars actually were and I was startled to note that about 10 or more of the PFE reefers appear to have hatches in the open position. If so, this would mean they were carrying produce which, in turn, means the train is likely traveling east which in turn means the box cars are not MT's going home.

Incidentally, I was surprised to note that at least 4 B-50-13 or 14 cars are in the train and no leass than 8 B-50-15's or 16's.

Mike Brock

I've read that some loads require ventilation, and that the hatches
were left open to provide that.
Ted Larson

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

I was startled to note that about 10 or
more of the PFE reefers appear to have hatches in the open position.

If so,

this would mean they were carrying produce which,

Ted Larson wrote:

I've read that some loads require ventilation, and that the hatches were left open to provide that.

Ted, I think that is exactly what Mike Brock meant.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

This might be a daft question but how sure are you that ventilating the
interior always means a loaded car? I can think of a number of reasons for
ventilating an empty car – perhaps an earlier load that didn’t make it to
market in time left the insides needing a good scrub, or they were cars that
had been washed inside and needed to be dried out before the next load.



Aidrian

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton wrote:

This might be a daft question but how sure are you that ventilating the
interior always means a loaded car? I can think of a number of reasons
for
ventilating an empty car – perhaps an earlier load that didn’t make it
to
market in time left the insides needing a good scrub, or they were
cars that
had been washed inside and needed to be dried out before the next load.

Logical, Adrian, but the PFE people I interviewed said, at least
for PFE, that neither of these was done. The only exception was after
general repairs, when some additional airing MIGHT be called for on the
first empty trip leaving the shop. I have the impression that SFRD
practice was similar.
For these reasons, I often remark in talks that the
railfan/modeler idea, that hatches up mean empties, is diametrically
wrong, at least for PFE and SFRD.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Mike Brock wrote:

I was studying the video tape The Big Boy Collection again to determine what
the 36 SP box cars actually were and I was startled to note that about 10 or
more of the PFE reefers appear to have hatches in the open position. If so,
this would mean they were carrying produce which, in turn, means the train
is likely traveling east which in turn means the box cars are not MT's going
home.

Incidentally, I was surprised to note that at least 4 B-50-13 or 14 cars are
in the train and no leass than 8 B-50-15's or 16's.

Mike,

Implicit is your assumption that all reefer loads on Sherman Hill were eastbound which runs counter to the assumption that all solid blocks of boxcars owned by one RR are westbound empties.

Evidently, you have changed your mind since last January about the identification of the depot to the east or west of the site. IIRC, it started with a "B."

A couple of questions:

1) Can you detect any door seals on either the boxcars or reefers? The door seals could be an indication of a loaded car.
2) What was the position of the sun in relation to the camera? On which side of the Big Boy (#4006?), did the shadow fall - towards the left or right side of the picture? The shadows of telephone poles may be another indicator.

Tim Gilbert

Tim Gilbert writes:

Implicit is your assumption that all reefer loads on Sherman Hill were
eastbound which runs counter to the assumption that all solid blocks of
boxcars owned by one RR are westbound empties.

Well, first of all, I don't consider myself to be an authority on PFE reefer traffic [ or very much else except perhaps on the rules of the STMFC <G> ] but my understanding from Tony Thompson's research is that very little produce [ if any ] was westbound.

Evidently, you have changed your mind since last January about the
identification of the depot to the east or west of the site.

Not really. I have always said that the location could be the curve near Buford. I'm going to review this again. The problem is that there are few landmarks...the distant water tank being one.

1) Can you detect any door seals on either the boxcars or reefers? The
door seals could be an indication of a loaded car.
2) What was the position of the sun in relation to the camera? On which
side of the Big Boy (#4006?), did the shadow fall - towards the left or
right side of the picture? The shadows of telephone poles may be
another indicator.

I'll check these out later today.

Mike Brock

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

I was studying the video tape The Big Boy Collection again to

determine what

the 36 SP box cars actually were and I was startled to note that

about 10 or

more of the PFE reefers appear to have hatches in the open

position. If so,

this would mean they were carrying produce which, in turn, means

the train

is likely traveling east which in turn means the box cars are not

MT's going

home.

Incidentally, I was surprised to note that at least 4 B-50-13 or 14

cars are

in the train and no leass than 8 B-50-15's or 16's.

Mike,

If you are refering to the run-by with the 4005, it appears that the
train is going west assuming that the sun is on the south side most
of the time in Wyoming. The sides of the cars and the rails are lit
up by the sun. I counted a cut of 33 PFE's near the head end of the
train and counted 42 SP box cars (at least one T&NO) before the
camera faded out near the end of the train. Could not read the
lettering on the head car, but it looked like it could have been a B-
15-13 or -14.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

Chet French writes:

"If you are refering to the run-by with the 4005, it appears that the
train is going west assuming that the sun is on the south side most
of the time in Wyoming."

I agree completely. Tim Gilbert suggested that I look at this...which I did...and one can definitely see shadows to the left of the engine as it approaches from the right. The shot was taken in late '53 meaning that, without doubt, the film was shot south of the tracks and the train is traveling from east to west.

Further study reveals that the "open" hatches are not really open at all but, instead, such an impression is produced by platforms on wood sided cars extending above the side of the car. In every case in which a hatch "looks" like it might be open somewhat, the car is a wood sided one. I might add that observations are not that easy even when viewing single frame because of the angle. Still a fascinating train for the frt car historian.

Mike Brock