Kit brakes


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

I'm working on the Speedwitch NP 50' SS door ½ box car. The body is
made up of the side, ends, and roof. The underframe fits into the
body very well. I took time to fit different couplers than the kit
was designed for, no problems. The only real challenge to the kit
appears to be the end ladders. They're my next step.

It seems like almost half the kit's written instructions are devoted
to the brake rigging. On this car with the `fish belly' center beams
I add the three AB brake components, the two levers that go through
the center beams, a wire from each lever to end of the car, and a
wire between the cylinder and the AB valve. On other style
underframes I'll add the two pipes between the air tank and valve and
the link between the two levers. All this fiddling with the brake
rigging consumes almost half of the kit's assembly time. I can't
image the time and swear words it would take to do a more complete
job. I have put the brake rigging that comes with plastic kits on
resin models, a real time saver and they include the same stuff I
would have to fabricate. I don't even drill any holes. I cut all the
mounting lugs off, lay the piece in place and super glue the crap out
of everything.

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their models?

Clark Propst


Jack Burgess
 

Clark asked:

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their models?
I decided over 25 years ago that every freight car on my layout would
include full brake rigging including air lines, etc. But that is just my own
personal standard. It somewhat goes along with similar decisions not to have
any freight car on the layout with molded on ladders or grab irons, not to
have freight cars which would be improper for the month/year being modeled,
and not to have freight cars which would not logically be on my prototype
such as meat reefers, etc.....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 11, 2:23pm, rockroll50401 wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Kit brakes

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their models?

Clark Propst

Clark,

The only car under which I have put full brake rigging is a
Harriman baggage car (a resin kit from SC&F). The lack of prototype info
(and my own ignorance of passenger brake systems) has made it a real
challenge! The actual modeling wasn't so hard, but figuring out WHAT to
model and WHERE everything went drove me nuts! [With all due respect to
the author of the kit instructions, the instructions are wrong. On top of
that, the prototype diagram supplied happens to not match the car in the
photo that I have].

So far, all my other cars have the stock brake equipment that came
with the kit.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


mjmcguirk@...
 

Clark,

If you're planning to spend so much time looking at your brake rigging you need to make your trackwork more reliable . . .


Okay, wise alek mode off.

I certainly respect Jack's, and Ted's, viewpoints about putting brake rigging on a model. My personal standard has always been -- if it can be seen from the side put it on -- for everything else leave it off. If it's really easy to include the rigging (like in most injection molded kits) I'll go ahead and add it. Though I've started replacing the brake rods in plastic kits with wire since the smaller cross section looks better. Any cars with deep side sills tend to have little, if any brake rigging at all.

Again, that's only something I'll do if it shows up from the side (my layouts have always been pretty high) --

Just my approach.

Marty McGuirk


Barry Bennett <Barrybennetttoo@...>
 

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their
models?

Clark Propst
It depends how much it shows.

If a car kit comes moulded rigging I put it on, but otherwise I only
add what shows.

That means I do a lot of fiddly wire bending on hoppers but very
little under any other car, unless I am in the mood to do more. Most
kits have instructions varying from nil to crap but the major things
that show from photo's, like brake cylinders and air cylinders do get
put on as close to accurate as I can.

I am very much a modeller who follows the adage of 'if you can't see
it, don't do it'. I particularly dislike overscale detail that should
not be visible at the scale distances we view from, which includes
brake rigging made up with lengths of ships anchor chain, monster
rivets and 'woodwork' that looks as though it has been used with the
bark still on.

In just about every published photo, if blown up to near HO scale,
there is little or no brake rigging showing, so I can see no point in
adding it to a model of the same car.

At the end of the day, it is horses for courses. It is your model,
you do as you like with it.

Cheers

Barry Bennett


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 11, 2006, at 7:23 AM,Clark Propst rockroll50401 wrote:

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their models?
Clark, Jack Burgess is a perfectionist (some would say he is
compulsive, though I am not one of them). Visit his awesome Yosemite
Valley layout, if you haven't already had the opportunity to do so, and
you'll understand (and envy) the payoff for his perfectionism.

With more than 100 freight car models finished and at least that many
still to build and finish, I observe a somewhat less exacting standard.
If it's visible when the model is on the track, I model it. If it's
not, I don't bother. Shocking though it may seem, I have a number of
flat car and gondola models with deep fishbelly side sills on which
only the brake rods to the trucks are modeled, because that's all a
viewer could ever see unless he picks the model up and turns it over –
and anyone who does that is placing himself at serious risk of physical
harm.

My philosophy is that what I'm trying to do is create the visual
illusion of reality in miniature. I don't expend the effort to do
anything that won't contribute to that objective. For example, my
diorama will have structures on it on which the back walls are flat
pieces of styrene; why models windows and doors and such when no one
will ever be able to see them? For those who find this approach
shocking, all I can say is – get over it.

Richard Hendrickson


armprem
 

Jeff,My more recent cars have full brake gear.Earlier cars do not.My
roster is too large to retrofit all at once.When cars are serviced they most
likely will be upgraded.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "jaley" <jaley@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Kit brakes


On Oct 11, 2:23pm, rockroll50401 wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Kit brakes

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their models?

Clark Propst

Clark,

The only car under which I have put full brake rigging is a
Harriman baggage car (a resin kit from SC&F). The lack of prototype info
(and my own ignorance of passenger brake systems) has made it a real
challenge! The actual modeling wasn't so hard, but figuring out WHAT to
model and WHERE everything went drove me nuts! [With all due respect to
the author of the kit instructions, the instructions are wrong. On top of
that, the prototype diagram supplied happens to not match the car in the
photo that I have].

So far, all my other cars have the stock brake equipment that came
with the kit.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533



Yahoo! Groups Links







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Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Jack is such a demon for detail that I supplied him with some superfluous data that I found earlier this week: that Janet Leigh was born in Merced in 1927.

Richard and many of you know my dirty little secret: the models in my ads only have as much detail as shows. Even the other side usual has another lettering (and perhaps) paint scheme. When I finally get back to building a layout, the rolling stock will only be detailed according to Richard's philosophy.
- Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
Clark, Jack Burgess is a perfectionist (some would say he is
compulsive, though I am not one of them). it.

Richard Hendrickson


Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
If it's visible when the model is on the track, I model it. If it's
not, I don't bother. Shocking though it may seem, I have a number of
flat car and gondola models with deep fishbelly side sills on which
only the brake rods to the trucks are modeled, because that's all a
viewer could ever see unless he picks the model up and turns it over -
and anyone who does that is placing himself at serious risk of physical
harm.<<

This makes perfect sense to me if you are thinking about the cars on a
layout or as a collection -= model what is visible from a normal point of
view. Obviously the standards might be tighter if you are trying to produce
a contest winning model of one car where you could reasonably expect closer
inspection.

Since we are still pretty much obliged to use non scale screws to secure the
trucks, I really think there's no real point in superdetailing the underside
when it wouldn't be seen in normal operations and since the view from below
is going to give the game away anyway - huge, non-scale screw heads are hard
to disguise.

In my view it's a bit like building a theatre set - put in enough to make
the audience or camera believe what you want them to believe or at least
suspend their disbelief from any reasonable viewpoint.

If the view they aren't supposed to see reveals number eight wire, naked
white Styrofoam and yards of string so what? The time is better used for the
things they can see.

That said you need to be careful that you add enough detail and paint so
that the view from under the trestle bridge doesn't reveal acres of
unpainted resin or bare styrene or brake cylinders hanging in mid air.

Aidrian


Charles Hladik
 

Clark,
That's ok. The boys down at the Lodge will give you some more duct tape.
Chuck Hladik


golden1014
 

Clark,

Good post, as always. I have a love-hate relationship with brake
rigging: I hate to do it, but I love when it's done. In fact, I
don't like building up underframes in general. I add the basics,
some rigging, and that's about it. I try to do a complete job on
covered hoppers and hoppers because everything's so visible, and
that's probably why I don't have many of those types of cars.

On a more off-topic note--and you'll enjoy this, Clark--I ran across
a list of all my freight cars that I possessed in 1996. As I went
through that list I couldn't believe my eyes. About 85% of the 1996
models have been sold or traded. Why? In most cases, it's because my
car construction wasn't good enough. Wrong prototypes, wrong era
paint job, and yes no brake rigging. I can thank you and Ted and
Richard and Jack Spencer and other guys for developing my new
standard, as I'm sure it's cost me a few grand for a new/rebuilt
fleet.

Here's the tie-in: Guys like you and Ted and Richard and Ed and
others led me to improve my modeling standards. That required that I
rebuild or replace everything in sight. And if it means putting in
an extra hour to produce more prototypical underframes, then I'm in.
I don't wire up everything, but I do the basics--but "the basics"
has a new definition today than it had in 1996.

Next, Clark, I have to compete with you when I build a layout.
That's going to be a lot tougher than fighting with a fishbelly
underframe for an hour.

See you guys in Naperville.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

I'm working on the Speedwitch NP 50' SS door ½ box car. The body
is
made up of the side, ends, and roof. The underframe fits into the
body very well. I took time to fit different couplers than the kit
was designed for, no problems. The only real challenge to the kit
appears to be the end ladders. They're my next step.

It seems like almost half the kit's written instructions are
devoted
to the brake rigging. On this car with the `fish belly' center
beams
I add the three AB brake components, the two levers that go
through
the center beams, a wire from each lever to end of the car, and a
wire between the cylinder and the AB valve. On other style
underframes I'll add the two pipes between the air tank and valve
and
the link between the two levers. All this fiddling with the brake
rigging consumes almost half of the kit's assembly time. I can't
image the time and swear words it would take to do a more complete
job. I have put the brake rigging that comes with plastic kits on
resin models, a real time saver and they include the same stuff I
would have to fabricate. I don't even drill any holes. I cut all
the
mounting lugs off, lay the piece in place and super glue the crap
out
of everything.

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their
models?

Clark Propst


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Thanks to those who replied. I see I do more than most, but a lot less
than some. It's always good to be in the middle of the pack.

The reason I add what I do is because I paid for the stuff in the kit
and I want to get my moneys worth :) I also like to keep the same level
of detail throughout the layout, engines, structures, scenery, etc. But
some of the stuff I'm just not that intersted in or don't have enough
info to do a more through job of detailing.

Another way to look at it is, how much does a model cost in hobby time?
If I spend $30+ for a resin kit and it takes me 8 hours to finish it
the kit cost me.....(my best Red Green math)....$3.75 a hobby hour. If
I spend $30+ on a RTR model and it takes me 30 seconds to put it on the
layout...Wow, that's $60 a hobby hour!

Clark-I can't wait for the replies on this post-Propst


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Oct 12, 2:51pm, rockroll50401 wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kit brakes
Another way to look at it is, how much does a model cost in hobby time?
If I spend $30+ for a resin kit and it takes me 8 hours to finish it
the kit cost me.....(my best Red Green math)....$3.75 a hobby hour. If
I spend $30+ on a RTR model and it takes me 30 seconds to put it on the
layout...Wow, that's $60 a hobby hour!
No, that's $60 per hobby MINUTE. Multiply by 60 to get dollars per hour.

Of course, this all assumes that your hobby is BUILDING models and not
just OWNING models.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


armprem
 

Like most,my roster has changed over the years.Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model.The question is,are we
carrying all this a little bit too far.After all, whose layout is it?Most
visiting firemen may not know the difference.You can always bring out some
of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "golden1014" <golden1014@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kit brakes


Clark,

Good post, as always. I have a love-hate relationship with brake
rigging: I hate to do it, but I love when it's done. In fact, I
don't like building up underframes in general. I add the basics,
some rigging, and that's about it. I try to do a complete job on
covered hoppers and hoppers because everything's so visible, and
that's probably why I don't have many of those types of cars.

On a more off-topic note--and you'll enjoy this, Clark--I ran across
a list of all my freight cars that I possessed in 1996. As I went
through that list I couldn't believe my eyes. About 85% of the 1996
models have been sold or traded. Why? In most cases, it's because my
car construction wasn't good enough. Wrong prototypes, wrong era
paint job, and yes no brake rigging. I can thank you and Ted and
Richard and Jack Spencer and other guys for developing my new
standard, as I'm sure it's cost me a few grand for a new/rebuilt
fleet.

Here's the tie-in: Guys like you and Ted and Richard and Ed and
others led me to improve my modeling standards. That required that I
rebuild or replace everything in sight. And if it means putting in
an extra hour to produce more prototypical underframes, then I'm in.
I don't wire up everything, but I do the basics--but "the basics"
has a new definition today than it had in 1996.

Next, Clark, I have to compete with you when I build a layout.
That's going to be a lot tougher than fighting with a fishbelly
underframe for an hour.

See you guys in Naperville.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

I'm working on the Speedwitch NP 50' SS door � box car. The body
is
made up of the side, ends, and roof. The underframe fits into the
body very well. I took time to fit different couplers than the kit
was designed for, no problems. The only real challenge to the kit
appears to be the end ladders. They're my next step.

It seems like almost half the kit's written instructions are
devoted
to the brake rigging. On this car with the `fish belly' center
beams
I add the three AB brake components, the two levers that go
through
the center beams, a wire from each lever to end of the car, and a
wire between the cylinder and the AB valve. On other style
underframes I'll add the two pipes between the air tank and valve
and
the link between the two levers. All this fiddling with the brake
rigging consumes almost half of the kit's assembly time. I can't
image the time and swear words it would take to do a more complete
job. I have put the brake rigging that comes with plastic kits on
resin models, a real time saver and they include the same stuff I
would have to fabricate. I don't even drill any holes. I cut all
the
mounting lugs off, lay the piece in place and super glue the crap
out
of everything.

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their
models?

Clark Propst





Yahoo! Groups Links






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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/471 - Release Date: 10/10/06


armprem
 

Like most,my roster has changed over the years.Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model.The question is,are we
carrying all this a little bit too far.After all, whose layout is it?Most
visiting firemen may not know the difference.You can always bring out some
of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "golden1014" <golden1014@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kit brakes


Clark,

Good post, as always. I have a love-hate relationship with brake
rigging: I hate to do it, but I love when it's done. In fact, I
don't like building up underframes in general. I add the basics,
some rigging, and that's about it. I try to do a complete job on
covered hoppers and hoppers because everything's so visible, and
that's probably why I don't have many of those types of cars.

On a more off-topic note--and you'll enjoy this, Clark--I ran across
a list of all my freight cars that I possessed in 1996. As I went
through that list I couldn't believe my eyes. About 85% of the 1996
models have been sold or traded. Why? In most cases, it's because my
car construction wasn't good enough. Wrong prototypes, wrong era
paint job, and yes no brake rigging. I can thank you and Ted and
Richard and Jack Spencer and other guys for developing my new
standard, as I'm sure it's cost me a few grand for a new/rebuilt
fleet.

Here's the tie-in: Guys like you and Ted and Richard and Ed and
others led me to improve my modeling standards. That required that I
rebuild or replace everything in sight. And if it means putting in
an extra hour to produce more prototypical underframes, then I'm in.
I don't wire up everything, but I do the basics--but "the basics"
has a new definition today than it had in 1996.

Next, Clark, I have to compete with you when I build a layout.
That's going to be a lot tougher than fighting with a fishbelly
underframe for an hour.

See you guys in Naperville.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

I'm working on the Speedwitch NP 50' SS door � box car. The body
is
made up of the side, ends, and roof. The underframe fits into the
body very well. I took time to fit different couplers than the kit
was designed for, no problems. The only real challenge to the kit
appears to be the end ladders. They're my next step.

It seems like almost half the kit's written instructions are
devoted
to the brake rigging. On this car with the `fish belly' center
beams
I add the three AB brake components, the two levers that go
through
the center beams, a wire from each lever to end of the car, and a
wire between the cylinder and the AB valve. On other style
underframes I'll add the two pipes between the air tank and valve
and
the link between the two levers. All this fiddling with the brake
rigging consumes almost half of the kit's assembly time. I can't
image the time and swear words it would take to do a more complete
job. I have put the brake rigging that comes with plastic kits on
resin models, a real time saver and they include the same stuff I
would have to fabricate. I don't even drill any holes. I cut all
the
mounting lugs off, lay the piece in place and super glue the crap
out
of everything.

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their
models?

Clark Propst





Yahoo! Groups Links






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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/471 - Release Date: 10/10/06


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

"Been there, done that!". Clark's frustrations about brake detailing certain rang a few bells, and as expected, the varied responses both reflected and went to the heart of the spectrum of how each modeler enjoys his or her own particular participation in the hobby. Although in real time and in de facto real practice, I subscribe to Richard's and Marty's practice of modeling only to that level of detail that can be seen on one's own layout (and my models, by serendipity or otherwise, certainly are Exhibit #1 in this regard), I must also confess that my feelings toward brake detailing has moved from far to the left of Clark's very familiar level of frustration to now far to the right in actually being interested in, and liking such detail modeling.

Very recently, I looked at an ongoing resin modeling project with very deep side sills that was deliberately and completely devoid of any brake detailing (appliances, plumbing or rigging), none of which, if present, could possibly be seen unless the car was overturned. From an original remembered feeling of relief that here was something I could easily skip over, on reexamination sometime later, I simply couldn't stand it and went ahead and happily fabricated a complete brake system.

Just like my MOW outfit bunk car with complete fine interior detailing that no one can possibly perceive or see, this kind of hidden detailing accomplishment only satisfying to its creator can serve very well, if only in memory.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Jack Burgess
 

Armand wrote, with a big grin:

Like most, my roster has changed over the years. Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model. The question is, are
we
carrying all this a little bit too far. After all, whose layout is it?
Most
visiting firemen may not know the difference. You can always bring out
some
of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G>
As free-lance modelers like to point out, it is your layout and you can do
whatever you want. But that is exactly the point....we put away models that
are not up to our current standards, sell models that we later discover
aren't correct for our modeling era, and retire models that we later
discover are incorrectly detailed or lettered based on new data. We do that
because it is our layout and we all have our own personal standards. I
suspect that we would continue to do that even without visitors. Even though
it is "only" a hobby, I like the continuing challenges provided by my
approach to the hobby....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Tony Thompson
 

Denny Anspach wrote:
Just like my MOW outfit bunk car with complete fine interior detailing that no one can possibly perceive or see, this kind of hidden detailing accomplishment only satisfying to its creator can serve very well, if only in memory.
As always, Denny cuts to the heart of the matter. I care far more about what is important to ME, than to any potential layout visitor, when I'm choosing a level of accuracy or detail. Well said, Denny. (And yeah, I have a caboose with interior detail which can't be seen AT ALL.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Jack Burgess
 

Denny wrote:

Just like my MOW outfit bunk car with complete fine interior
detailing that no one can possibly perceive or see, this kind of
hidden detailing accomplishment only satisfying to its creator can
serve very well, if only in memory.
Your comment immediately brought a smile to my face as I recalled one of my
favorite stories. A long-time friend models in On2, made popular at the time
by Bob Brown of the Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette back in the 1970s.
My friend scratch-built a wonderful On2 box car back then, complete with
carlines, transverse tie rods, and beautifully painted and weathered Grandt
Line oil drums inside the box car. After adding the roof, he then glued the
doors onto the car, both in closed positions.....but he knew what was inside
the car!

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., jaley <jaley@...> wrote:
No, that's $60 per hobby MINUTE. Multiply by 60 to get dollars per
hour.
-Jeff
Thanks Jeff, About an hour ago it dawned on me what I had done. I'm
surpised I still have my hide! Good thing I said Red Green math :)
Clark Propst