NYC Cement Car?


Gerard J Fitzgerald <gjf@...>
 

Hi All,

I was studying the photos from John Golden?s very exciting RPM meet and was
wondering about the NYC car (#3481392) by Mike Dudley.

http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/image/65833004/large

Are those cement containers? I thought this was a very intriguing piece of
rolling stock not to mention a wonderful model. Can Mike or someone tell us a
little bit more about this car and how many the New York Central (or anyone
else) built. Thanks. Let me conclude by noting that while not a freight car
topic, the shots of the American Model Builder ?completely operational
interlocking linkage? is sure to be a big hit.

Gerry

Dr. Gerard J. Fitzgerald
Lecturer-Department of History-University of Pennsylvania
Chair, 2006 Forum for the History of Science in America Prize
2006-07 John C. Haas Fellow in the History of Chemical Industries
Chemical Heritage Foundation
315 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19106
Phone: 215-925-2222 ? Fax: 215-925-1954
Gfitzgerald@...


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Gerard J Fitzgerald asked:

I was studying the photos from John Golden?s very exciting RPM meet and was
wondering about the NYC car (#3481392) by Mike Dudley.

http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/image/65833004/large <http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/image/65833004/large>

Are those cement containers? I thought this was a very intriguing piece of
rolling stock not to mention a wonderful model. Can Mike or someone tell us a
little bit more about this car and how many the New York Central (or anyone
else) built. Thanks.
Gerry,

NYC #381392 was used to carry containers of Calcium Carbide as it appeared sometime after 1962. #381392 was part of the eight car #481388-481395 series which were converted from 53' 6" General Service Flats with 70-ton trucks built by Dispatch Shops and GATX between 1942 and 1950.

The cars were assigned to Calcium Carbide producers (Union Carbide Metals Division in Ashtabula OH and Niagara Falls NY and Pittsburgh Metallurgical in Niagara Falls on the NYC) in what those producers called "bulk service" for large customers as opposed to "drum service" which were loaded into boxcars for smaller customers.

Tim Gilbert who spent two weeks loading boxcars in Ashtabula in February 1967 when the temperature never got above zero.


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Hi:

So would this be the prototype - of a sort - for the AHM "Calcium Carbide" car?

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gilbert
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NYC Cement Car?


Gerry,

NYC #381392 was used to carry containers of Calcium Carbide as it
appeared sometime after 1962. #381392 was part of the eight car
#481388-481395 series which were converted from 53' 6" General Service
Flats with 70-ton trucks built by Dispatch Shops and GATX between 1942
and 1950.

The cars were assigned to Calcium Carbide producers (Union Carbide
Metals Division in Ashtabula OH and Niagara Falls NY and Pittsburgh
Metallurgical in Niagara Falls on the NYC) in what those producers
called "bulk service" for large customers as opposed to "drum service"
which were loaded into boxcars for smaller customers.

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Tony Thompson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
So would this be the prototype - of a sort - for the AHM "Calcium Carbide" car?
Excellent question, Kurt. I would assume there IS a possible connection. As I asked earlier, could there have been some generic design for the industry? Especially if most of the traffic was from UCC, I can see something like that. But AHM wouldn't have researched that . . . or would they?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Hi:

If anything, the AHM car looks to be a more modern version, with a rather lightweight framework on a flat rather than the substantial bulkheads and frames on the RPM model. More modern, maybe, but I doubt it could handle those canisters. In addition to just looking weak, the AHM framework would appear to hold them well below the middle -and below the canister's CG.

AHM seems to have at tried to capture the look of real cars. (I don't recall anything that was created from whole cloth.) So perhaps there is a "calcium carbide" car out there, but made for something else?

KL


Captain Dudley
 

--- In STMFC@..., Gerard J Fitzgerald <gjf@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I was studying the photos from John Golden?s very exciting RPM
meet and was
wondering about the NYC car (#3481392) by Mike Dudley.

http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/image/65833004/large

Are those cement containers? I thought this was a very intriguing
piece of
rolling stock not to mention a wonderful model. Can Mike or
someone tell us a
little bit more about this car and how many the New York Central
(or anyone
else) built. Thanks. Let me conclude by noting that while not a
freight car
topic, the shots of the American Model Builder ?completely
operational
interlocking linkage? is sure to be a big hit.

Gerry

Dr. Gerard J. Fitzgerald
Lecturer-Department of History-University of Pennsylvania
Chair, 2006 Forum for the History of Science in America Prize
2006-07 John C. Haas Fellow in the History of Chemical Industries
Chemical Heritage Foundation
315 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19106
Phone: 215-925-2222 ? Fax: 215-925-1954
Gfitzgerald@...
Sir:
There is a photo of this car in the Latest New York Central Color
Freight Car guide (Vol II)published by Morning Sun. Tim Gilbert's
descriptionof the series of cars is right on the money. There is
also a similar car that the Southern Pacific Railroad used. However,
the picture listed for their car said that it was used for Calcium
Chloride..My New York Central Freight Car registry said that the
cars were used for Calcium Carbide. It listed 8 cars that were
modified, but other photgraphic evidence indicates that some of the
cars were modified for steel castings. So my guess is that there
were between 1 to 7 cars that may have been Calcium Carbide
container flats.

Regards,

Mike Dudley
Cincinnati OH


Tony Thompson
 

Mike Dudley wrote:
There is a photo of this car in the Latest New York Central Color Freight Car guide (Vol II)published by Morning Sun. Tim Gilbert's descriptionof the series of cars is right on the money. There is also a similar car that the Southern Pacific Railroad used. However, the picture listed for their car said that it was used for Calcium Chloride.
What SP source is this? the documentation I used on my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 3, clearly said "calcium carbide," and I'm not aware of any SP cars set up for calcium chloride. In any case, that chemical, used sometimes for road de-icing, is not particularly valuable.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Captain Dudley
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

Mike Dudley wrote:
There is a photo of this car in the Latest New York Central
Color
Freight Car guide (Vol II)published by Morning Sun. Tim
Gilbert's
descriptionof the series of cars is right on the money. There is
also
a similar car that the Southern Pacific Railroad used. However,
the
picture listed for their car said that it was used for Calcium
Chloride.
What SP source is this? the documentation I used on my SP
Freight
Cars, Vol. 3, clearly said "calcium carbide," and I'm not aware of
any
SP cars set up for calcium chloride. In any case, that chemical,
used
sometimes for road de-icing, is not particularly valuable.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Tony:
I am sorry your are right the car I was talking about was SP 598051
and it was a Calcium Carbide Container flat. It used the F-70-F flat
car. this car had 22 containers just like the NYC car I modeled, but
the rack frame structure was considerably different. My source for
the SP info is the Car Builders Cyclopedia, pg 164, 1961 edition.

Mike Dudley
Cincinnati OH


Tony Thompson
 

Mike Dudley wrote:
Tony:
I am sorry your are right the car I was talking about was SP 598051
and it was a Calcium Carbide Container flat. It used the F-70-F flat
car. this car had 22 containers just like the NYC car I modeled, but
the rack frame structure was considerably different. My source for
the SP info is the Car Builders Cyclopedia, pg 164, 1961 edition.
Ah, the 1961 Cyc. Those are the same photos I have from SP sources, and which I used in my Vol. 3 on SP Freight Cars to depict the two cars which SP converted.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Mike:

Does the SP car you refer to look like this?

http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/490.JPG
http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/488.JPG

If so, then this is probably the prototype for the 22 slot AHM "calcium carbide" car, rather than the SHPX car which has 28 slots (but was also modeled by AHM)..

The 1961 ORER list these as class LF, 2 cars, 598051 and 598099, with 22 demountable calcium carbide containers. CN 63000 seems to be bogus.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Dudley
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:31 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Cement Car?


--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:
>
> Mike Dudley wrote:
> > There is a photo of this car in the Latest New York Central
Color
> > Freight Car guide (Vol II)published by Morning Sun. Tim
Gilbert's
> > descriptionof the series of cars is right on the money. There is
also
> > a similar car that the Southern Pacific Railroad used. However,
the
> > picture listed for their car said that it was used for Calcium
> > Chloride.
>
> What SP source is this? the documentation I used on my SP
Freight
> Cars, Vol. 3, clearly said "calcium carbide," and I'm not aware of
any
> SP cars set up for calcium chloride. In any case, that chemical,
used
> sometimes for road de-icing, is not particularly valuable.
>
> Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
> 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
> (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
> Publishers of books on railroad history
>
Tony:
I am sorry your are right the car I was talking about was SP 598051
and it was a Calcium Carbide Container flat. It used the F-70-F flat
car. this car had 22 containers just like the NYC car I modeled, but
the rack frame structure was considerably different. My source for
the SP info is the Car Builders Cyclopedia, pg 164, 1961 edition.

Mike Dudley
Cincinnati OH


Captain Dudley
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Mike:

Does the SP car you refer to look like this?

http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/490.JPG
http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/488.JPG

If so, then this is probably the prototype for the 22 slot
AHM "calcium carbide" car, rather than the SHPX car which has 28
slots (but was also modeled by AHM)..

The 1961 ORER list these as class LF, 2 cars, 598051 and 598099,
with 22 demountable calcium carbide containers. CN 63000 seems to
be bogus.

KL


----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Dudley
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:31 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Cement Car?


--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@>
wrote:
>
> Mike Dudley wrote:
> > There is a photo of this car in the Latest New York Central
Color
> > Freight Car guide (Vol II)published by Morning Sun. Tim
Gilbert's
> > descriptionof the series of cars is right on the money.
There is
also
> > a similar car that the Southern Pacific Railroad used.
However,
the
> > picture listed for their car said that it was used for
Calcium
> > Chloride.
>
> What SP source is this? the documentation I used on my SP
Freight
> Cars, Vol. 3, clearly said "calcium carbide," and I'm not
aware of
any
> SP cars set up for calcium chloride. In any case, that
chemical,
used
> sometimes for road de-icing, is not particularly valuable.
>
> Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
> 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
> (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@
> Publishers of books on railroad history
>
Tony:
I am sorry your are right the car I was talking about was SP
598051
and it was a Calcium Carbide Container flat. It used the F-70-F
flat
car. this car had 22 containers just like the NYC car I modeled,
but
the rack frame structure was considerably different. My source
for
the SP info is the Car Builders Cyclopedia, pg 164, 1961 edition.

Mike Dudley
Cincinnati OH






KL:
Those pics are right on the money! 22 containers and the foot socket
mounts. That is what the SP car depicts in the photo. As far as the
model..as long as the length is correct then looks good to me!

Mike Dudley


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Mike:

The cars in those two previous links were Atlas N scale. I dug out my AHM. . . It doesn't have any foot stops for the containers. The car length is 6-13/16, which is 49.4 feet. Obviously they just used their standard flat.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Dudley
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Cement Car?


KL:
Those pics are right on the money! 22 containers and the foot socket
mounts. That is what the SP car depicts in the photo. As far as the
model..as long as the length is correct then looks good to me!

Mike Dudley
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Tony Thompson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Does the SP car you refer to look like this?

http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/490.JPG
http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/488.JPG

If so, then this is probably the prototype for the 22 slot AHM "calcium carbide" car, rather than the SHPX car which has 28 slots (but was also modeled by AHM)..
The 1961 ORER list these as class LF, 2 cars, 598051 and 598099, with 22 demountable calcium carbide containers. CN 63000 seems to be bogus.
It's vaguely like the SP car, but the length may be wrong: the SP one was built on a 53 ft, 6 in. flat car. This looks too short.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Mr Charles burns
 

Hello All
I'm currently detailing one of the Atlas cars for my N scale '64
coastline layout. The body is 53'6"long. The deck has a good
representation of the posts that hold the containers. I compared it
to the pictures in vol3 of ESPEE freight cars, and it was obviously
modelled from the 2 cars in the book.
Considering that it is 1970s tooling from the early days of N, it is
a great piece of work. With lowering,LP wheels, and body mounted
couplers, it holds up well compared to the more recent tooling.
Charlie Burns
--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
wrote:

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Does the SP car you refer to look like this?

http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/490.JPG
http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/488.JPG

If so, then this is probably the prototype for the 22 slot AHM
"calcium carbide" car, rather than the SHPX car which has 28
slots
(but was also modeled by AHM)..
The 1961 ORER list these as class LF, 2 cars, 598051 and 598099,
with
22 demountable calcium carbide containers. CN 63000 seems to be
bogus.

It's vaguely like the SP car, but the length may be wrong:
the
SP one was built on a 53 ft, 6 in. flat car. This looks too short.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Ian Cranstone
 

On 1-Sep-06, at 7:53 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

Does the SP car you refer to look like this?

http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/490.JPG
http://www.us-train50.de/N-Bilder/400/488.JPG

If so, then this is probably the prototype for the 22 slot AHM "calcium carbide" car, rather than the SHPX car which has 28 slots (but was also modeled by AHM)..

The 1961 ORER list these as class LF, 2 cars, 598051 and 598099, with 22 demountable calcium carbide containers. CN 63000 seems to be bogus.
I think I can definitely say that 63400 (at least that's what the number looks like) is bogus. Although I don't seem to have any listing under that number, it was almost certainly a double-sheathed wood boxcar in bunk service. CN did have a few gondolas in the 193000 and 193100 series in container service, but no flats to my knowledge. There were some container flats in the 634000 series that they may have been thinking of, but these cars were rebuilt from 40' steel frame boxcars to move 20' containers circa 1969 and didn't look much like this model.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net