Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tom Chenowth wrote:
"It was shopped at WC 7 62..."

IT IS NOT A SHOP DATE (OR A REPAINT DATE). It's when the car was last reweighed. A car would be reweighed after work done in the car shops that would affect its tare weight; however, cars were reweighed on a periodic basis without shopping. See RP Cyc 12 for more details.


Ben Hom


tchenoweth@...
 

Ben, you are correct. I was simply telling about the details on the car and
giving a date when the photo was taken. Since the photo was taken in 1962,
Santa Fe must have had SFRM cars prior to what was stated in the previous post.
Tom Chenoweth


mjmcguirk@...
 

Thanks for pointing that out Ben.

Perhaps the best evidence of how many model railroaders misunderstand this can be found in the "repaint" date checkers -- you know, the ones who have picked an era to model and have to ensure the cars were all "repainted" before the era.

Depending on the regs in force at the time, and the particular car, that "repaint" date of 10-1953 would make the car appropriate for any time after October 1953, right? Wrong! If you're modeling 1957 (or 58, etc . ) the car is just as inappropriate as it would be for 1949 since that car would have reqeighed by then and the date would have been replaced.

Model railroaders somehow over the years have gotten the idea that the reweigh date has something to do with the car's paint scheme. That car stenciled 10-53 may have a paint scheme that was in vogue for years prior to the reweigh date, meaning the paint scheme might be just as accurate (and even more appropriate) for 1946 as 1954.

It's the main reason I never advocated putting the "years" on the product labels at InterMountain -- to be truly accurate the label would have to read something like -- "Car wearing paint scheme introduced in 1943, reweighed in October 1953 and reflects the car as it appeared until it was again reweighed in 1956."

And that's jusy too much information.

Thanks again Ben.

Marty McGuirk


Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 3, 2006, at 8:09 AM, <mjmcguirk@...> <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:
It's the main reason I never advocated putting the "years" on the product labels at InterMountain -- to be truly accurate the label would have to read something like -- "Car wearing paint scheme introduced in 1943, reweighed in October 1953 and reflects the car as it appeared until it was again reweighed in 1956."

And that's jusy too much information.
Marty,

This just isn't that hard <G>! The box could (and SHOULD) read: 1943 scheme, reweigh 10/53.

For those of us who care (like this list) the information is there that tells me I can buy this car safely and redo the reweigh (likely with NEW) for my 6/44 date. For the great unwashed crowd out there, it makes no impact. IM's competition seems to be able to do this. Right now if I just look in the box, I see the 10/53 reweigh and I can't tell if the scheme is right for my era (not having memorize all the schemes of all the railroads in the US as some on this list may have).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the
windshield."
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mjmcguirk@...
 

Bruce,

I see your point. While I was at Inter Mountain we looked extensively at this and decided there was no "right" solution -- at least at the time.

For me, at this point, there is no longer any decision to be made, and the discussion is strictly academic (but still entertaining and interesting nonetheless!)

Marty McGuirk


Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Marty,

Kadee gives us this information, at least in their printed catalogs.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

It's the main reason I never advocated putting the "years" on the product labels at InterMountain -- to be truly accurate the label would have to read something like -- "Car wearing paint scheme introduced in 1943, reweighed in October 1953 and reflects the car as it appeared until it was again reweighed in 1956."

And that's jusy too much information.
Marty,



Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
 

Bruce,
Not to pick nits or anything, but unless the "1943 Scheme" you are referring to is the as-delivered scheme, you do not know the actual date the car in question was painted into the "1943 Scheme", you only know that 1943 was the earliest possible date it could have been painted in that scheme. Sometimes it took quite a few years to repaint cars in a new scheme, and sometimes not all cars of a class were repainted into a particular scheme.
Larry Grubb

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Oct 3, 2006, at 8:09 AM, <mjmcguirk@...> <mjmcguirk@...>
wrote:
It's the main reason I never advocated putting the "years" on the
product labels at InterMountain -- to be truly accurate the label
would have to read something like -- "Car wearing paint scheme
introduced in 1943, reweighed in October 1953 and reflects the car
as it appeared until it was again reweighed in 1956."

And that's jusy too much information.
Marty,

This just isn't that hard <G>! The box could (and SHOULD) read: 1943
scheme, reweigh 10/53.

For those of us who care (like this list) the information is there
that tells me I can buy this car safely and redo the reweigh (likely
with NEW) for my 6/44 date. For the great unwashed crowd out there,
it makes no impact. IM's competition seems to be able to do this.
Right now if I just look in the box, I see the 10/53 reweigh and I
can't tell if the scheme is right for my era (not having memorize all
the schemes of all the railroads in the US as some on this list may
have).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the
windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0






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Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Marty,

Just a random thought on that general subject. Have
somewhere a drawing that covers the painting instructions
for a GN single sheathed box car. They had zillions of
the things and most were painted red.

Now I know that there are those who try to find this kind
of equipment in museums or farm yards and research the
paint colors by going down through the layers. That is all
fine and good.

These instruction were for GN's pale blue painting phase.
It was not a good color and faded rather quickly. Now here
is the strange part. These instructions dictated that the
car be primed using "Glacier Green", before the blue coat
was applied. I'm sure you can see the trap that waits for
the paint chip collectors here.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: mjmcguirk@...
To: STMFC@...
Cc: Benjamin Hom
Sent: Tuesday, 03 October, 2006 08:09
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


Thanks for pointing that out Ben.

Perhaps the best evidence of how many model railroaders misunderstand this can be found in the "repaint" date checkers -- you know, the ones who have picked an era to model and have to ensure the cars were all "repainted" before the era.

Depending on the regs in force at the time, and the particular car, that "repaint" date of 10-1953 would make the car appropriate for any time after October 1953, right? Wrong! If you're modeling 1957 (or 58, etc . ) the car is just as inappropriate as it would be for 1949 since that car would have reqeighed by then and the date would have been replaced.

Model railroaders somehow over the years have gotten the idea that the reweigh date has something to do with the car's paint scheme. That car stenciled 10-53 may have a paint scheme that was in vogue for years prior to the reweigh date, meaning the paint scheme might be just as accurate (and even more appropriate) for 1946 as 1954.

It's the main reason I never advocated putting the "years" on the product labels at InterMountain -- to be truly accurate the label would have to read something like -- "Car wearing paint scheme introduced in 1943, reweighed in October 1953 and reflects the car as it appeared until it was again reweighed in 1956."

And that's jusy too much information.

Thanks again Ben.

Marty McGuirk


Bruce Smith
 

On Tue, October 3, 2006 4:27 pm, Larry Grubb wrote:
Bruce,
Not to pick nits or anything, but unless the "1943 Scheme" you are
referring to is the as-delivered scheme, you do not know the actual date
the car in question was painted into the "1943 Scheme", you only know
that 1943 was the earliest possible date it could have been painted in
that scheme. Sometimes it took quite a few years to repaint cars in a
new scheme, and sometimes not all cars of a class were repainted into a
particular scheme.
Larry,

True, but at least I know that the SCHEME is appropriate <G>. Given the
paucity of 1944 photographs, I can never hope to document every single car
in my 500+ car fleet, therefore I have to be willing to accept that it is
likely that at least some cars were painted the 1943 scheme in 1944. Of
course, if the manufacturer is selling the 1930 scheme too, the
manufacurer's boxes have now conveyed to me that there are multiple
schemes that might be appropriate for 1944. I would pick up some of these
as well to represent cars that have yet to be repainted. Once in awhile I
get lucky, like when Richard Hendrickson shared a post WWII photo of a NYC
USRA steel boxcar still in Big 4 paint - I KNEW that car number was in Big
4 paint in 1944 <G> but in general, I have to go with the probabilities
;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Bruce,

If I may ask, why would a Big 4 car in 1944 be unusual?
The PC merger did not happen until 1968. NYC never truly
merged all its lines. They were still in the routing
tariffs in the mid sixties. As a matter of fact either
NYC or PC re-initialed hundreds of two bay hoppers back
to T.O.C. I suppose it was some kind of sale and lease
back deal and it was an easy way to identify the cars
involved.

It was fairly common in those days for someone working
for either the Railroad or the Company loading a car
to bend a new seal in the middle and hang it on one of
the lower ladder rungs so whomever closed the door would
have the right seal for that car. I can recall walking
a track one night and seeing a seal on a ladder rung on
a box car. It was a cold night and I just took it off
and stuck it in my pocket. When I got back to the office
I was surprised to see it was identified as "CCC&StL".
Think I still have that seal and it has never been locked.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Smith
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, 03 October, 2006 20:38
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


Once in awhile I get lucky, like when Richard Hendrickson shared a post
WWII photo of a NYC USRA steel boxcar still in Big 4 paint - I KNEW
that car number was in Big 4 paint in 1944 <G> but in general, I have to go
with the probabilities
;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:06 PM, Russ Strodtz wrote:

Bruce,

If I may ask, why would a Big 4 car in 1944 be unusual?
The PC merger did not happen until 1968. NYC never truly
merged all its lines.
Russ,

Since we were commenting on paint schemes, I was talking about a car in CCC&StL paint, not one that belonged to the Big 4 on paper. As Mark indicated, these cars were given NYC reporting marks beginning in 1936. To see a car lettered "C.C.C.&St.L." would have been pretty unusual 8 years after these cars were absorbed into the NYC. Thus, one out of my 9 or so NYC USRA Steel boxcars will be lettered for Big 4 while the rest will most likely have NYC reporting marks.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the
windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 4, 2006, at 7:56 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Since we were commenting on paint schemes, I was talking about a car
in CCC&StL paint, not one that belonged to the Big 4 on paper. As
Mark indicated, these cars were given NYC reporting marks beginning
in 1936. To see a car lettered "C.C.C.&St.L." would have been pretty
unusual 8 years after these cars were absorbed into the NYC. Thus,
one out of my 9 or so NYC USRA Steel boxcars will be lettered for Big
4 while the rest will most likely have NYC reporting marks.
Bruce is essentially correct here. However, the absorption of subsidiary RR's cars under NYC reporting marks and new numbers proceeded very slowly in the late 1930s and even more slowly during WW II, so that a sizable number of cars still bore MC or CCC&StL reporting marks into the mid-1940s. Of the USRA-design steel box cars we're talking about here, more than 600 were still listed under MC and 2,120 under CCC&StL reporting marks in the 1/45 ORER. There were even 24 cars still listed under Cincinnati Northern (NOR reporting marks). A few of these cars still had their original reporting marks and numbers in 1950 and a handful even as late as 1953 (28 Big Four and 7 MC). On the other hand, Canada Southern and Peoria & Eastern cars were never folded into the NYC roster while B&A cars didn't start to be integrated until the early 1950s and some were still around under B&A reporting marks a decade later. A few cars remained in revenue service for the P&E right up until the eve of the PC merger, and I have a photo of a P&E car that had been shopped and repainted in the early 1960s, almost forty years after it had been built. Small and obsolete though they were in the post-WW-II era, the "Central" got more than its money's worth out of these early steel box cars, and they were almost as common in interchange on other RRs as the Pennsy X29s.

Richard Hendrickson


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Richard and all interested;



Since you brought it up, and it IS a very interesting topic, what were the
final dates that cars would have been lettered for the:



P, McK & Y? (I understand that there may have been some lettered with these
marks into the early 60's, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)



W&LE (I have heard up to the merger, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)



Are there any photos of these in their latter days?



Thanks!



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:01 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)




On Oct 4, 2006, at 7:56 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Since we were commenting on paint schemes, I was talking about a car
in CCC&StL paint, not one that belonged to the Big 4 on paper. As
Mark indicated, these cars were given NYC reporting marks beginning
in 1936. To see a car lettered "C.C.C.&St.L." would have been pretty
unusual 8 years after these cars were absorbed into the NYC. Thus,
one out of my 9 or so NYC USRA Steel boxcars will be lettered for Big
4 while the rest will most likely have NYC reporting marks.
Bruce is essentially correct here. However, the absorption of
subsidiary RR's cars under NYC reporting marks and new numbers
proceeded very slowly in the late 1930s and even more slowly during WW
II, so that a sizable number of cars still bore MC or CCC&StL reporting
marks into the mid-1940s. Of the USRA-design steel box cars we're
talking about here, more than 600 were still listed under MC and 2,120
under CCC&StL reporting marks in the 1/45 ORER. There were even 24
cars still listed under Cincinnati Northern (NOR reporting marks). A
few of these cars still had their original reporting marks and numbers
in 1950 and a handful even as late as 1953 (28 Big Four and 7 MC). On
the other hand, Canada Southern and Peoria & Eastern cars were never
folded into the NYC roster while B&A cars didn't start to be integrated
until the early 1950s and some were still around under B&A reporting
marks a decade later. A few cars remained in revenue service for the
P&E right up until the eve of the PC merger, and I have a photo of a
P&E car that had been shopped and repainted in the early 1960s, almost
forty years after it had been built. Small and obsolete though they
were in the post-WW-II era, the "Central" got more than its money's
worth out of these early steel box cars, and they were almost as common
in interchange on other RRs as the Pennsy X29s.

Richard Hendrickson


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 4, 2006, at 10:17 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

...what were the
final dates that cars would have been lettered for the:

P, McK & Y? (I understand that there may have been some lettered with these
marks into the early 60's, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)
A few were left in 1/62.

W&LE (I have heard up to the merger, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)
840 cars in 10/58

214 cars in 1/62

Are there any photos of these in their latter days?
Yes, depending on car type and what you mean by "latter days."

Richard Hendrickson


Terry Link <trlink@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
A few cars remained in revenue service for the
P&E right up until the eve of the PC merger, and I have a photo of a
P&E car that had been shopped and repainted in the early 1960s,
Not just old cars carried the P&E reporting marks into the 1960's.

P&E received 85 brand new cars in 1959 in lots 883-B and 884-B and another 150 in 1964 in lots 943-B and
944-B.


Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
trlink@...
www.canadasouthern.com


Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

This is out of era, but the Peoria & Eastern (P&E) had fifty foot
boxcars with PC heralds.

Mont Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Terry Link
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
A few cars remained in revenue service for the
P&E right up until the eve of the PC merger, and I have a photo of a
P&E car that had been shopped and repainted in the early 1960s,
Not just old cars carried the P&E reporting marks into the 1960's.

P&E received 85 brand new cars in 1959 in lots 883-B and 884-B and
another
150 in 1964 in lots 943-B and
944-B.


Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
trlink@...
www.canadasouthern.com





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Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Thanks for the reply, Richard!

P, McK & Y? (I understand that there may have been some lettered with
these
marks into the early 60's, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)
A few were left in 1/62.
Thank you for that information. Do you have any idea what specific car
classes/lots were involved? Any of the USRA gons?


W&LE (I have heard up to the merger, but they do not appear in a 1964
ORER)
840 cars in 10/58
214 cars in 1/62
Are there any photos of these in their latter days?
Yes, depending on car type and what you mean by "latter days."
I was trying to be careful about not violating the end date of this list, but
I am very interested how many of the 41' gons (and which numbers) made it to
the merger in WLE lettering.

Thanks for the reply!

Elden Gatwood


Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Elden,

Again from Oct-1960:

PMcK&Y

53000 to 54499 70 ton hoppers 7 cars.
91000 to 91499 46' gons, 30 drop ends & 16 fixed end.
91500 to 92499 45'11" gons 15 drop ends & 83 fixed ends.

There is a note that lists which exact cars had fixed ends.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, 05 October, 2006 06:13
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


Thanks for the reply, Richard!

> P, McK & Y? (I understand that there may have been some lettered with
> these
> marks into the early 60's, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)

>A few were left in 1/62.

Thank you for that information. Do you have any idea what specific car
classes/lots were involved? Any of the USRA gons?


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Russ, Kurt, and Richard;

Thanks VERY much for following up with all that information!

I want to finish up on a Westerfield P,McK&Y USRA gon (Lot 385-G?), but
definitely wanted to do it in that lettering, rather than a P&LE repaint, and
do it for the beginning of the 60's, right before scrapping. I will
(eventually) have many other P&LE gons, mostly Greenville-style 52'-ers, but
this one will be unique.

A nagging question remains if ALL the PLE/PMcK&Y USRA cars had "patch panels"
(well, reinforcement panels, anyway) fitted to the sides, but I have a
feeling that that question will never be answered.

The Westerfield kit was, as usual, a joy to build.

Similarly, I also want to do my Sunshine WLE car in that lettering, rather
than a NKP repaint. I also have a number of NKP cars, including other gons,
and want to do this one as a surviving member of that fleet.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Russ
Strodtz
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)

Elden,

Again from Oct-1960:

PMcK&Y

53000 to 54499 70 ton hoppers 7 cars.
91000 to 91499 46' gons, 30 drop ends & 16 fixed end.
91500 to 92499 45'11" gons 15 drop ends & 83 fixed ends.

There is a note that lists which exact cars had fixed ends.

Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, 05 October, 2006 06:13
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Reweigh Dates (was Re: fAIRFAX SFRD CARS)


Thanks for the reply, Richard!

> P, McK & Y? (I understand that there may have been some lettered with
> these
> marks into the early 60's, but they do not appear in a 1964 ORER)

>A few were left in 1/62.

Thank you for that information. Do you have any idea what specific car
classes/lots were involved? Any of the USRA gons?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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