Red Caboose X29 patch panels


jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Questions:


I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with patch
panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.


Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and panel
lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2) early PRR
X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??



Any insights would be appreciated.


Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Jim: I can answer part of the question, RC retooled the early PRR X29 (good
for B&O M-26b). I am still at work so I don't have a car to measure the
height of the patch panels. They are already out, I have 11 decorated bodies
and 2 undecs I bought off Andy Carlson (No relation). Warning the kits are
expensive, $2 less than the RTR. Red Caboose's way to sell less kits.

I do know from looking at prototype photo's they were not all the same height
on the PRR.

Brian J Carlson

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:28:57 -0000, jim_mischke wrote
Questions:

I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with
patch panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.

Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and
panel lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2)
early PRR X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??

Any insights would be appreciated.

Yahoo! Groups Links


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Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Mischke wrote:
- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch panels were 15" high.
I can't speak for B&O, but PRR panels were certainly not all the same size. There are even photos with different height panels on a single car. So I guess I'd answer Jim's question with: "Varies."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

On Wed, February 7, 2007 6:28 pm, jim_mischke wrote:
- What is the height of the PRR patch panels?
As noted by others, the PRR's panels varied in height. Those on the model
represent a continuous 12" panel applied to the entire car side

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??
PRR plate end.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Paul Lyons
 

The patch panels on the RC kits I do not believe are correctly tooled as a typical representation of how this repair was carried out. They are rendered as if a continuous plate was welded all the way across the bottom of the car. From a technical point of view, this has never made much sense to me as the "patch" weld where you transitioned over the lap seams would be a real problem to execute. My clear answer of how "patch" panels were applied came at Cocco Beach this year. Ted Culotta in his presentation had a photo of an X 29 in just the right sunlight to high-light the "patch" panels. Although the "patch" panel on this car was the same height all the way across the bottom, the "patches" were clearly distinct sheets, each the width of the panel they were "patching", and not one continuous sheet as represented on the RC model. Clearly the bottom two or three rivets at each seam had been removed, the old panel cut away, a new "patch" plate welded to the bottom of the panel and the panel seam re-riveted. I spoke with Richard Hendrickson about the photo while it was being presented and he confirmed, that to his knowledge, this was how the patches were applied. It also clearly illustrates why there was more than one height. The worker doing the "patching" simply removed what needed to be removed from each panel solely on a need to replace basis. Obviously, making one torch cut along a single line and having all the the replacement "patch" panels the same size was easier and quicker. I await my Pennsy peers thoughts on the matter.........

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: brian@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Caboose X29 patch panels


Jim: I can answer part of the question, RC retooled the early PRR X29 (good
for B&O M-26b). I am still at work so I don't have a car to measure the
height of the patch panels. They are already out, I have 11 decorated bodies
and 2 undecs I bought off Andy Carlson (No relation). Warning the kits are
expensive, $2 less than the RTR. Red Caboose's way to sell less kits.

I do know from looking at prototype photo's they were not all the same height
on the PRR.

Brian J Carlson

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:28:57 -0000, jim_mischke wrote
Questions:

I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with
patch panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.

Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and
panel lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2)
early PRR X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??

Any insights would be appreciated.

Yahoo! Groups Links


--
Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)



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Bruce Smith
 

On Sun, February 11, 2007 12:28 pm, cobrapsl@... wrote:
The patch panels on the RC kits I do not believe are correctly tooled as a
typical representation of how this repair was carried out.
<snip>
My clear answer of how "patch" panels were
applied came at Cocco Beach this year. Ted Culotta in his presentation had
a photo of an X 29 in just the right sunlight to high-light the "patch"
panels. Although the "patch" panel on this car was the same height all the
way across the bottom, the "patches" were clearly distinct sheets, each
the width of the panel they were "patching", and not one continuous sheet
as represented on the RC model.
<snip>
I await my Pennsy peers thoughts on the matter.........

Paul Lyons
Paul,

The RC patch panels are absolutely prototypical. Long and intense study
of the X29 patch panels indicates that it depends on when the panels were
applied and by whom. Early on, you tend to see individual patches such as
those you describe and as pictured in Richard's photo. However, when it
became obvious that ALL of the panels would eventually need to be patched,
the patches were made up of a single piece that stretched from the end to
the door and there is plenty of photographic evidence for this as well.
Indeed, there is also evidence of panels that were intermediate in size,
covering more than one panel, but not the whole side. If you wish to
model the earlier style patches, you can use self adhesive metal foil for
the individual patches on an original RC body.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Paul Lyons
 

Bruce,

I do not doubt what you say, but I have never seen a clear photo of the installation as you describe it. I would very much appreciate someone either sending me a photo scan of this installation, or pointing me to a reference photo I can look it up. Furthermore, I continue to have a problem understanding how you weld over the lap seam with a continuous piece of plate material, without having a 3/8" gap to deal with at each seam, which defies good welding practices. Again, not arguing, I just want to understand.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: smithbf@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Caboose X29 patch panels


On Sun, February 11, 2007 12:28 pm, cobrapsl@... wrote:
The patch panels on the RC kits I do not believe are correctly tooled as a
typical representation of how this repair was carried out.
<snip>
My clear answer of how "patch" panels were
applied came at Cocco Beach this year. Ted Culotta in his presentation had
a photo of an X 29 in just the right sunlight to high-light the "patch"
panels. Although the "patch" panel on this car was the same height all the
way across the bottom, the "patches" were clearly distinct sheets, each
the width of the panel they were "patching", and not one continuous sheet
as represented on the RC model.
<snip>
I await my Pennsy peers thoughts on the matter.........

Paul Lyons
Paul,

The RC patch panels are absolutely prototypical. Long and intense study
of the X29 patch panels indicates that it depends on when the panels were
applied and by whom. Early on, you tend to see individual patches such as
those you describe and as pictured in Richard's photo. However, when it
became obvious that ALL of the panels would eventually need to be patched,
the patches were made up of a single piece that stretched from the end to
the door and there is plenty of photographic evidence for this as well.
Indeed, there is also evidence of panels that were intermediate in size,
covering more than one panel, but not the whole side. If you wish to
model the earlier style patches, you can use self adhesive metal foil for
the individual patches on an original RC body.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
The RC patch panels are absolutely prototypical. Long and intense study of the X29 patch panels indicates that it depends on when the panels were applied and by whom. Early on, you tend to see individual patches such as those you describe and as pictured in Richard's photo. However, when it became obvious that ALL of the panels would eventually need to be patched, the patches were made up of a single piece that stretched from the end to the door and there is plenty of photographic evidence for this as well. Indeed, there is also evidence of panels that were intermediate in size, covering more than one panel, but not the whole side.
Well summarized, Bruce. This was my conclusion from studying photos when I put together my Pennsy freight car modeling clinic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

On Sun, February 11, 2007 5:06 pm, cobrapsl@... wrote:
Bruce,

I do not doubt what you say, but I have never seen a clear photo of the
installation as you describe it. I would very much appreciate someone
either sending me a photo scan of this installation, or pointing me to a
reference photo I can look it up. Furthermore, I continue to have a
problem understanding how you weld over the lap seam with a continuous
piece of plate material, without having a 3/8" gap to deal with at each
seam, which defies good welding practices. Again, not arguing, I just
want to understand.

Paul Lyons
Hi Paul,

Here's a great shot (it will take some time to load) of a PRR X29 in PC
work service.
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/pc38494.jpg
The patch being a single piece is obvious.

Other on-line photos that support this (although they are not as clear) are:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/displayimage.php?i=20446# (requires
subscription)
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/prr489539.jpg
http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PaulT/X29_PRR38482_RRMofPA_PTupaczewski.jpg


Note that the third of these cars is at the RR Museum of PA at Strasburg
and so continues to be available for inspection. I have additional photos
of that car from Bill Lane, and the single panel nature of the patch is
quite clear. What's also neat about that car is that you can see the
outline of the cut off interior ends of the panels on the exterior of the
patch

As for how this would be welded? Beats me! "I'm a doctor, not a
welder"<VBG>. Larry? ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

I've been following this dialogue with some interest. As someone who
fabricates all kinds of things, I was curious to see how the lap seam
overlay was dealt with. After a quick study of the photo of #38494,
it's clear that the patch was simply laid over the lap seam and the
void filled by the welding bead.
Pretty simple.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Sun, February 11, 2007 5:06 pm, cobrapsl@... wrote:
Bruce,

I do not doubt what you say, but I have never seen a clear photo
of the
installation as you describe it. I would very much appreciate someone
either sending me a photo scan of this installation, or pointing
me to a
reference photo I can look it up. Furthermore, I continue to have a
problem understanding how you weld over the lap seam with a continuous
piece of plate material, without having a 3/8" gap to deal with at
each
seam, which defies good welding practices. Again, not arguing, I just
want to understand.

Paul Lyons
Hi Paul,

Here's a great shot (it will take some time to load) of a PRR X29 in PC
work service.
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/pc38494.jpg
The patch being a single piece is obvious.

Other on-line photos that support this (although they are not as
clear) are:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/displayimage.php?i=20446# (requires
subscription)
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/prr489539.jpg
http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PaulT/X29_PRR38482_RRMofPA_PTupaczewski.jpg


Note that the third of these cars is at the RR Museum of PA at Strasburg
and so continues to be available for inspection. I have additional
photos
of that car from Bill Lane, and the single panel nature of the patch is
quite clear. What's also neat about that car is that you can see the
outline of the cut off interior ends of the panels on the exterior
of the
patch

As for how this would be welded? Beats me! "I'm a doctor, not a
welder"<VBG>. Larry? ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

Bruce Smith posted this link
http://pc.smellycat.com/pics/equip/prr489539.jpg

Looking at this photo it appears that the patch panels are underneath the
original panels and they appear to be rivited as opposed to welded. My
examination of photos shows quite a bit af variation in how the patches were
applied.

Does anyone know how common was; riveted vs welded and patches attached
underneath vs over top of the original panels.

Thank you,
Ned Carey


Frank Greene
 

Paul <cobrapsl@...> wrote:
Furthermore, I continue to have a problem understanding how you weld over the lap seam with a continuous piece of plate material, without having a 3/8" gap to deal with at each seam, which defies good welding practices. Again, not arguing, I just want to understand.

I'm not a welder and haven't examined an X29, but it seems to me that you would want to cut away the rotten metal before you welded good metal in place. Otherwise, what have you accomplished other than trap wet rusted/corroded metal behind the new? Therefore, I suspect they cut away a section that matched the patch, and riveted and welded the patch in its place.

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

On B&O M-26's, the patch panels were 15" high. They were applied in
strips one, two, and three panels wide. Most often, the whole car
was patched, using these various combinations. B&O car shops stocked
several varieties of each patch panel, as the rivet patterns for the
M-26, M-26a, M-26b, M-26c, M-26d, and M-26e differed.

On B&O, the top of every panel was lap welded.

For sure, panels were patched individually as needed, but the norm
was the multipanel patch on B&O.




--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

The patch panels on the RC kits I do not believe are correctly
tooled as a typical representation of how this repair was carried
out. They are rendered as if a continuous plate was welded all the
way across the bottom of the car. From a technical point of view,
this has never made much sense to me as the "patch" weld where you
transitioned over the lap seams would be a real problem to execute.
My clear answer of how "patch" panels were applied came at Cocco
Beach this year. Ted Culotta in his presentation had a photo of an X
29 in just the right sunlight to high-light the "patch" panels.
Although the "patch" panel on this car was the same height all the
way across the bottom, the "patches" were clearly distinct sheets,
each the width of the panel they were "patching", and not one
continuous sheet as represented on the RC model. Clearly the bottom
two or three rivets at each seam had been removed, the old panel cut
away, a new "patch" plate welded to the bottom of the panel and the
panel seam re-riveted. I spoke with Richard Hendrickson about the
photo while it was being presented and he confirmed, that to his
knowledge, this was how the patches were applied. It also clearly
illustrates why there was more than one height. The worker doing
the "patching" simply removed what needed to be removed from each
panel solely on a need to replace basis. Obviously, making one torch
cut along a single line and having all the the replacement "patch"
panels the same size was easier and quicker. I await my Pennsy peers
thoughts on the matter.........

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: brian@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Red Caboose X29 patch panels


Jim: I can answer part of the question, RC retooled the early PRR
X29 (good
for B&O M-26b). I am still at work so I don't have a car to measure
the
height of the patch panels. They are already out, I have 11
decorated bodies
and 2 undecs I bought off Andy Carlson (No relation). Warning the
kits are
expensive, $2 less than the RTR. Red Caboose's way to sell less
kits.

I do know from looking at prototype photo's they were not all the
same height
on the PRR.

Brian J Carlson

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:28:57 -0000, jim_mischke wrote
Questions:

I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with
patch panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.

Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and
panel lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2)
early PRR X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??

Any insights would be appreciated.

Yahoo! Groups Links


--
Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)



______________________________________________________________________
__
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.