How is the AB brake cylinder mounted on the PRR G-22 gondola?


proto48er
 

I have usually seen the brake cylinder, either for an AB or a K brake,
mounted on the side of the centersill of a steam era freight car. The
cars in question are the prototype PRR G-22 gondolas. Kohs & Company,
Inc. is importing an excellent model of the G-22b container car in "O"
scale, and has some pre-production model photos at www.kohs.com. These
models have the brake cylinder mounted to the steel floor of the car -
can this be correct? I have been under 200+ freight cars measuring
them, and I have NEVER seen a brake cylinder bounted to the floor of
the car! Thanks for your response. A.T. Kott


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:26 PM, proto48er wrote:

I have usually seen the brake cylinder, either for an AB or a K brake,
mounted on the side of the centersill of a steam era freight car. The
cars in question are the prototype PRR G-22 gondolas. Kohs & Company,
Inc. is importing an excellent model of the G-22b container car in "O"
scale, and has some pre-production model photos at www.kohs.com. These
models have the brake cylinder mounted to the steel floor of the car -
can this be correct? I have been under 200+ freight cars measuring
them, and I have NEVER seen a brake cylinder bounted to the floor of
the car! Thanks for your response. A.T. Kott
That's gotta be wrong. Not even the non-standard railroad of the world would mount a cylinder on a sheet steel floor, where the repeated heavy thrust of the piston being actuated by brake applications would soon compromise the mounting and/or distort the floor. Brake cylinders were always bolted to substantial mountings fastened to the center sills or draft sills. The only exceptions I can think of were the UTL Van Dyke frameless tank cars, where the cylinder mountings were riveted to the very thick tank bottom sheets.

Richard Hendrickson


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

That's gotta be wrong.
Richard - I agree! Here is the entire link to the photo of the model:

http://www.kohs.com/PRR%20G22b%20pages/G22b%205sample%20model%20photo%
2008.html

It is a photo of the pilot model - will probably be corrected before
the final run. The rod between the two brake levers should be
between the centersills, and the live levers to the trucks should be
on the opposite side of the centersill from the brake cylinder,
IMHO.

I have the PRRH&TS "Keystone" from 1983 or so with the general
arrangement drawings of the cars, but no placement of brake gear is
indicated. Since the Kohs models are only available with containers,
and since they are $650 each(!), I am going to build up a couple from
brass kits made by the late Bob Parri.

In a related question, has anyone ever located a photo of the elusive
PRR G-21 gondola? Bob made me a kit for that car also, but we did
not know where to put the drop-type stake pockets inside the car. I
have to add the rivets to the sides of that car in the proper places
before assembling it.

Thanks again for the help. I love this list! A.T. Kott


Bruce Smith
 

On Thu, February 1, 2007 7:26 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is a photo of the pilot model - will probably be corrected before
the final run. The rod between the two brake levers should be
between the centersills, and the live levers to the trucks should be
on the opposite side of the centersill from the brake cylinder,
IMHO.
And that would be incorrect. Standard PRR brake gear of that era had the
ends of the levers and the brake rods to the trucks between the
centersills and rod between the levers outside the center sill. That part
of the Koh's model appears to be correct.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Thu, February 1, 2007 7:26 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is a photo of the pilot model - will probably be corrected before
the final run. The rod between the two brake levers should be
between the centersills, and the live levers to the trucks should be
on the opposite side of the centersill from the brake cylinder,
IMHO.
And that would be incorrect. Standard PRR brake gear of that era had
the
ends of the levers and the brake rods to the trucks between the
centersills and rod between the levers outside the center sill. That
part
of the Koh's model appears to be correct.
Bruce -

If it is true that the rod between the brake levers was OUTSIDE of the
centersills, then there would be no room to mount the brake cylinder to
the centersill! The cylinder would have to be mounted too far away
from the centersill. In the general arrangement drawing, there is no
steel plate from the centersill to the side sill on which it could be
mounted. A bent plate attached to the centersill would seem too flimsy
to be a stable mount. The plot thickens!!

Does anybody have a drawing from PRR of the brake arrangement for these
cars? Probably same arrangement existed on other cars, like the Gr and
Gra classes.

A.T. Confused Kott


Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Bruce -

If it is true that the rod between the brake levers was OUTSIDE of the
centersills, then there would be no room to mount the brake cylinder to
the centersill! The cylinder would have to be mounted too far away
from the centersill. In the general arrangement drawing, there is no
steel plate from the centersill to the side sill on which it could be
mounted. A bent plate attached to the centersill would seem too flimsy
to be a stable mount. The plot thickens!!

Does anybody have a drawing from PRR of the brake arrangement for these
cars? Probably same arrangement existed on other cars, like the Gr and
Gra classes.

A.T. Confused Kott


Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@> wrote:

On Thu, February 1, 2007 7:26 pm, proto48er wrote:
of the Koh's model appears to be correct.
Bruce -

If it is true that the rod between the brake levers was OUTSIDE of the
centersills, then there would be no room to mount the brake cylinder to
the centersill! The cylinder would have to be mounted too far away
from the centersill. In the general arrangement drawing, there is no
steel plate from the centersill to the side sill on which it could be
mounted. A bent plate attached to the centersill would seem too flimsy
to be a stable mount. The plot thickens!!

Does anybody have a drawing from PRR of the brake arrangement for these
cars? Probably same arrangement existed on other cars, like the Gr and
Gra classes.

A.T. Confused Kott
Let's try this again, without hitting the SEND button until the text
is written :-(

What Bruce is describing sounds exactly like the way the foundation
brake gear is designed on a heavyweight passenger car, and they used a
considerably larger brake cylinder, with proportionally larger forces.
The brake cylinder typically was mounted on a couple pieces of really
thick plate, I want to say 1" or 1.5", that spanned between the
centersill and side sill.. Perhaps PRR used an extra plate below the
floor sheet, or specified one sheet as thicker plate to avoid extra
framing for the brake cylinder mount. Either that, or the model is
missing a couple structural members.

Dennis


Bruce Smith
 

On Feb 2, 2007, at 11:51 AM, proto48er wrote:


If it is true that the rod between the brake levers was OUTSIDE of the
centersills, then there would be no room to mount the brake cylinder to
the centersill! The cylinder would have to be mounted too far away
from the centersill. In the general arrangement drawing, there is no
steel plate from the centersill to the side sill on which it could be
mounted. A bent plate attached to the centersill would seem too flimsy
to be a stable mount. The plot thickens!!
A.T.

The cylinder was attached to a plate that ran LONGITUDINALLY between the cross braces. The cylinder was most definitely NOT attached to the centersill.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Dave Pfeiffer
 

If you consider Al Westerfield's G22 as being accurate, check his site.

Dave Pfeiffer


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Pfeiffer" <dave.pfeiffer@...> wrote:

If you consider Al Westerfield's G22 as being accurate, check his
site.

Dave Pfeiffer
Dave -

Thanks for the reference to Westerfield's website - I am in "O" and did
not think to look there. The photos were a big help.

Westerfield is usually correct in his research. I am beginning to be
convinced that the G-22 had a brake cylinder arrangement as detailed on
Westerfield's website for the G-22. The G-22 had all its crossmembers
riveted to the steel floor; therefore, a thick mounting plate attached
longitudinally to two crossmembers would seem to have sufficient
strength to mount the brake cylinder.

The running of the two rods to the trucks inside of the centersill for
the G-22 also seems necessary, given that the original cars had four
small drop-bottom hoppers which would have interfered with "normal" (to
me) placement of the brake gear. Also, the vertical brake staff seems
closer to the centersill than "usual" on the prototype G-22. This all
is starting to make sense!

Two things still bother me about Westerfield's website photos. First,
in the G-22 section, there is a drawing from Kalmbach Pub. Co. from
1986 (?) which shows the brake arrangement! I would have preferred a
PRR drawing! Second, in Westerfield's GRa section, it shows the same
squirrily brake arrangement - I do not recall that GRa's ever had drop
doors or steel floors (which would have allowed enough extra strength
for mounting of a brake cylinder on a longitudinal plate between two
crossmembers). Why would the GRa's have this arrangement? Do the GR's
and the FM's have it too? (I do have two GRa's, one GR, one FM and one
FGRa to detail in another project, if I live long enough). As usual,
more questions than answers!

Bruce - thank you very much for your responses! Also thanks to Dennis
and Richard! The older I get, the more I do not know!

A.T. Kott


Dave Pfeiffer
 

BTW. Ben Hom must be on vacation, so I'll remind you. There are no dashes in PRR car classes. G22. :-)

Dave Pfeiffer


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Pfeiffer" <dave.pfeiffer@...> wrote:

BTW. Ben Hom must be on vacation, so I'll remind you. There are no
dashes
in PRR car classes. G22. :-)

Dave Pfeiffer
Sorry - I am really a Mopac (I-GN) + M-K-T + T&NO type of guy! Mopac
always had a lot of PRR freight cars in the trains down in south Texas,
so they are a necessary evil. Some of the PRR cars are pretty
interesting, however! A.T. Kott


Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

AT Kott wrote:


Sorry - I am really a Mopac (I-GN) + M-K-T + T&NO type of guy! Mopac
always had a lot of PRR freight cars in the trains down in south Texas,
so they are a necessary evil. Some of the PRR cars are pretty
interesting, however





What kinds of PRR Freight Cars were in South Texas, and in what proportion of Total Boxcars? Total Gons? Total Hoppers? Total Stock Cars? Total Flat Cars?

Tim Gilbert


Bruce Smith
 

On Fri, February 2, 2007 7:19 pm, proto48er wrote:
Two things still bother me about Westerfield's website photos. First,
in the G-22 section, there is a drawing from Kalmbach Pub. Co. from
1986 (?) which shows the brake arrangement! I would have preferred a
PRR drawing! Second, in Westerfield's GRa section, it shows the same
squirrily brake arrangement - I do not recall that GRa's ever had drop
doors or steel floors (which would have allowed enough extra strength
for mounting of a brake cylinder on a longitudinal plate between two
crossmembers). Why would the GRa's have this arrangement? Do the GR's
and the FM's have it too? (I do have two GRa's, one GR, one FM and one
FGRa to detail in another project, if I live long enough). As usual,
more questions than answers!
A.T.,

This is the standard brake arrangement for PRR cars of this era. I was
about to say that it had nothing to do with drop doors, but it may well
have originated in that style car. Regardless, it was applied to the GR
(and FM which is a twin to the GR), GRa and many other cars such as the
X25 and X29. Similar brakes were used on the B&O M-26A. Westerfield and
F&C have nice castings for the levers in their kits (note that the
Sunshine FM has a bogus brake arrangement drawing in the instruction).

BTW, we just finished an FM project on the PRRPro group <G>.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

AT Kott wrote:


Sorry - I am really a Mopac (I-GN) + M-K-T + T&NO type of guy! Mopac
always had a lot of PRR freight cars in the trains down in south
Texas...

What kinds of PRR Freight Cars were in South Texas, and in what
proportion of Total Boxcars? Total Gons? Total Hoppers? Total Stock
Cars? Total Flat Cars?

Tim Gilbert
Tim - I do not know the exact proportion of each type of PRR car, but
there were a considerable number of PRR boxcars, gondolas and flatcars
on the I-GN through freights from Austin to San Antonio in the late
1950's. The primary cars on the I-GN trains were MP boxcars, with PRR
boxcars next. There were very few NYC cars on MP trains, but they were
more common on M-K-T trains for some reason and there were very few PRR
cars on them. I was too young to understand or ask any of the
operating personnel why this traffic pattern existed - I doubt if any
knew, since we are a long way from St Louis where the brains of the
operation were. The only MP switch lists I have are OT (1961-1963).

Many shipments of steel and other mfg. goods were delivered on MP in
PRR gons. and on PRR flats (to a lesser extent). I have photos of
captive PRR GRa gons. used to haul cut limestone slabs from a quarry on
the T&NO Llano Branch to a facility in the city of Austin.

Surprisingly, there were PRR stock cars down here too. It appears that
the King Ranch in Kingsville, Texas (on the StLB&M) regularly shipped
cattle to and from Pennsylvania - they had some kind of fattening (?)
operation there.

There were very few PRR hopper cars here. Coal in south Texas was
shipped primarily in gondolas in the 1948 era of my interest. However,
I like the PRR H-21a and H-25 cars because they look very much like a
series of later-built MP quad hoppers which were everywhere down here
in the late 1950's. I saw a ton of the PRR cars when I lived in
Reading, Penna. in 1950-1951 also. These MP cars were built out of my
time frame, but the PRR hoppers are not an anachronism, so there they
are! I am the boss, so that is that! Out of 400+ cars, I do have (4)
H-21a's, (1)H-25, and (1)H-22a - even the paint and lettering on them
looks like the MP quad hoppers! Also, the top 24" of one of the PRR
GLc gons.(hoppers?) was cut off and it was used on the Midland Terminal
RR in Colorado Springs; when the MT went belly-up in 1947, it was sold
to a quarry in New Braunfels, Texas - so it is fair game too. Only
photo I have is as an MT car. ORER dimensions indicate it was a PRR
GLc, and not a UP or B&O car.

We did see a number of hoppers of coke, used by one of the local
foundrys - also a roofless boxcar or two (L&N) in that service. Have
been fighting the thought of converting an H-22a into an H-22 coke car -
one lone car was left on the PRR roster until about 1952.

Some MP trains had solid blocks of ART reefers in them. Some had large
blocks of MP gondolas and/or MP covered hoppers in them. Very few
AT&SF cars were down here on MP or M-K-T or SP - just an occasional
boxcar or reefer. Some surprising cars came through regularly on the
MP - like B&O wagon-top covered hoppers with catalytic cracking
catalyst for the FCCU's at the Corpus Christi refineries - all sent
down the SAU&G (MP) line south of San Antonio. Also an occasional
brick container car with special firebrick for the refineries (did not
ever see one of these, however). Also L&NE covered hoppers down here
on MP.

In a typical MP freight of 1954, about 65% of the cars were MP, then
10% PRR, then 5% B&O and 5% SP - I saw lots of trains with this mix
over a 15 year period. MP trains consisted mostly of boxcars, with a
good percentage of gondolas and covered hoppers in them as well. M-K-T
had more of a mix, with only 30% or so of M-K-T cars per train - mostly
boxcars.

A.T. Kott


proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

A.T.,

This is the standard brake arrangement for PRR cars of this era. I
was
about to say that it had nothing to do with drop doors, but it may
well
have originated in that style car. Regardless, it was applied to
the GR
(and FM which is a twin to the GR), GRa and many other cars such as
the
X25 and X29. Similar brakes were used on the B&O M-26A.
Westerfield and
F&C have nice castings for the levers in their kits (note that the
Sunshine FM has a bogus brake arrangement drawing in the
instruction).

BTW, we just finished an FM project on the PRRPro group <G>.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce -

Thank you very much for the help! I just was having a hard time
believing the brake mount arrangement from an engineering
perspective! You are correct!

Glad you mentioned the B&O M-26a, since I have one of those waiting
to be corrected/detailed too! I am an "O" scaler, so the only
recourse we have is to PSC brass parts - these are all brass cars.

I have a goofy project in mind. I am going to convert one of the
brass Hallmark GRa gondolas into a GR in a crazy way. I have two
brass FM flatcars - one will be used with the cut-down sides from a
GRa to make a GR gon. The rest of the GRa car will become an FGRa
flatcar with new floor and stake pockets from the FM. According to
the drawings, things line up pretty well. I am still looking for a
photo of the FGRa, however. That is a request for another day!!

Joined the PRRPro group just after the FM project, but they got into
structures, etc. Now I am interested in the Pullman heavyweights
project when that comes along.

Thanks again! A.T. Kott