I had a chance last month in Naperville to have a long conversation with Allen Tuten, President of the CofG Histoical Society, about their ventilated boxcar model and the roof as it relates to the time frame of this list. At the same time I also purchased a copy of the April-June 2005 issue of the Society's publication "The Right Way", which has a nice atricle about these cars. Allen acknowledged the model has the as delivered roof and that most of these cars had recieved new roofs by the end of the second world war. Quoting from the article "Records indicate that the CofG began replacing the original Murphy XLA roofs with "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roofs" in the 1930's". I queried Allan about the use of the Hutchen roof on these cars as posted on this list and he was adament that they could find no referrence to Hutchen roofs being used on these cars in the company files. So wanting to build this kit I have two questions for the group:

1) What is a "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roof"? Can I find a picture in a CBC?

2) I could not find Bill Welsh's orginal post(I believe I am correct here) so I am at a loss as to why he though they were re-roofed with a Hutchen's roof. Anyone expand on how we were driven in this direction?

Any and all imput is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA



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Paul, I don't know any tech names of anything other than the Murphy but, I've got photos that show the tops of these cars from the early 1930s and some from the 40s-50s. The roofs all have the same look. The earlier roofs may have been painted wood and the later were painted metal.
Point being: from 30s through to early 50s, they retained the same look. A kinda flat, peaked roof with "batten" strips covering the seems of joints. I'd have to look at the drawing to find the dimentions. I haven found a shot yet, that shows a different style roof.
There is a good "top" view in the newly published book on the Central of Georgia by Jim Goolsby and Al Langley.
Sorry I can't be more help
Don Worthy

cobrapsl@... wrote:
I had a chance last month in Naperville to have a long conversation with Allen Tuten, President of the CofG Histoical Society, about their ventilated boxcar model and the roof as it relates to the time frame of this list. At the same time I also purchased a copy of the April-June 2005 issue of the Society's publication "The Right Way", which has a nice atricle about these cars. Allen acknowledged the model has the as delivered roof and that most of these cars had recieved new roofs by the end of the second world war. Quoting from the article "Records indicate that the CofG began replacing the original Murphy XLA roofs with "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roofs" in the 1930's". I queried Allan about the use of the Hutchen roof on these cars as posted on this list and he was adament that they could find no referrence to Hutchen roofs being used on these cars in the company files. So wanting to build this kit I have two questions for the group:

1) What is a "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roof"? Can I find a picture in a CBC?

2) I could not find Bill Welsh's orginal post(I believe I am correct here) so I am at a loss as to why he though they were re-roofed with a Hutchen's roof. Anyone expand on how we were driven in this direction?

Any and all imput is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA



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Paul,
I think the closest match to this roof is illustrated on page 399 in the 1925 CBC. It's called a "Murphy All-Steel Flexible
Roof", but lacks those little notches at the ends of the ribs, as seen in photos in the April-June "The Right Way". The ribs shown in the CBC appear somewhat flatter and wider than Hutchin's.
I hope this isn't the best guess available for what the proper roof would look like.
Bill Welch's original post was #40592.

Tony and list, here's a few more facts to add this topic.

1.C of G Annual Reports from the late 1930s specifically note that
ventilated box cars were being equipped with "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roofs"

2.CofGa drawings exist for the Murphy... Roof as applied to ventilated box
cars, but none exist (to my knowledge) for any application of the Hutchins on
the CofGa

The Accurail roof (which is said to be an accurate Hutchins Dry Lading roof)
does not match the roof on any photographs of CofGa vent box cars (I pointed
out the different spacing, different type of "edge" bracket, etc.)

I'n no expert by any means but I'm not convinvced that Hutchins roofs were
applied to these cars. We, the CGRHS, want to rerun these cars at a later date
and include the roof updates (whatever thay may be) and the upgraded brake
system. If anyone has information or pictures of these cars please feel free
tha add in your comments. Todd Horton

Oops--forgot to sign that last post
Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

The reason that these cars were thought to have the Hutchins Roof is because of the end caps where the roof meets the car side. Supposedly this is a spotting feature of the Hutchins Roof. I was involved in many conversations about this. The Accurail single sheathed box cars has the Hutchins roof. If you look at any overhead photo the roofs on the C of G cars it does not match the Accurail model. Also several pictures I have looked at of the Central cars show a irregular spacing pattern of the roof panels or sections, they are not all the same width, then compared to the roof on the Accurail model the spacing is even. We need to find more and better roof shots of these cars but the general consensus is they did not receive the Hutchins roof. Todd Horton

Todd Horton wrote:

The reason that these cars were thought to have the Hutchins Roof is because of the end caps where the roof meets the car side. Supposedly this is a spotting feature of the Hutchins Roof. I was involved in many conversations about this. The Accurail single sheathed box cars has the Hutchins roof. If you look at any overhead photo the roofs on the C of G cars it does not match the Accurail model. Also several pictures I have looked at of the Central cars show a irregular spacing pattern of the roof panels or sections, they are not all the same width, then compared to the roof on the Accurail model the spacing is even. We need to find more and better roof shots of these cars but the general consensus is they did not receive the Hutchins roof.

Todd, there was more than one version of the Hutchins roof, and I would hesitate to assume the Accurail model is the most common one.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:30 PM, centga@... wrote:

The reason that these cars were thought to have the Hutchins Roof is because of the end caps where the roof meets the car side. Supposedly this is a spotting feature of the Hutchins Roof. I was involved in many conversations about this. The Accurail single sheathed box cars has the Hutchins roof. If you look at any overhead photo the roofs on the C of G cars it does not match the Accurail model. Also several pictures I have looked at of the Central cars show a irregular spacing pattern of the roof panels or sections, they are not all the same width, then compared to the roof on the Accurail model the spacing is even. We need to find more and better roof shots of these cars but the general consensus is they did not receive the Hutchins roof.

A private message I recently sent to Paul Lyons read, in part:

The question seems to be when/whether they were re-roofed with Hutchins or similar all steel roofs. I have two photos of these cars, one with a 12-49 reweigh date and the other (a ventilated car) with a 1951 reweigh date. Both definitely had steel roofs, when photographed. Neither photo shows the roofs well, but it appears to me that the roofs were not Hutchins (with the dimpled ends on the seam caps) but Chicago-Hutchins Zenith roofs. Part of the confusion may be that in the late 1930s the Standard Railway Equipment Co. acquired Chicago-Hutchins and thereafter produced Hutchins and Zenith roofs as well as various roofs of its own design and tended to apply its long-standing Murphy trade name more or less indiscriminately to all of them.

I will add that, in both of the photos I have, the spacing of the seam caps seems to be even, not irregular.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

The question seems to be when/whether they were re-roofed with Hutchins
or similar all steel roofs. I have two photos of these cars, one with
a 12-49 reweigh date and the other (a ventilated car) with a 1951
reweigh date. Both definitely had steel roofs, when photographed.
Neither photo shows the roofs well, but it appears to me that the roofs
were not Hutchins (with the dimpled ends on the seam caps) but
Chicago-Hutchins Zenith roofs. Part of the confusion may be that in
the late 1930s the Standard Railway Equipment Co. acquired
Chicago-Hutchins and thereafter produced Hutchins and Zenith roofs as
well as various roofs of its own design and tended to apply its
long-standing Murphy trade name more or less indiscriminately to all of
them.

I will add that, in both of the photos I have, the spacing of the seam
caps seems to be even, not irregular.

Richard Hendrickson

One thing to keep in mind is that we are not seeing all the parts of
these roofs when we look at photos. The Hutchins "Dry Lading" roof
consisted of special steel carlines that supported the edges of the
panels, with seam caps that covered the edges being locked to the
carlines with pins and tapered wedges. The heads of these pins are the
"rivets" that show so prominently toward the outer ends of the seam
caps. These were all proprietary design parts, and as far as I know
were not interchangeable with any of the other, similar roof systems.
I have seen drawings of Hutchins Dry Lading seem caps on roofs having
panels without the central stiffening rib, but I'm not sure that it
means that flat panels were really available; the stiffening rib was
not essential to the fit and function of the roof parts, and could
have been omitted from the drawings for that reason alone. As far as I
know, the dimple in the end of the seem cap was consistent with all
Hutchins Dry Lading roofs.

Since someone was using an Accurail roof as an illustration, you might
turn your attention to the roof on the Accurail reefer. This was
modeled from field data obtained from the FGE car preserved in the
Henry Ford Museum, data I was able to gather when I had a friend
working there. I have no written records, but this appears to be a
Chicago – Cleveland or Chicago – Hutchins "Zenith" roof. The outer
appearance is similar to the Hutchins Dry Lading roof, as the system
works in the same fashion; seam caps pinned to the carlines retain the
edges of the roof sheets. However, the pin locations are different,
the seam caps are wider and lack the dimples, and the panels tend to
not have any stiffening ribs. More importantly, looking at the
literature presented in various Cyc.s, this roof was adaptable to the
replacement of light gauge outside metal roofs on existing cars
without removing the entire roof structure; the seam caps could either
be pinned to the carlines OR to brackets fitted to the side plate
inside the car. This makes this a much more likely candidate for use
as a replacement roof on existing cars, exactly as it was used on the
FGE fleet.

Dennis

I think I headed in that direction not knowing there were
alternatives to Hutchins designs that appeared at about the same time
in history. I think I am not alone in jumping to conclusions. (A
little knowledge...) I think I picked this idea up from someone else,
and preceeded to perpetuate the misunderstanding.

I too had a long conversation with Alan at Naperville and he said in
fact that the term "Hutchins" has become so ingrained into the minds
of the CoG group that their board is sort of paranoid about doing
anything regarding the revisions to the existing patterns that would
not replicate a Hutchins design, even though real documentations
point to another design. Hopefully it will sink in that one should
believe what the documents/drawings show, rather than what has been
interpreted from photos.

Dennis has changed the langaueg i use when talking about the FGE
replacement roofs, although I still encounter resistence, some of it
very sure of their insights.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

I had a chance last month in Naperville to have a long

conversation with Allen Tuten, President of the CofG Histoical
Society, about their ventilated boxcar model and the roof as it
relates to the time frame of this list. At the same time I also
purchased a copy of the April-June 2005 issue of the Society's
publication "The Right Way", which has a nice atricle about these
cars. Allen acknowledged the model has the as delivered roof and that
most of these cars had recieved new roofs by the end of the second
world war. Quoting from the article "Records indicate that the CofG
began replacing the original Murphy XLA roofs with "Murphy Pivoted
All Steel Flexible Roofs" in the 1930's". I queried Allan about the
use of the Hutchen roof on these cars as posted on this list and he
was adament that they could find no referrence to Hutchen roofs being
used on these cars in the company files. So wanting to build this kit
I have two questions for the group:

1) What is a "Murphy Pivoted All Steel Flexible Roof"? Can I find a

picture in a CBC?

2) I could not find Bill Welsh's orginal post(I believe I am

correct here) so I am at a loss as to why he though they were re-
roofed with a Hutchen's roof. Anyone expand on how we were driven in
this direction?

Any and all imput is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

The Central of Georgia Railway and Historical Society is not currently
listing the ventilated boxcar on their website. Is it still
available? Those of us who model pre-WWII (yes, there are a few of us
still hanging on) want to know. (I saw the model at
Naperville--beautiful job.)

Greg Smith

On Nov 20, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Since someone was using an Accurail roof as an illustration, you might
turn your attention to the roof on the Accurail reefer. This was
modeled from field data obtained from the FGE car preserved in the
Henry Ford Museum, data I was able to gather when I had a friend
working there. I have no written records, but this appears to be a
Chicago – Cleveland or Chicago – Hutchins "Zenith" roof. The outer
appearance is similar to the Hutchins Dry Lading roof, as the system
works in the same fashion; seam caps pinned to the carlines retain the
edges of the roof sheets. However, the pin locations are different,
the seam caps are wider and lack the dimples, and the panels tend to
not have any stiffening ribs. More importantly, looking at the
literature presented in various Cyc.s, this roof was adaptable to the
replacement of light gauge outside metal roofs on existing cars
without removing the entire roof structure; the seam caps could either
be pinned to the carlines OR to brackets fitted to the side plate
inside the car. This makes this a much more likely candidate for use
as a replacement roof on existing cars, exactly as it was used on the
FGE fleet.

As usual, Dennis contributes some specific and enlightening information
to this discussion. I wasn't aware that the Zenith roof was better
adapted for use as a replacement on existing cars than the Hutchins
roof, and that fact explains why the Zenith roof was widely used to
replace older metal-sheathed roofs. I will add a bit of history which
Dennis implies but does nor specify; the Zenith roof was originally
developed by the Chicago-Cleveland Car Roofing Co. in the early 1920s;
Chicago-Cleveland then merged with the Hutchins Car Roofing Co. in the
1930s to become the Chicago-Hutchins Corp. By 1940, Chicago-Hutchins
had been acquired by the Standard Railway Equipment Co., which then had
virtually a monopoly on the production of freight car roofs. Despite
these ownership changes, the Zenith roof, as well as the
Chicago-Cleveland-designed Viking and Climax roofs and the Hutchins
"Dry Lading" roof, continued to be produced essentially unchanged.
After World War II, SRE simplified its product line by discontinuing
all of the pre-war designs and offering only its own Murphy riveted and
welded steel roofs, either with or without rectangular stiffening
panels (or, later diagonal panels) between the seam caps. Roofs of
earlier design survived for many years, however, on cars that already
had them.

Richard Hendrickson

Greg, The C of G society still has a very limited number of these kits available. Todd Horton