I was fortunate enough to be able to attend four RPM meets this year.
I heard rumors of a Milwaukee meet this coming April, so thought I'd
offer my thoughts on the meets I attended. Hopefully Mr. B will be
tolerant beings he is involved with an event.

Stan Rydarowicz has been after Mike Moore and me to go to Cocoa Beach
for a couple years. This past January we made the trip. Aside from
being in Florida in January the big plus was the meet's relaxed
atmosphere. Being held in a hotel has the plus of having your living
quarters close to the action, but the big minus of having to leave to
eat. Hotel food is overpriced and usually not that good. I come to
spend my money on the hobby not food. The clinics were only on once,
so you were forced to choose between them. Was a real good time, we
have our plane tickets for the upcoming meet. Rated #2, but very
close to #1 needs more venders and clinics held twice.

Next was the Dakota County meet in the Twin Cities. The one day meet
was held in a SE suburb community center in February. Big plus here
was the auditorium seating for the seminars, huge screen, PA system,
comfortable seats. Down side was by having the meet in Feb the meet
depended on local support. As an `out of towner' I was surprise to
see all the locals pack up and leave by 5:00 pm! This happen all
three years. The other big minus was no venders were allowed, only
display models. Although there were over 100 paid attendees all three
years (almost 200 the second year) I don't think there will be
another meet next year. Rated #4

St Louis in August for me is like the Twin Cities in Feb. to others.
This year the RPM went for one day to two. This brought in more `out
of towners' and venders. This meet was also in a community center
with hotels and restaurants within walking distance. One large room
for venders and displays, this relaxed atmosphere made for a very
good time. Only down side was they held the seminars in a draped off
portion of the large room. I would like to see more seminars held in
separate rooms. Rated #3

Naperville is the Daddy meet. This year there was a half hour between
presentations and a much larger sales room. Big pluses. Again the
meet is in a hotel so you have to leave for food. There are several
places to eat close by. Many folks take advantage of what the large
city has to offer modelers by visiting hobby shops and local layouts
and Polish buffets. This show is always a good time. Rated #1

You gain friendships by attending these shows on a regular basis.
They are as much a social event as an informational meet to me
anymore and I appreciate all the work it takes to put something like
this together. Thanks to all

Clark Propst

On Oct 31, 3:35pm, rockroll50401 wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] RPM meets
I was fortunate enough to be able to attend four RPM meets this year.
I heard rumors of a Milwaukee meet this coming April, so thought I'd
offer my thoughts on the meets I attended. Hopefully Mr. B will be
tolerant beings he is involved with an event.

Stan Rydarowicz has been after Mike Moore and me to go to Cocoa Beach
for a couple years. This past January we made the trip. Aside from
being in Florida in January the big plus was the meet's relaxed
atmosphere. Being held in a hotel has the plus of having your living
quarters close to the action, but the big minus of having to leave to
eat. Hotel food is overpriced and usually not that good. I come to
spend my money on the hobby not food. The clinics were only on once,
so you were forced to choose between them. Was a real good time, we
have our plane tickets for the upcoming meet. Rated #2, but very
close to #1 needs more venders and clinics held twice.

Clark,

Thanks for your feedback on Cocoa Beach (and our #2 rating!) I
would like to point out that many of the clinics were (and will be)
presented twice. We have so many topics that I suspect you were still
unable to see a clinic that you wanted because it conflicted (both times)
with something else.

I think your other comments are right on, and we will try to
improve every year.

See you in January!

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman
Prototype Rails 2007.

P.S. For 2007, we have 5 clinic rooms, and 14 clinic periods (7 per day),
for a total of 70 clinic "slots" and ~50 clinicians. So, about half of
the clinics will be shown twice.

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Clark-
Naperville was excellent, especially if your focus was on freight cars. I was somewhat disappointed in the representation of locomotive and passenger car prototype and modeling. There was a minor issue in not enough space for the Midwest MiNiModuTrak layout to be displayed (it seems like as it turned out room could have been made for it) but on the whole it was another quality event. The Display room needs to be expanded if the attendance keeps on growing. There seemed to be a room intended for impromptu meetings that would better hold the Sunshine Store and allow the room used for it adjacent to the Display room to house more models.
I agree that Cocoa Beach is a more relaxed event, but it comes at the expense of some lesser models and presentations.... some of the NMRA Region content was not up to the standard you see at Naperville. But a good show none the less (even though it was cold as hell in Florida last year!!!).
I haven't been to any of the other RPM meets but they seem to have a wider variety of quality models and presentations from what I gather from the photos and reports posted.
Charlie Vlk




I was fortunate enough to be able to attend four RPM meets this year.
I heard rumors of a Milwaukee meet this coming April, so thought I'd
offer my thoughts on the meets I attended. Hopefully Mr. B will be
tolerant beings he is involved with an event.

Stan Rydarowicz has been after Mike Moore and me to go to Cocoa Beach
for a couple years. This past January we made the trip. Aside from
being in Florida in January the big plus was the meet's relaxed
atmosphere. Being held in a hotel has the plus of having your living
quarters close to the action, but the big minus of having to leave to
eat. Hotel food is overpriced and usually not that good. I come to
spend my money on the hobby not food. The clinics were only on once,
so you were forced to choose between them. Was a real good time, we
have our plane tickets for the upcoming meet. Rated #2, but very
close to #1 needs more venders and clinics held twice.

Next was the Dakota County meet in the Twin Cities. The one day meet
was held in a SE suburb community center in February. Big plus here
was the auditorium seating for the seminars, huge screen, PA system,
comfortable seats. Down side was by having the meet in Feb the meet
depended on local support. As an `out of towner' I was surprise to
see all the locals pack up and leave by 5:00 pm! This happen all
three years. The other big minus was no venders were allowed, only
display models. Although there were over 100 paid attendees all three
years (almost 200 the second year) I don't think there will be
another meet next year. Rated #4

St Louis in August for me is like the Twin Cities in Feb. to others.
This year the RPM went for one day to two. This brought in more `out
of towners' and venders. This meet was also in a community center
with hotels and restaurants within walking distance. One large room
for venders and displays, this relaxed atmosphere made for a very
good time. Only down side was they held the seminars in a draped off
portion of the large room. I would like to see more seminars held in
separate rooms. Rated #3

Naperville is the Daddy meet. This year there was a half hour between
presentations and a much larger sales room. Big pluses. Again the
meet is in a hotel so you have to leave for food. There are several
places to eat close by. Many folks take advantage of what the large
city has to offer modelers by visiting hobby shops and local layouts
and Polish buffets. This show is always a good time. Rated #1

You gain friendships by attending these shows on a regular basis.
They are as much a social event as an informational meet to me
anymore and I appreciate all the work it takes to put something like
this together. Thanks to all

Clark Propst

Naperville 2006's change to the seminars being held at 1.5 hour
intervals was a welcome change as well as the doubling of the sales
room. My observations as follows:

1.) No human stampedes trying to enter a room while others were
trying to exit, due to a lengthy presentation running overtime.

2.) The extra time between seminars now allowed for more trips to
the model room or for some bovine scatology with friends.

3.) Some presenters seized the opportunity to let their lengthy
presentations now run even longer, thus making an already
uncomfortable chair become almost torturous. <grin>

4.) The spacing of chairs in the seminar rooms does not properly
accommodate the width of the average adult underframe.

5.) Room "F" was the only one with properly functioning HVAC and
cool enough temperatures to reduce the high incidence of involuntary
napping.

I am already looking forward to next year and continuing my on-going
education of steam-era freight cars and operations. My thanks to
all the presenters!

Regards,

Tom Wencl

Clark et all,
Being restricted to only one RPM per year(my time will come, but we have 4 urchins that demand time and $-poor planning on my part!) I attend Naperville. While I thought the 1 1/2 hour time between seminars would work well, I was having a hard time staying "awake" in the last 1/2 hour of the ones I attended. Trips to Des Palines and Zentex(sp?) hobbies also interfered with seminar time.

I would like to see the seminars held to 1 hour, with 15 min between time for the room shuffle, and someone to help with the computer setup for those that need it.
My two cents,
Joe Binish

Charlie Vlk wrote:

I agree that Cocoa Beach is a more relaxed event, but it comes at the expense of some lesser models and presentations.... some of the NMRA Region content was not up to the standard you see at Naperville.

You must not have been to many NMRA Regionals recently, Charlie. Naperville far exceeds in quantity and is certainly as good or better in quality than contest models in most if not all regions, and for that matter many NMRA Nationals. And in my experience, the models at Cocoa also considerably exceed in quantity, and approach the quality, of contests at most NMRA regionals, even though as you say, not the equal (yet) of Naperville.
Note I am not referencing "point totals" in NMRA contest scoring, just identifying the overall quality of workmanship and finish in what one sees on the tables. In that area, I speak as an experienced NMRA regional and national model contest judge.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I am enjoying the comments of a number of perceptive attendants from this list at the recent Naperville, and the more distant (but also yet upcoming) Cocoa Beach meets.

I loved the 1-1/2 hour segments at Naperville. Make no mistake, the biggest draw of these meets is the social networking between people of like interests; and as mentioned in this regard, the model display room was packed to the rafters between seminars with participants heating up the atmosphere with endless jawboning. Much of this same, and even more intensive jawboning continues on in the evenings in the lobby, the bar, and in a number of hospitable participants' hotel rooms late into the night. As Clark points out, this is not possible in day meets where the carpet is rolled up at 5:00 PM.

I noted no general difference in display model quality between Naperville and Cocoa- in both cases quality levels that I can still only aspire to.

The seminar seats were terrible, and too often the pain in one's rear end could be more diverting than the seminar subject being addressed (it did tend to keep one from drowsing off, however, - another problem, but usually self-inflicted).

Pick your poison: If meets are held in convenient hotels with requisite facilities that are willing to be afforded by the participants, then do not expect in-house food that is much more than mediocre, and overpriced to boot. Cheap rooms = overpriced food, and adjust expectations accordingly. Because these are not truly top-tier hotels, the kitchen staffs usually experience high turnover, and then commonly with less experienced and creative people.

The food at the Naperville Holiday Inn was both overpriced and truly mediocre- in one case, downright awful- but it *was* very, very convenient. The Cocoa Beach Hilton's food quality was generally better in this regard, no less convenient, but still not great. IMHO, the tradeoff is regrettable, but acceptable.

H-mmm. Perhaps a roach coach lunch wagon at Cocoa, Mike and Jeff? (you guys have nothing better to do over the noon hour anyhow :-) !)

Denny











--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Tony-
I agree with your observations except that I must not have been to many NMRA regionals.
I may have not been to "many" but have been to enough to know what is going on there and in the broader hobby.
Most Model Railroaders don't belong to the NMRA or participate in any PM activity and have different slants on their
enjoyment of the Hobby.
NMRA activities (other than the Prototype Modeler SIG and Operations SIG rooms at Nationals) don't relate to the
quality level of Naperville.
Even when the NMRA Contest Models are excellent, PM models are built from the owner's interest and passion and
are shown for other modelers to appreciate; not to survive some complicated scoring system and get a ribbon or a punch
on a ticket to a certificate. I prefer the spirit of sharing present at PM events rather than the political intrique and
competition of judged contests.
I understand that Cocoa Beach has some NMRA local affiliation, but it is mainly a PM event and is still very worthwhile.
Charlie

Charlie Vlk wrote:

Even when the NMRA Contest Models are excellent, PM models are built from the owner's interest and passion and are shown for other modelers to appreciate; not to survive some complicated scoring system and get a ribbon or a punch on a ticket to a certificate. I prefer the spirit of sharing present at PM events rather than the political intrique and competition of judged contests.

I couldn't agree more, Charlie. Well said. But in all fairness, if one is to conduct a judging, one has to have rules. We could all devise interesting sets of rules; the NMRA has devised one too. The PM meets enjoy the simplification of not having judging, as you aptly state.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I know I could be opening up a can of worms, but I can safely say I enter
models in NMRA contests strictly for the sharing, and I know others do as well.
I do use the possibility of being selected as "high quality" (I hate to use the
term winning) to push myself to better quality and new techniques. Otherwise, I
build to operate on a representation of the real world.

As I have said for years, the NMRA contests and AP are for expanding knowledge
and improving technique, just like RPM. Winning is just an irrelevant bonus.

CJ Riley


--- Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

Tony-
I agree with your observations except that I must not have been to many NMRA
regionals.
I may have not been to "many" but have been to enough to know what is going
on there and in the broader hobby.
Most Model Railroaders don't belong to the NMRA or participate in any PM
activity and have different slants on their
enjoyment of the Hobby.
NMRA activities (other than the Prototype Modeler SIG and Operations SIG
rooms at Nationals) don't relate to the
quality level of Naperville.
Even when the NMRA Contest Models are excellent, PM models are built from the
owner's interest and passion and
are shown for other modelers to appreciate; not to survive some complicated
scoring system and get a ribbon or a punch
on a ticket to a certificate. I prefer the spirit of sharing present at PM
events rather than the political intrique and
competition of judged contests.
I understand that Cocoa Beach has some NMRA local affiliation, but it is
mainly a PM event and is still very worthwhile.
Charlie

____________________________________________________________________________________
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
(http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/)

Tony-
I remember walking around the Contest Room at an NMRA National during judging (somehow they were so wrapped up in their deliberations that they didn't kick me out!!!) and overhearing the judges arguing if the smudges on the side of a drop-dead beautiful scratchbuilt coaling tower were intentional weathering or poor workmanship....and, the conclusion was, since it wasn't noted on the entry form, it must not have been weathering. That kind of "system" (or people's interpretation of it) can ruin any desire to work to get a merit badge!!!
By contrast, there wasn't a model on display at Naperville that I didn't appreciate....and thanks to everyone who brought them and the presentors who spent the time and effort to share the results of their prototype and modeling research in the sessions!!! (It was also fun to see the results of some of my "modeling"....albeit with the help of some Korean and Chinese factory workers... running around on the Midwest ModuTrak layout.... and especially the World's Largest BLI Locomotive...
the ex- DRINW 121 / Ex BN 121 / nee CB&Q 9255 at the Illinois Railway Museum which was recently painted as CB&Q 9255 using my Broadway Limited artwork)!!!
Charlie Vlk

Charlie,
Having judged at NMRA events I find that the "open judging" is
beneficial to the entrant and sightseers. And it sure has improved my modeling!
Sure many will never see operation, but a lot of them will. They are not
just "another pretty face" but highly detailed models. OK, so some are "just
another pretty face" because they will never see the layout, but "popular
voting" just doesn't do justice to the detail.
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division

Charlie Vlk wrote:

I remember walking around the Contest Room at an NMRA National during judging (somehow they were so wrapped up in their deliberations that they didn't kick me out!!!) and overhearing the judges arguing if the smudges on the side of a drop-dead beautiful scratchbuilt coaling tower were intentional weathering or poor workmanship....and, the conclusion was, since it wasn't noted on the entry form, it must not have been weathering . . .

I understand your point, Charlie, but put yourself in the position of a judge. Evaluating by eyeball only is not how the NMRA contest is managed. Like it or not, the NMRA system is an internally consistent one with certain goals.
I don't know which contest you visited, but "open judging," in which anyone is welcome to watch and listen to judging (though not to converse or interject), is applied from time to time. Personally, I am greatly in favor of it. Contestants, present or future, learn an enormous amount by seeing what the judges are trying to do. I'm advocating that you see it in the same light.
Keep in mind that "drop dead beautiful" mostly describes "finish," and such a model may have numerous flaws in workmanship (small ones, evident to judges who examine closely), or in prototype conformity. Whatever the NMRA contest is, it isn't a "Beauty Contest."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Charlie,

FYI...Open judging is the norm at NMRA nationals and many regionals. Folks are
welcome to listen without commenting and it is intendied that they may learn
something. It certainly sounds like the smudge was not obviously weathering,
but it is also possibly due to mediocre judging.

CJ Riley

--- Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

Tony-
I remember walking around the Contest Room at an NMRA National during judging
(somehow they were so wrapped up in their deliberations that they didn't kick
me out!!!) and overhearing the judges arguing if the smudges on the side of a
drop-dead beautiful scratchbuilt coaling tower were intentional weathering or
poor workmanship....and, the conclusion was, since it wasn't noted on the
entry form, it must not have been weathering. That kind of "system" (or
people's interpretation of it) can ruin any desire to work to get a merit
badge!!!
By contrast, there wasn't a model on display at Naperville that I didn't
appreciate....and thanks to everyone who brought them and the presentors who
spent the time and effort to share the results of their prototype and
modeling research in the sessions!!! (It was also fun to see the results of
some of my "modeling"....albeit with the help of some Korean and Chinese
factory workers... running around on the Midwest ModuTrak layout.... and
especially the World's Largest BLI Locomotive...
the ex- DRINW 121 / Ex BN 121 / nee CB&Q 9255 at the Illinois Railway Museum
which was recently painted as CB&Q 9255 using my Broadway Limited artwork)!!!
Charlie Vlk

____________________________________________________________________________________
Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates
(http://voice.yahoo.com)

At 09:21 AM 11/2/2006 -0800, you wrote:

welcome to listen without commenting and it is intendied that they may learn
something. It certainly sounds like the smudge was not obviously weathering,
but it is also possibly due to mediocre judging.

Who judges the judges?

I find life much simpler without them. Based on participation observed, so
do a whole lot of people.

Andy

Andy - As a former judge and contest chairman, the answer is two-fold. New judges work in tandem with experienced ones until judged qualified. Then the chairman, a former judge himself, keeps tabs on the judges to make sure that their work is uniform. Those not up to form are not asked to judge again.

Judging between regions is usually not uniform because the chairman has a lot of say as to how the models are judged within the categories. The first time I viewed the contest results in a region to which I had just moved I saw the difference immediately. A massive 6' long HO through truss bridge took best in show because of its wow factor. Tucked away in a corner was an N 34' wood gondola that was completely and immaculately detailed. I called another transplant from the Northest Region over, an MMR and former judge, to look at the gon. We agreed that according to our system the gon should have won. - Al

Al recalled:

Judging between regions is usually not uniform because the
chairman has a lot of say as to how the models are judged within
the categories. The first time I viewed the contest results in a
region to which I had just moved I saw the difference
immediately. A massive 6' long HO through truss bridge took best
in show because of its wow factor. Tucked away in a corner was
an N 34' wood gondola that was completely and immaculately
detailed. I called another transplant from the Northeast Region
over, an MMR and former judge, to look at the gon. We agreed
that according to our system the gon should have won.

I have to first say that contests, regardless of the opinions of those who
don't like the paperwork or competition, are a good way to improve one's
modeling skills by challenging them to do better and possibly consider other
techniques. That said, I also have to agree with Al that judging is not
uniform. One other reason is that the guidelines (at least back when I was
in charge of PCR/Coast Division judging) require that you "compare" a model
to standard models, which means comparing them to other models normally
entered in contests in your area. Here in the Bay Area, we had modelers such
as Bob Brown (editor of the NG&SLG), Gordon Cannon, Cliff Grant, etc.
entering contests back in the late 1960s and early 1970s when I got into
contest modeling. Thus, the modeling typically seen in contests here were
VERY high. Jim Tangney was also a consistent participant in Bay Area model
contests....he took many National awards with his traction models which were
completely scratchbuilt....trucks, couplers, working windows and doors, etc.
(On one model, everything was scratchbuilt except for the light bulb...he
didn't lose points for that but did get a lot of ribbing. The next year, he
returned with a scratchbuilt light bulb....which worked for a second.)

Anyway, I once asked Jim what was the best score he'd ever received (out of
a maximum score of 125 points). His answer....130 points! It turned out that
he took a model to a local meet somewhere east of the Mississippi while on
the business trip. This region typically judged models as they were received
since they were familiar with all of the modelers, etc. One model had
already been given a score of 125 since it was, apparently, from the local
"best" modeler around and therefore better than the norm in their area.
Well....when Jim brought in one of his totally scratchbuilt traction models
to enter it in their contest, they couldn't change the scores of the other
models but his was obviously superior. Therefore, they had no option but to
give him 130 points so that he would come in first....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Joe and List,

Actually, the seminars are supposed to be one hour with the additional half hour added to keep from stabbing the next persons seminar and still give guys a chance to do whatever is necessary in between the seminars, like go to the john, or to one's room or get to the next seminar on time. Unfortunately, Martin did not separate the seminars time schedule to show the 30 minute down time and some people took advantage of the extratime to stretch through their hour allotment of time.

I had talked with Tricia Lofton after the 2005 Naperville and passed on the complaints about the insufficient time to get from one seminar to the next one and still have time to do personal business in-between. She said at that time, they would look into it and try to modify the scheduling. I see that they did add the time, but will have to delineate the 1 Hour time frame for the seminars with the separate 30 minute grace period in between. If I get to talk with them soon, I will pass the information on regarding this.

Regards,
Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Joseph Binish wrote:

Tom Olsen wrote:

...the seminars are supposed to be one hour with the additional
half hour added to keep from stabbing the next persons seminar
and still give guys a chance to do whatever is necessary in
between the seminars, like go to the john, or to one's room or get
to the next seminar on time. Unfortunately, Martin did not
separate the seminars time schedule to show the 30 minute down
time and some people took advantage of the extra time to stretch
through their hour allotment of time.

It seemed pretty clear (to me, at least) from Martin's instructions to
presenters that the extra half hour was for the audience's benefit,
not the clinician's. Yet one presenter, at the 75-minute mark, glanced
at his watch in response to an increasingly restless audience and
said "Looks like I have another ten minutes". Few of us (maybe none of
us) is so gifted that we can enthrall a room full of people for over
an hour. When people start leaving, or those waiting for the next
presentation start filtering in, it's time to say "thank you" and ask
for questions.

Tom Madden

Tom is right. I haven't always been perfect in this regard, but I do try to
edit my presentations so I can do them in one hour. I wish more presenters
paid attention to Martin's instructions. - Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461