PE and CGW cars


John Hitzeman
 

Hi Steve,

As my old buddy, Tim Gilbert knows, I have a pretty fair collection
of info on the Pacific Electric.

If you're interested, I can probably dig up some roster information
for you.

Let me know off-list.

Regards,
John Hitzeman


sc279373 <sccooper@...>
 

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Steve,

To answer your question rather broadly -

Yes for Boxcars in roughly the same proportion as the percentage of PE and CGW-owned boxcars of the National Boxcar fleet, but, for other car types, it would be a very rare instance.

Tim Gilbert

sc279373 wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve


original_coaster <sfdanas@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "sc279373" <sccooper@...> wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following
question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve
Steve --
Actually, I believe I'm the new(er) boy on the block, at least as far
as this forum goes. To your question, however, I think there's both a
long and short answer.

Short answer: Yes, theoretically, depending on what was being shipped
and where it was being shipped. Although a freightcar was normally
supposed to be sent back to its home road as quickly and directly as
possible, some cars stayed "on the road" for most of their careers as
freight agents used them to fill local needs when they became
available. It was generally more desirable to load a car for its
return trip than to "deadhead" it. (There were exceptions, of course.)

Slightly longer answer: It would depend on what era you're modeling,
since both PE and Chicago Great Western were absorbed into other
railroads. Pacific Electric came under Southern Pacific control early
on, although it continued to run more or less autonomously for a
number of years thereafter. (The problem there is determining at what
point it ceased to gain new equipment -- and I'm not sure how many
cars it had in the first place -- and at what point the equipment was
either retired or repainted into SP.) I suspect the time element
would be more forgiving in the case of CGW, although I could just as
easily be wrong there.

I hope I haven't simply served to confuse the issue for you.

-- Paul Dana
San Francisco


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Steve,

At through the 1950s the PE was one of California's major freight roads, at least in terms of car loadings. They had a modest fleet of several hundred freight cars of many types (for your interest, chiefly SP-clone 40' single-sheathed boxcars which went everywhere). In Tony's SP boxcar book, there are shots of one in Pennsylvania, apparently damaged and repaired by the PRR. IIRC, most of the PE fleet was relettered SP in 1956. Sunshine has offered a nice resin kit for their SS boxcars, which includes their unusual outside-hung brake rigging (for those tight traction curves).

The CGW was a moderately large carrier, and owned a fair-sized fleet of cars of all types. Their boxcars and RBLs especially went just about everywhere.

Hope this general stuff is of use.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

sc279373 wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Dana wrote:
Slightly longer answer: It would depend on what era you're modeling, since both PE and Chicago Great Western were absorbed into other railroads. Pacific Electric came under Southern Pacific control early on, although it continued to run more or less autonomously for a number of years thereafter. (The problem there is determining at what point it ceased to gain new equipment -- and I'm not sure how many cars it had in the first place -- and at what point the equipment was either retired or repainted into SP.)
Paul, I don't think "SP control" was the issue. The PE was in many ways independently operated, as you say, until the 1950s. The PE freight car fleet "leaked away" to parent SP over decades, but as late as the late 1920s was pretty substantial and was still receiving new cars. It was in the 1950s that most of the active PE freight cars were transferred to SP ownership and, usually, relettered. Information about individual PE car types and their histories is in my series on SP freight cars, so far up to four volumes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


charles slater
 

In the new Larry Kline and Ted Culotta book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" on page 46 there is a picture of P.E. 2770 in Harrisburg, Pa. on July 19, 1947.
Charlie Slater

From: "sc279373" <sccooper@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] PE and CGW cars
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:47:57 -0000

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve
_________________________________________________________________
View Athlete�s Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01


al_brown03
 

*And*, on p 69 there's a picture of CGW 91083, in Frederick, Md., on
6 Oct '46. So cars from both CGW and PE made it out East.

To summarize several comments from this thread and others, the point
is that boxcars in general service wandered all over. If you're
modeling an Eastern line, one probably didn't see a *lot* of cars
from smaller roads far away, but were there *some*? Sure. If you
have a PE car and a CGW car, of the right era, it's almost certainly
close-enough-to-prototypic to run them; but unless your fleet is
*huge*, I don't think I'd go on to add a Northwestern Pacific car, a
Mississippi Central car, a KO&G car, and a Hannibal Connecting car.
Unless there's specific documentation that they visited your line,
of course.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "charles slater" <atsfcondr42@...>
wrote:

In the new Larry Kline and Ted Culotta book "The Postwar Freight
Car Fleet"
on page 46 there is a picture of P.E. 2770 in Harrisburg, Pa. on
July 19,
1947.
Charlie Slater

From: "sc279373" <sccooper@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] PE and CGW cars
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:47:57 -0000

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following
question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)
be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve
_________________________________________________________________
View Athlete's Collections with Live Search
http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?
source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

al_brown03 wrote:

*And*, on p 69 there's a picture of CGW 91083, in Frederick, Md., on
6 Oct '46. So cars from both CGW and PE made it out East.

To summarize several comments from this thread and others, the point
is that boxcars in general service wandered all over. If you're
modeling an Eastern line, one probably didn't see a *lot* of cars
from smaller roads far away, but were there *some*? Sure. If you
have a PE car and a CGW car, of the right era, it's almost certainly
close-enough-to-prototypic to run them; but unless your fleet is
*huge*, I don't think I'd go on to add a Northwestern Pacific car, a
Mississippi Central car, a KO&G car, and a Hannibal Connecting car.
Unless there's specific documentation that they visited your line,
of course.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.












Between 1940 and 1960, the CGW owned between 3,000 and 4,000 boxcars. Of the approximate 720,000 boxcars owned nationally, that means that there was one CGW boxcar for every 180-240 boxcars. That means that one out of every 180-240 foreign boxcars on a line would be one owned by the CGW.

What the percentage of home road boxcars on line would depend on 1) whether the branch, division or road originated more traffic than was terminated ( or vice versa); and 2) whether the economy was booming or in recession.

Regarding Originated vs. Terminated, if a road terminated more carloadings than they originated, the supply of empty boxcars for reloadings could come from those boxcars which had just been unloaded. This reloading would have been in compliance with Interchange Rule #1 - to wit, to give precedence to loading of foreign-owned empty cars to the extent possible. The rule to route reloaded foreign boxcars only in the direction of their home road was largely ignored.

If a road originated more boxcar carloadings than were terminated as there would be with the seasonal grain rush and the rural lumber loadings, then a supply of empties would have to be brought into the area where the carloadings were originated. Since home road boxcars were considered as a strategic reserve to be used only when all other alternatives had been considered, there would be a much higher percentage of home road boxcars on line than there would be if more boxcars were terminated than originated on line.

In both New Jersey and Pennsylvania, more boxcar carloadings were terminated than originated.

Because of Customs restrictions, there was not a free flow of Canadian boxcars in America. To load a Canadian car in America, the Canadian car had to be terminated in or routed through Canada; thus, the percentage of Canadian boxcars on an American line would be greater on lines closer to the US-Canada border than on lines further away. Mexican boxcars in the US were a non-factor.

Regarding the effect upon the home road percentage of boxcars on line of the state of the economy, if the economy was booming, then the home road percentage of boxcars on line would be lower than would be the case if the economy was in recession. There were not enough reloads available in a recession so the empty boxcars would be routed home to avoid unnecessary per diem charges.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert




Jerry Dziedzic
 

To summarize several comments from this thread and others, the
point
is that boxcars in general service wandered all over. > > Al
Brown,
Melbourne, Fla.
Between 1940 and 1960, the CGW owned between 3,000 and 4,000
boxcars.
Of
the approximate 720,000 boxcars owned nationally, that means that
there
was one CGW boxcar for every 180-240 boxcars. That means that one
out
of
every 180-240 foreign boxcars on a line would be one owned by the
CGW.
Gilbert
I've snipped all but these two remarks, but it's not my intention to
single them out or to take them out of context.

This is always an interesting discussion. We've all exchanged much
data and many different views of conclusions to draw from that data.
However, I don't recall reading any comments about the following.

How do we factor in a shipper and consignee pair? Some examples that
I'm thinking of: a steel mill in Oregon uses anthracite from eastern
Pennsylvania. I believe it likely that home road cars -- let's say
RDG -- would cover this move. An oak flooring manufacturer in
Arkansas
ships to a loyal distributor in Pennsylvania. Still likely that a
home
road car -- now let's pick T&P -- is used, though perhaps not as
likely
as in the first example. Auto parts move from the midwest to an
assembly plant in New Jersey -- Wabash and DT&I cars.

The first two examples may produce only a couple of cars per week,
insignificant in the national statistics but repeatable and
noticeable
on the specific delivering road. The auto parts example might
produce
10-20 cars per day, still insignificant nationally but significant on
the delivering road.

The national averages are useful in predicting general patterns, but
quickly become secondary to the particulars of a given
locality and the road that serves it.

I suppose I've just state the obvious, but this hasn't stopped me in
the past and I'd enjoy having others comment.


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 13, 2006, at 10:08 AM, Jerry Dziedzic wrote:

How do we factor in a shipper and consignee pair? Some examples that
I'm thinking of: a steel mill in Oregon uses anthracite from eastern
Pennsylvania. I believe it likely that home road cars -- let's say
RDG -- would cover this move.
Sorry to pick nits, Jerry, but there were no - zero - steel mills in Oregon. The biggest western steel mills, established during WW II to diversify steel production geographically in the event of air attacks, were in Utah and Southern California, and both used Utah coal. There were small, highly specialized steel operations in Southern Calif. and in the San Francisco Bay area which occasionally - VERY occasionally - received carloads of eastern met coal, but that traffic probably accounted for less than twenty car loads a year. Eastern coal simply wasn't shipped to the west coast, and in any case small users of coal in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars, so what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas.

An oak flooring manufacturer in Arkansas ships to a loyal
distributor in Pennsylvania. Still likely that a home road car --
now let's pick T&P -- is used, though perhaps not as likely
as in the first example. Auto parts move from the midwest to an
assembly plant in New Jersey -- Wabash and DT&I cars.
Oak flooring could have been shipped in any XM box car that happened to be handy. Empty home road cars (T&P, SSW, MoPac) might have been more numerous in Arkansas, but there's abundant evidence that yard crews typically assigned box cars to a particular shipper mostly on the basis of which ones were first out on the storage track. Car service rules about returning foreign road empties in the general direction of their owners were also a factor, though apparently not a very strong one. Given their numbers in the total box car fleet, a PRR or NYC car would have been as likely as a home road car to carry that oak flooring.

As for auto parts cars, especially those with special loading fixtures installed, they were typically assigned to pools in which each major RR over which the cars were routed contributed cars, so parts bound for New Jersey would often have been loaded in assigned pool cars owned by the Pennsy, Lehigh Valley, Erie, etc., though Wabash, DT&I, Pere Marquette, New York Central, and other RRs where the traffic originated were usually contributors to such pools as well.

I understand the point your trying to make, and my cavils don't entirely invalidate it, but by now it should be clear that assembling a prototypically plausible freight car fleet is a lot more complicated than model railroaders have generally recognized (or than many model railroaders want to admit).

Richard Hendrickson


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Al Brown wrote:

To summarize several comments from this thread and others, the
point
is that boxcars in general service wandered all over.
Tim Gilbert responded:


Between 1940 and 1960, the CGW owned between 3,000 and 4,000
boxcars.
Of
the approximate 720,000 boxcars owned nationally, that means that
there
was one CGW boxcar for every 180-240 boxcars. That means that one
out
of
every 180-240 foreign boxcars on a line would be one owned by the
CGW.
Jerry Dziedzic added:

I've snipped all but these two remarks, but it's not my intention to
single them out or to take them out of context.

This is always an interesting discussion. We've all exchanged much
data and many different views of conclusions to draw from that data.
However, I don't recall reading any comments about the following.

How do we factor in a shipper and consignee pair? Some examples that
I'm thinking of: a steel mill in Oregon uses anthracite from eastern
Pennsylvania. I believe it likely that home road cars -- let's say
RDG -- would cover this move.
Assuming that this anthracite was shipped in hoppers, I agree that one owned by the RDG would be used. But what happens to the RDG once unloaded in Oregon? It probably would have returned to the RDG because the probability that it would be reloaded en route east was small. If the anthracite shipment was in a boxcar, the probability that it would be reloaded with another commodity like lumber before it went very far eastward was a lot greater. You should note that my piece was about boxcars, and not hoppers!

An oak flooring manufacturer in
Arkansas
ships to a loyal distributor in Pennsylvania. Still likely that a
home
road car -- now let's pick T&P -- is used, though perhaps not as
likely
as in the first example.
I doubt that a home road boxcar was used unless there were no foreign boxcars available for the loading of the flooring. If a gondola was used, then there would be a greater probability that it would be owned by the home road. 75% of the Boxcar Miles in the 1940-60 era were loaded versus about 60% of the gondola car miles - the hopper car loaded mile percentage was around 55%.

Auto parts move from the midwest to an
assembly plant in New Jersey -- Wabash and DT&I cars.
The auto companies may have been adamant about the return of empties to their plants, but those cars were contributed by a pool of owners and the auto companies were not particular of whose car went where. Thus, if ATSF, UP, DT&I and WAB auto part boxcars were part of the pool, then the probability of a car going to a New Jersey assembly plant would be in proportion to the number of cars a road contributed to the pool.


The first two examples may produce only a couple of cars per week,
insignificant in the national statistics but repeatable and
noticeable
on the specific delivering road. The auto parts example might
produce
10-20 cars per day, still insignificant nationally but significant on
the delivering road.

The national averages are useful in predicting general patterns, but
quickly become secondary to the particulars of a given
locality and the road that serves it.
Jerry's observation about particulars of a given locality and the road that serves assumes that Interchange Rule #1 giving precedence to loading foreign car empties was largely ignored. If Rule #1 was ignored, the loaded car mile percentage of total car miles would have been 50%. Boxcars could carry a number of commodities while hoppers could only carry a few; thus, the difference in the loaded car mile percentages of boxcars around 75% and hoppers 55%.

I suppose I've just state the obvious, but this hasn't stopped me in
the past and I'd enjoy having others comment.
Never use the word "obvious" because it advises the listener that he is an idiot. And this idiot disagrees with you Jerry adamantly because you have not established a rationale of why the home road would force home road boxcars upon its shippers. Instead, those home roads provided boxcars which were available - the vast majority of those boxcars were foreign road empties. The supply of foreign road hoppers may have been as great, but there were far less shippers on a non-coal home road who could reload these empty hoppers.

Tim Gilbert


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars, so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas<
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of summers at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in hoppers but have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from. They may have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace also, to add carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
Not sure how old the mill was but was told in the early days they had an 0-4-0 steamer. When they switched to worn out diesels the steamer went in the furnace and came out rebar.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jon Miller wrote:
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of summers
at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in hoppers but
have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from. They may
have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace also, to add
carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
No, no, no. The process of making steel REMOVES carbon from crude iron. In a remelt shop, which I assume Jon is talking about, one certainly does not want to add carbon to the metal. The coal (or coke) reacts with oxygen-bearing parts of the melt to make CO2. If they were really reducing iron, coke is a natural component. If they were making steel, the carbon would only be, along with any flux added, used to control slag formation.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


al_brown03
 

Union City, what state?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@...> wrote:

small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars,
so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas<
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of
summers
at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in
hoppers but
have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from.
They may
have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace
also, to add
carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
Not sure how old the mill was but was told in the early days
they had an
0-4-0 steamer. When they switched to worn out diesels the steamer
went in
the furnace and came out rebar.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


abmarr2
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PE and CGW cars


On Dec 13, 2006, at 10:08 AM, Jerry Dziedzic wrote:

> How do we factor in a shipper and consignee pair? Some examples that
> I'm thinking of: a steel mill in Oregon uses anthracite from eastern
> Pennsylvania. I believe it likely that home road cars -- let's say
> RDG -- would cover this move.

Sorry to pick nits, Jerry, but there were no - zero - steel mills in
Oregon. The biggest western steel mills, established during WW II to
diversify steel production geographically in the event of air attacks,
were in Utah and Southern California, and both used Utah coal. There
were small, highly specialized steel operations in Southern Calif. and
in the San Francisco Bay area which occasionally - VERY occasionally -
received carloads of eastern met coal, but that traffic probably
accounted for less than twenty car loads a year. Eastern coal simply
wasn't shipped to the west coast, and in any case small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars, so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas.


Recent Activity
a.. 3New Members
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Richard,
What you say about eastern coal shipments is mostly true but there .is always the exception.
I have been intriguided by the NYC hopper loaded with coal headed for Oregon,probably for a foundryon page 72 of Bowden and Dill's Modoc book. To paraphrase the caption if my memory severs. The train is most ikely a Northwest Special as these trains usually always had several loads of Utah and Colorado coal although the NYC car was a little hard to ex[lain. The three photos were taken in 1946 by a fireman on one of the helpers.

Art Marr
Reno, ,


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Art Marr wrote:

Richard,
What you say about eastern coal shipments is mostly true but there .is always the exception.
I have been intriguided by the NYC hopper loaded with coal headed for Oregon,probably for a foundryon page 72 of Bowden and Dill's Modoc book. To paraphrase the caption if my memory severs. The train is most ikely a Northwest Special as these trains usually always had several loads of Utah and Colorado coal although the NYC car was a little hard to ex[lain. The three photos were taken in 1946 by a fireman on one of the helpers.

Art Marr
Reno,
Art,

In UP Conductor JR Nelson's 1941 2,800 car Wheel Report, there were a couple of RDG hoppers carrying "coal" westbound from Green River WY to Montpelier ID for Portland OR. No consignee was given, but I assume the "coal" was anthracite which could be used for home heating.

In the post-War UP Wheel Reports I have parsed, there were no RDG hoppers. This may be an indication that the last die-hards burning anthracite for heat had converted over to oil or gas.

Tim Gilbert


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

In a remelt shop<
They remelted everything from cars to gons of scrap. I really don't know what the coal was for but it was there. Union City had a couple of blast furnaces but to my knowledge never used them past once. They also received lots of liquid oxygen, maybe coal and oxygen????? to heat up the scrap?

Union City, CA
I thought Oakland had some type of steel plant also, maybe a remelt shop.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Jon Miller wrote:
In a remelt shop<
They remelted everything from cars to gons of scrap. I really
don't know what the coal was for but it was there. Union City had a
couple of blast furnaces but to my knowledge never used them past
once. They also received lots of liquid oxygen, maybe coal and
oxygen????? to heat up the scrap?

Union City, CA
I thought Oakland had some type of steel plant also, maybe a
remelt shop.
I think the average person confuses iron ore smelters -- a.k.a. a blast
furnaces -- with making steel. Iron smelting is a different process than
making steel. Given that fact there were many steel mills that did not
smelt iron ore... they made steel by melting scrap.

Jon, the steel mill you recall was Judson-Pacific in Emeryville. They did
not have a blast furnace. Surely Tony can give the correct info but IIRC
the use of *lots* of oxygen is a post steam era ingredient.

Dave Nelson


Russell Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

The basic concept here was that if you desired this traffic you had to have
cars in the pool. One of the conveniences of these pools was that the
manufacturers of parts and finished vehicles loaded the cars that were in
the pool and did not need to even consider who owned the car.

Once a Railroad built or modified cars for one of these pools it could be
months or years before some came back on home rails.

Russ
As for auto parts cars, especially those with special loading fixtures
installed, they were typically assigned to pools in which each major RR
over which the cars were routed contributed cars, so parts bound for
New Jersey would often have been loaded in assigned pool cars owned by
the Pennsy, Lehigh Valley, Erie, etc., though Wabash, DT&I, Pere
Marquette, New York Central, and other RRs where the traffic originated
were usually contributors to such pools as well.