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box car shortage rules
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations - they can only take people into or out of the country. ========== The railroad situation isn't really like cabotage. Cars between points in New England and the midwest could move freely over Canadian routes, and cars between NB and Montreal could move through the U.S. Another reason that cabotage doesn't apply is that there were no Canadian railroads between points in the U.S. or U.S. railroads between points in Canada. For example, the CP line across Maine was actually a U.S. corporation with its stock owned entirely by the Canadian company. Anyone know of any exceptions to this. GN to Vancouver ? The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty they had to be loaded to or via Canada. Someone may want to check me on this, but I believe that a shipment between Chicago and Portland routed GTW/CN/GT could be loaded in a Canadian car. ----- Original Message ----- Well, I did say "similar" :-) Actually, if you consider airliners as airborne cattle cars (which they pretty much are these days. . .) cabotage sounds quite like the railroad situation. A plane can be loaded in Maine and fly over Canada on its way to Minneapolis or Seattle. I believe they could even stop there so long as no one gets on or off. And, if a Canadian airliner has no passengers booked on the trip from Miami to Toronto, it flies empty. It can't be used to take passengers to Buffalo first. KL |
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Doug Rhodes
To be more precise, for railroads it is the duty-paid status of the conveyance that determines the result, not the ownership of the carrier.
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Back in the day, customs duty had to be paid on things, including conveyances like railroad cars, that were used within a country. If the duty had not been paid, the car could proceed to the destination for unloading, and could carry goods or run empty back to its own country. However, it could not be loaded within the foreign country and unloaded while still within that same country, as that would be considered "use within the country." This is a general principle of customs practice, not a rule specific to railroads. For example, a Canadian who had rented an automobile in the US was typically not permitted to use that car within Canada, at least back before NAFTA et al. The same principles would typically apply on both sides of the border (for example, US freight cars within Canada would face similar restrictions on use.) This is consistent with the examples that Malcolm has pointed out, but it is not really about railroad ownership. Railroad cars merely in transit, not loaded or unloaded in Canada, could travel across Ontario in US cars on which Canadian duty had not been paid because this did not fall within the definition of "use within Canada" for customs purposes. It was not because of who owned the railroad line, or where the owner corporation was registered. Similar logic in reverse would apply to Canadian cars crossing through Maine. The customs principles for GN to Vancouver would be identical, and again unrelated to the ownership of the carrier. I have heard that CPR had cars on which US duty HAD been paid and hence were permissible for shipments entirely within the US. These are said to have been marked differently, "International of Maine" in the old days, "CPAA" more latterly. This would be consistent with the rules, however, I don't have the references to confirm or refute this story. Doug Rhodes ----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:58 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: box car shortage rules Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations - they can only take people into or out of the country. ========== The railroad situation isn't really like cabotage. Cars between points in New England and the midwest could move freely over Canadian routes, and cars between NB and Montreal could move through the U.S. Another reason that cabotage doesn't apply is that there were no Canadian railroads between points in the U.S. or U.S. railroads between points in Canada. For example, the CP line across Maine was actually a U.S. corporation with its stock owned entirely by the Canadian company. Anyone know of any exceptions to this. GN to Vancouver ? The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty they had to be loaded to or via Canada. Someone may want to check me on this, but I believe that a shipment between Chicago and Portland routed GTW/CN/GT could be loaded in a Canadian car. Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478 |
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Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty Yes, that's correct. FWIW, the vast majority of US:Canada:US routings were east/west crossing at Buffalo NY. Dave Nelson |
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rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
Tim,
I don't have info on the car routings. But, would guess that only the lumber products came from Canada. The cement could have come from either the Twin Ports of Duluth, Superior, only a couple hundred miles or Mason City, Iowa, those plants would be about the same shipping distance, but on the same RR. I didn't look at the dates for the grain related loads. If in the warmer months they could have been routed to the Twin Ports. I think those guys say 'eh' more than our friends a few miles nortt of dare, eh :) Clark Propst MC IA |
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Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that
a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations - they can only take people into or out of the country. ========== The railroad situation isn't really like cabotage. Cars between points in New England and the midwest could move freely over Canadian routes, and cars between NB and Montreal could move through the U.S. Another reason that cabotage doesn't apply is that there were no Canadian railroads between points in the U.S. or U.S. railroads between points in Canada. For example, the CP line across Maine was actually a U.S. corporation with its stock owned entirely by the Canadian company. Anyone know of any exceptions to this. GN to Vancouver ? The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty they had to be loaded to or via Canada. Someone may want to check me on this, but I believe that a shipment between Chicago and Portland routed GTW/CN/GT could be loaded in a Canadian car. Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478 |
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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
Ed Mines asked:
Clark Propst added:I know that box cars could be loaded to any destination rather thanbereturned to the home road during the box car shortage from the Ed,Clark, Can we assume that the inbound loads originated in Canada? If so, US Customs would have no quarrel. Regarding the outbound loads, if they were routed to or through Canada, (say M&SL-Minnesota Transfer- DSS&A-Sault Ste Marie-CP-Buffalo-NYC), US Customs would have no quarrel. Another possibility that the grain was from Canada and subject to a "milled in transit" rate which would have escaped Customs scrutiny. The grain trade got special treatment which I don't understand. Tim Gilbert
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gilbert" <tgilbert@...> The rule about Canadian cars was not an AAR one, but could be enforced----- Original Message ----- There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations - they can only take people into or out of the country. KL |
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Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
ed_mines wrote:
I know that box cars could be loaded to any destination rather than beEd, The rule to reload and route foreign car empties was never waived; instead, it was not enforced not only during the 1940's, but also in the 1950's. Thus, the rule could be ignored with impunity. The AAR's Car Service Bureau could issue a special "BC" orders requiring a specific Railroad to deliver "X" number of empty boxcars to another road at a specific interchange. In March 1947, the B&M was fined for not complying with a "BC" order for not delivering enough NYC boxcars at Rotterdam Jct. NY and to the CP at Wells River VT. The rule about Canadian cars was not an AAR one, but could be enforced by US customs. If a Canadian car was reloaded and routed via an all-American route, US Customs could deem that customs duty had to be paid on the Canadian car. Canadian customs could extract the same for an American car having all-Canadian routing. Tim Gilbert |
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rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
be returned to the home road during the box car shortage from theEd, I don't know how easy this will be to read as I copied it from an Excel sheet. Clark Propst FAIRFAX MN M&StL SEAL BOOK ENTRIES FROM SAM SHERMAN DATE TRAIN NO. INTIALS NUMBER CONTENTS CAR TYPE NO. SERIES INBOUND OUTBOUND BUSINESS 8/5/1947 72 CN 520447 LUMBER XM 520000-522499 INBOUND HAUSER LUMBER 8/9/1947 CN 520447 WHEAT XM 520000-522499 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 8/14/1947 CN 480463 BARLEY XM 477850-480714 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 9/10/1947 73 CN 471272 CEMENT XM 471000-473999 INBOUND HAUSER LUMBER 9/11/1947 CN 521189 FLAX XM 520000-522499 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 9/16/1947 CN 471272 CORN XM 471000-473999 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 1/5/1948 99 CN 483253 LUMBER XM 480715-487764 INBOUND HAUSER LUMBER 1/10/1948 CN 483253 WHEAT XM 480715-487764 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 3/22/1948 73 CN 484196 CEMENT XM 480715-487764 INBOUND FULLERTON LUMBER 7/2/1947 73 CP 174981 SHINGLES XM 170000-191999 INBOUND FULLERTON LUMBER 9/4/1947 CP 240316 FLAX XM 240000-247499 OUTBOUND FARMERS COOP 9/8/1947 73 CP 178937 MEAL XM 170000-191999 INBOUND PACIFIC GRAIN |
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ed_mines
I know that box cars could be loaded to any destination rather than be
returned to the home road during the box car shortage from the beginning of WWII to 1947 or '48. Did this include Canadian box cars? Were any box cars exempt from this rule? Ed |
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