Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I have been reading with great interest the lists put together by Ed Hawkins
and others, and working on some of the numbers we've been discussing over the
months, particularly the box car type summaries that are available on the
steam freight cars site, that includes Ed's list on the AAR '44 cars. That
list says that there were about 73,397 - forty foot "1944 AAR" ('44 AAR) box
cars with " 4/4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends".



I want to make sure I am getting this right. Could anyone tell me if Ed's
list of cars are the ones with consistent, even-tapered corrugations with 4
above the riveted panel joint and 4 below, and confirm that this list does
not include the "R/3/4" "rolling pin" or "R/3/4" "banana taper" ends?



If the numbers are correct, for my time period of roughly 606,623 U.S.
Boxcars in interchange, there would be:



14,180 ARA '32 [2.34%]

89,578 AAR '37 [14.76%]

43,565 AAR '37 modified (5/5 end) [7.18%]

73,397 AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" 4/4 end [12.1%]

Unknown number of AAR '44 - r/3/4 end [ ? % ]

75,070 40' PS-1 [12.38%]

20,332 50' PS-1 [3.35%]



That leaves ~44% of all box cars unaccounted for by this list.



Does anyone have a rough idea of how many forty-foot '44 AAR cars there were
of the rolling pin taper and banana taper styles? How about the 50 footers?
How about the rest? Are there many types unaccounted for that were purchased
by numerous railroads, or are most of the remainder once the above are folded
in unique to each railroad? If remaining wood-sheathed types were only about
1% of my total of 606k, this leaves a lot of cars!



Your insights are greatly appreciated!



Elden Gatwood






Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

I have been reading with great interest the lists put together by Ed Hawkins
and others, and working on some of the numbers we've been discussing over the
months, particularly the box car type summaries that are available on the
steam freight cars site, that includes Ed's list on the AAR '44 cars. That
list says that there were about 73,397 - forty foot "1944 AAR" ('44 AAR) box
cars with " 4/4 Improved Dreadnaught Ends".

I want to make sure I am getting this right. Could anyone tell me if Ed's
list of cars are the ones with consistent, even-tapered corrugations with 4
above the riveted panel joint and 4 below, and confirm that this list does
not include the "R/3/4" "rolling pin" or "R/3/4" "banana taper" ends?

If the numbers are correct, for my time period of roughly 606,623 U.S.
Boxcars in interchange, there would be:

Elden,

What is your time period - post-1960?

According to the ICC, there were 714,568 Boxcars owned by Class I RR's in the US on 12/31/1950; on 12/31/1955, there were 718,950 Boxcars of which 661,194 were General Service and 57,756 Special Service (primarily Auto and Auto Parts Cars - 1955 was the first year in which the ICC broke out General Service and Special Service Boxcars in their statistics); and on 12/31/1956, there were 692,729 Boxcars - 637,829 General Service and 54,900 Special Service.

What year does your percentages below cover? I would think that the percentages you provide would change from year-to-year due to attrition as well as new construction.

Tim Gilbert

14,180 ARA '32 [2.34%]

89,578 AAR '37 [14.76%]

43,565 AAR '37 modified (5/5 end) [7.18%]

73,397 AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" 4/4 end [12.1%]

Unknown number of AAR '44 - r/3/4 end [ ? % ]

75,070 40' PS-1 [12.38%]

20,332 50' PS-1 [3.35%]

That leaves ~44% of all box cars unaccounted for by this list.

Does anyone have a rough idea of how many forty-foot '44 AAR cars there were
of the rolling pin taper and banana taper styles? How about the 50 footers?
How about the rest? Are there many types unaccounted for that were purchased
by numerous railroads, or are most of the remainder once the above are folded
in unique to each railroad? If remaining wood-sheathed types were only about
1% of my total of 606k, this leaves a lot of cars!

.

Hi Elden;

You don't specifiy your time period, but I expect that 3-4% of your
missing cars are PRR X29s, another 3-4% PRR X31/X32 types (tsk, tsk
Eldon, how could YOU skip those! ;~} ), then there are NYC USRA design
steel cars, B&O M15 and M53 wagon tops and M26 ARA cars, etc.

I quess the answer is they are mostly unique to a single or handful of
owners.

Pieter Roos

On Thu, December 7, 2006 1:51 pm, pieter_roos wrote:

You don't specifiy your time period, but I expect that 3-4% of your
missing cars are PRR X29s, another 3-4% PRR X31/X32 types

Pieter,

I think your point that the remaining 44% may be mostly made up of unique
or home built cars iw well taken. However, I'm not sure I would equate
the numbers of X29s with the sum of the X31/32 classes at any time point
after the cars were built (until of course they were all gone, well after
the time frame of this list).

In 1939, the ratio of X29s to X31/32 classes is above 5:1. Just before
this list loses interest, in 1959, the ratio of X29s to X31/32 is still
better than 3:1. Even 9 years after our list's cutoff date, the ratio is
6:1, albeit with many fewer of both classes. So, if 3-4% of the missing
cars are X29s then about 0.75-1% might be X31s and X32s.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Pieter;

You don't specifiy your time period, but I expect that 3-4% of your

missing cars are PRR X29s, another 3-4% PRR X31/X32 types (tsk, tsk
Eldon, how could YOU skip those! ;~} ), then there are NYC USRA design
steel cars, B&O M15 and M53 wagon tops and M26 ARA cars, etc.

I model just after the time cut off for this group, so I didn't want to go
there. I model 1962-66. However, see below...

I quess the answer is they are mostly unique to a single or handful of

owners. Pieter Roos



I would agree but for the exception of these later '44 AAR types. Which were
REALLY numerous.



By my time, most of the X29's were deadlined. But, your point is well-taken!
Out of the ~606k box cars I counted out of the ORER of Jan'64, there were
only ~2125 X29's left (but with stacks of them in deadlines all over the
system), 4344 X29B's, 4016 X29D's, 6404 single door X31A (over 1% of ALL box
cars in interchange in the U.S.!), 578 double door X31A, 1132 X31B, 1464
X37B, and lots of X43 classes. These I have accounted for in my own
material, but I should have broken those out.



My question is till, what about the vast numbers of later '44 AAR types, that
did not make it onto Ed Hawkins' list. What were their numbers?



I guess if no one finds the subject interesting, I will have to go reconcile
photos and ORER number series', but I was hoping someone had already delved
into this subject. I will also try to dig into the numbers of the other
types you mention, but I noted that the NYC USRA cars were also in serious
decline, as were the B&O M-15K and M26 types.



I will let you know what I find out!



Elden



BTW, if anyone is interested in some of this data, just ask....

14,180 ARA '32 [2.34%]

89,578 AAR '37 [14.76%]

43,565 AAR '37 modified (5/5 end) [7.18%]

73,397 AAR '44 10'4"-10'6" 4/4 end [12.1%]

Unknown number of AAR '44 - r/3/4 end [ ? % ]

75,070 40' PS-1 [12.38%]

20,332 50' PS-1 [3.35%]



That leaves ~44% of all box cars unaccounted for by this list.



Does anyone have a rough idea of how many forty-foot '44 AAR cars

there were

of the rolling pin taper and banana taper styles? How about the 50

footers?

How about the rest? Are there many types unaccounted for that were

purchased

by numerous railroads, or are most of the remainder once the above

are folded

in unique to each railroad? If remaining wood-sheathed types were

only about

1% of my total of 606k, this leaves a lot of cars!



Your insights are greatly appreciated!



Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tim;

You are correct, it is for Jan 1964, but I mentioned no car types, other than
late PS-1's that would have been produced post-~'55 or so. You are also
correct that there was enormous attrition in the SS and USRA and X29 types,
but my question was really how many non-4/4 End AAR '44 cars were produced.
I know it is enormous (as one could not fail to notice staring at freight
trains for all those years), but I have seen nothing that quantifies that
huge box car type, in print. Is this because few folks on this list are
interested in anything post 1950 or so?



Here is a table that may violate the list guidelines for discussion, but I
hope those interested can extract the pre-1960 facts, like the numbers of
cars produced. There would have been a very small percentage of these lost
through wreck damage, but certainly the USRA and X29-era cars were going
fast. However, the '32 ARA and later cars were still around at probably 99%
of their original numbers. One interesting fact is that the PRR X43
classes, which total 6,358 cars on that date (a small number having been
scrapped due to wreck damage), is about 1% of the entire US box car fleet.
Ditto for the X31A single door cars. And that would also have been pretty
much true for your 1955 date total for box cars. Those are significant
numbers, and I had not realized just how significant.



Pieter's point about "signature" box cars is certainly true, but even with
the NYC, PRR, B&O and other "single user" box cars extracted, there are still
a LOT of box cars that fail to fall into any of these (but for the late AAR
'44) categories.



Box Car Type Statistics - Jan 1964


Car Type

Number

Percentage of Total


USRA Single-Sheathed Box Cars and other SS cars

?

<1% (<6,000)


PRR X29

2,125

0.3%


PRR X31A single door

6,404

1.1%


NYC USRA steel cars

?

?


ARA '32 Type

14,180

2.34%


AAR'37

89,578

14.76%


PRR X37B

1,463

0.25%


AAR '37 Modified (5/5 End)

43,565

7.18%


AAR '44 w/ 4/4 End (10'4" - 10'6" IH)

73,397

12.1%


AAR '44 w/R/3/4 End (10'6" IH)

Includes PRR X43 classes

? total

PRR - 6,358

?

(PRR - ~1.1%)


PS-1 - 40'

75,070

12.38%


PS-1 - 50'

20,332

3.35%









TOTAL

606,623

100%



What do you guys find for your timeframes? What are your breakdowns?

Elden Gatwood



.


<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/msgId=
58397/stime=1165519597/nc1=3848620/nc2=3848446/nc3=4025373>



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tim;

You are correct, it is for Jan 1964, but I mentioned no car types, other than
late PS-1's that would have been produced post-~'55 or so. You are also
correct that there was enormous attrition in the SS and USRA and X29 types,
but my question was really how many non-4/4 End AAR '44 cars were produced.
I know it is enormous (as one could not fail to notice staring at freight
trains for all those years), but I have seen nothing that quantifies that
huge box car type, in print. Is this because few folks on this list are
interested in anything post 1950 or so?

Elden,

According to the ICC's records, the December 31st total Boxcars owned by Class I US RR's between 1955 and 1965 were the following - showing the split of general service vs. special service:

Year . . . Gen'l Serv. . . . Spec. Serv. . . . Total Boxcars
1955 . . . 661,594 . . . . . 57,756 . . . . . . 719,350
1956 . . . 673,747 . . . . . 53,912 . . . . . . 727,569
1957 . . . 685,330 . . . . . 53,624 . . . . . . 738,954
1958 . . . 672,302 . . . . . 52,553 . . . . . . 724,955
1959 . . . 654,718 . . . . . 52,848 . . . . . . 707,566
1960 . . . 637,829 . . . . . 54,900 . . . . . . 692,729
1961 . . . 608,367 . . . . . 56,565 . . . . . . 664,932
1962 . . . 577,106 . . . . . 62,354 . . . . . . 639,460
1963 . . . 545,751 . . . . . 71,611 . . . . . . 617,362
1964 . . . 515,123 . . . . . 81,220 . . . . . . 596,343
1965 . . . 479,201 . . . . 102,884 . . . . . . 582,085

Note: These do not include boxcars owned by the Canadian roads (e.g. CN, CP, PGE, etc.), but do include cars owned by US subsidiaries of those Canadian roads (e.g. GTW, CV, SOO, etc.).

The number of General Service Boxcars peaked in 1957 (for the 1955-65 period), but, after the 1958 recession, the number fell. Between 1961 and 1965, there was a 21.2% decline in General Service Boxcars - most of them probably being the older pre-War and pre-Depression cars like the X29's and NYC Steel USRA clones. Many other roads sold and leased back much of their pre-Depression Fleet in the mid-1950's, and by the mid-1960's, those leases were terminated.

Meanwhile, the number of Special Service Boxcars on 12/31/1965 were 81.9% more than they were on 12/31/1961 which may be an indication that newly built boxcars were predominantly special service cars - the average nominal capacity for the national special service boxcar fleet increased from 49.9 tons/car on 12/31/1961 to 58.8 tons/car on 12/31/1965. Some of the increase may have been due to the 1962 revision of standard nominal capacities for a given truck size, but most of that increase should have been due to the new construction of special service boxcars getting "70-ton" trucks.

Any discussion ought to continue of the "Baby Boomers Freight Car Group" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/bbfcl/

Tim Gilbert

Here is a table that may violate the list guidelines for discussion, but I
hope those interested can extract the pre-1960 facts, like the numbers of
cars produced. There would have been a very small percentage of these lost
through wreck damage, but certainly the USRA and X29-era cars were going
fast. However, the '32 ARA and later cars were still around at probably 99%
of their original numbers. One interesting fact is that the PRR X43
classes, which total 6,358 cars on that date (a small number having been
scrapped due to wreck damage), is about 1% of the entire US box car fleet.
Ditto for the X31A single door cars. And that would also have been pretty
much true for your 1955 date total for box cars. Those are significant
numbers, and I had not realized just how significant.

Pieter's point about "signature" box cars is certainly true, but even with
the NYC, PRR, B&O and other "single user" box cars extracted, there are still
a LOT of box cars that fail to fall into any of these (but for the late AAR
'44) categories.

Box Car Type Statistics - Jan 1964

Car Type

Number

Percentage of Total

USRA Single-Sheathed Box Cars and other SS cars

?

<1% (<6,000)

PRR X29

2,125

0.3%

PRR X31A single door

6,404

1.1%

NYC USRA steel cars

?

?

ARA '32 Type

14,180

2.34%

AAR'37

89,578

14.76%

PRR X37B

1,463

0.25%

AAR '37 Modified (5/5 End)

43,565

7.18%

AAR '44 w/ 4/4 End (10'4" - 10'6" IH)

73,397

12.1%

AAR '44 w/R/3/4 End (10'6" IH)

Includes PRR X43 classes

? total

PRR - 6,358

?

(PRR - ~1.1%)

PS-1 - 40'

75,070

12.38%

PS-1 - 50'

20,332

3.35%

TOTAL

606,623

100%

What do you guys find for your timeframes? What are your breakdowns?

Elden Gatwood

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/msgId= <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/msgId=>
58397/stime=1165519597/nc1=3848620/nc2=3848446/nc3=4025373>


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Hi Elden:

I just sent you some post-group info to your ACE address. If you would like it sent to another, let me know.

KL

On Dec 8, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

My question is till, what about the vast numbers of later '44 AAR
types, that
did not make it onto Ed Hawkins' list. What were their numbers?

Elden,
I have compiled rosters of various 10'-6" IH postwar AAR box cars built
from 1948 and later with various versions of Improved Dreadnaught Ends
(IDE) used after the 4/4 arrangement. Some of the rosters have been
published in Railmodel Journal, including cars with so-called "dartnot"
ends (see Oct. 1990 RMJ) and the late-version R+3/4 IDE used beginning
in 1955. I have also compiled a roster of AAR box cars with the earlier
R+3/4 IDE (i.e., main corrugations having the rolling pin appearance),
however, I have yet to publish it. I'm considering an article on this
subject in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia. If not there, perhaps in
Railmodel Journal. There were a few other AAR-style box cars using
other proprietary ends, such as the AC&F 4/4 ends used on several
series of Reading, M-K-T, and DT&I box cars.

Roads having the early-version R+3/4 IDE include AA, ACL, BAR (plug
door insulated box cars), C&EI, C&S, C&WC, CB&Q, CNJ, CP, DT&I, Erie,
FW&D, GM&O, GN, GTW, IC, I-GN, ITC, LV, MP, NH (plug doors), NJI&I, NP,
NYC, P&LE, PRR, RDG, Soo Line, SP&S, StLB&M, T&P, UP, WAB, and WM. Some
of these cars had overhanging roofs. Quite a few models representing
these prototype cars have been offered by Branchline Trains. My count
of prototype AAR box cars having early-version R+3/4 IDE is about
48,000 and the cars were built from 1948 to 1954. In addition to the
above list, there were also the unique "box cars" for carrying
cryogenic gases (see RP CYC Vol. 14), although these cars all had small
doors in the ends, roof hatches, and were classified as tank cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Ed;

Thanks so much for that info! And, sorry for the late reply; I was out of
town.



That is very interesting data, and I am very much looking forward to your
article(s) on the subject.



We all very much appreciate all the research you do on these subjects.



Take care,



Elden Gatwood



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Ed
Hawkins
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:27 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Numbers of '44 AAR cars, and others (UNCLASSIFIED)




On Dec 8, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

My question is till, what about the vast numbers of later '44 AAR
types, that
did not make it onto Ed Hawkins' list. What were their numbers?

Elden,
I have compiled rosters of various 10'-6" IH postwar AAR box cars built
from 1948 and later with various versions of Improved Dreadnaught Ends
(IDE) used after the 4/4 arrangement. Some of the rosters have been
published in Railmodel Journal, including cars with so-called "dartnot"
ends (see Oct. 1990 RMJ) and the late-version R+3/4 IDE used beginning
in 1955. I have also compiled a roster of AAR box cars with the earlier
R+3/4 IDE (i.e., main corrugations having the rolling pin appearance),
however, I have yet to publish it. I'm considering an article on this
subject in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia. If not there, perhaps in
Railmodel Journal. There were a few other AAR-style box cars using
other proprietary ends, such as the AC&F 4/4 ends used on several
series of Reading, M-K-T, and DT&I box cars.

Roads having the early-version R+3/4 IDE include AA, ACL, BAR (plug
door insulated box cars), C&EI, C&S, C&WC, CB&Q, CNJ, CP, DT&I, Erie,
FW&D, GM&O, GN, GTW, IC, I-GN, ITC, LV, MP, NH (plug doors), NJI&I, NP,
NYC, P&LE, PRR, RDG, Soo Line, SP&S, StLB&M, T&P, UP, WAB, and WM. Some
of these cars had overhanging roofs. Quite a few models representing
these prototype cars have been offered by Branchline Trains. My count
of prototype AAR box cars having early-version R+3/4 IDE is about
48,000 and the cars were built from 1948 to 1954. In addition to the
above list, there were also the unique "box cars" for carrying
cryogenic gases (see RP CYC Vol. 14), although these cars all had small
doors in the ends, roof hatches, and were classified as tank cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins






Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE