Going Bananas ...


Jim Betz
 

My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru
East Coast and Gulf ports - originally - and then that there were
changes in shipping and in the overall demand (due as much to population
as anything else) and so some of the bananas started to be shipped
to West Coast ports via the Panama Canal. As population grew in the
West more and more of the supply of bananas to the West coast came
to the West Coast via the canal. Then, later on, additional sources of
bananas started to be used that were shipped to the U.S. from Pacific
ports. With modern refridgeration bananas and other perishables can
be shipped by almost any route because they are loaded into containers
that each have their own temperature control mechanisms.
Enough general overview - I know that there were cars such as the
W.I.F. cars that at least advertised bananas - but those cars were
box cars. Were bananas shipped without refridgeration in the
STMFC era?
- Jim in San Jose


Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Chiquita used to say:
"NEVER put bananas in the refrigerator!"
I assume she had box cars in mind.

regards,
Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Jim Betz
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:01 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Going Bananas ...

My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru
East Coast and Gulf ports - originally - and then that there were
changes in shipping and in the overall demand (due as much to
population
as anything else) and so some of the bananas started to be shipped
to West Coast ports via the Panama Canal. As population grew in the
West more and more of the supply of bananas to the West coast came
to the West Coast via the canal. Then, later on, additional sources of
bananas started to be used that were shipped to the U.S. from Pacific
ports. With modern refridgeration bananas and other perishables can
be shipped by almost any route because they are loaded into containers
that each have their own temperature control mechanisms.
Enough general overview - I know that there were cars such as the
W.I.F. cars that at least advertised bananas - but those cars were
box cars. Were bananas shipped without refridgeration in the
STMFC era?
- Jim in San Jose




Yahoo! Groups Links


Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Au contraire, Andy,

Whatever Chiquita said, bananas always went in refrigerator cars on the
Illinois Central, for as long as they were shipped out of New Orleans (until
the mid 1960s, that is). The reefers (I remember mostly steel NRC cars with
orange sides, brown roof and ends, and green IC diamonds) were iced at the
IC's Stuyvesant Yard on the Mississippi riverfront, and re-iced (as needed)
at Fulton, Ken., on their way north. At Fulton, foremen checked the
temperature of bananas in each car and adjusted the ice loading to keep the
fruit within a specified temperature range. But remember, the bananas were
shipped green and the idea was not to allow them to ripen until sold.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


ljack70117@...
 

Never put bananas in the refrigerator means after they are ripened. They will turn black. Ship bananas at 45/50 degrees while they are green if you want to keep them green. Higher degrees will start them ripening.
I worked in a produce house in Salina Ks. We had three banana rooms I unloaded a car into the first room and it was set at 45 degrees and the bananas were green
The second room was full and was holding at 45 degrees.
The third room was set at 70 degrees and the bananas were ripe and were being sold to the stores. When that room got down to a two day supply room 2 was raised to 70 degrees and the bananas started to ripen. It took about two days to ripen them.
When room one one went mty it was set at 45 degrees and I unloaded the next cat to arrive into it. And the whole routine started again.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Miller, Andrew S. wrote:

Chiquita used to say:
"NEVER put bananas in the refrigerator!"
I assume she had box cars in mind.

regards,
Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Jim Betz
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:01 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Going Bananas ...

My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru
East Coast and Gulf ports - originally - and then that there were
changes in shipping and in the overall demand (due as much to
population
as anything else) and so some of the bananas started to be shipped
to West Coast ports via the Panama Canal. As population grew in the
West more and more of the supply of bananas to the West coast came
to the West Coast via the canal. Then, later on, additional sources of
bananas started to be used that were shipped to the U.S. from Pacific
ports. With modern refridgeration bananas and other perishables can
be shipped by almost any route because they are loaded into containers
that each have their own temperature control mechanisms.
Enough general overview - I know that there were cars such as the
W.I.F. cars that at least advertised bananas - but those cars were
box cars. Were bananas shipped without refridgeration in the
STMFC era?
- Jim in San Jose




Yahoo! Groups Links






Yahoo! Groups Links



mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:

My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru
East Coast and Gulf ports. . . Were bananas shipped without
refrigeration. . .

I grew up in Weehawken, NJ, )in New York Harbor) in sight of the
United Fruit Co. banana facility (of which I had a birds-eye view from
atop the Palisades).

NYC had an ice plant and two icing platforms in Weehawken, one
platform was adjacent to the pier. I never saw anything but 40-foot
steel reefers at the United Fruit facility. The majority were MDT
cars, with a few NRC's. This was in the d----l era, early sixties, but
I doubt that the operation had changed much since the end of steam.

The ice plant was located near the 48th Street tunnel portal and ice
was moved to the icing platform near the banana pier, a half mile or
so, in a couple of 40-foot wood MDT cars. I don't clearly recall, but
I'd bet the cars were iced in warmer weather and not in the winter.
I've read that the optimum temperature for storage and transport of
bananas is 56-58 degrees, so perhaps not much ice was used.

Walt Lankenau


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Miller wrote:
Chiquita used to say:
"NEVER put bananas in the refrigerator!"
I assume she had box cars in mind.
It's already been explained that this refers to ripe ones. And for those who don't know, the skin of a ripe or nearly ripe table banana turning brown or black does NOT affect the interior, at least not for several days. So you don't really "ruin" the banana in the refrigerator, though it's understandably not very salable in a market with darkened skin.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: ljack70117@...

Never put bananas in the refrigerator means after they are ripened.
They will turn black. Ship bananas at 45/50 degrees while they are
green if you want to keep them green. Higher degrees will start them
ripening.
----- Original Message -----

On of our graduate assistants in college had worked on the docks in Taiwan. He was there when a banana ship opened up it hold after setting the thermostats to 45C, rather than 45F. . .

KL


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:
My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru
East Coast and Gulf ports...n[snip] Were bananas shipped without
refridgeration in the STMFC era?

A search thru the archives will turn up several old threads where bananna
shipments were discussed in detail. I don't recall if any dealt with your
question specifically but there certain was discussion about ports,
preferred cariers, shipment routes, service levels, and the obligatory side
track of why Richard and Tony don't like the Pennsy. 8-)

Dave Nelson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:
My understanding is that the majority of the bananas came in thru East Coast and Gulf ports...n[snip] Were bananas shipped without refridgeration in the STMFC era?
Dave Nelson replied:
A search thru the archives will turn up several old threads where bananna shipments were discussed in detail. I don't recall if any dealt with your question specifically but there certain was discussion about ports, preferred cariers, shipment routes, service levels, and the obligatory side track of why Richard and Tony don't like the Pennsy. 8-)
There are specific details in the PFE book (p. 372). Recommended shipping temperatures are tabulated on p. 345. No need to read the opinions of past posts <g>.
BTW, Dave, though I can't speak for Richard, I don't dislike the Pennsy, I just find its fans excessively reverent towards it. Poking fun at such people is irresistible. Fact is, the Pennsy had plenty to be humble about, as did nearly all railroads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


ljack70117@...
 

Tony
I totally disagree with you on color and taste. Anything past yellow with a bit of green in is beyond good taste. I love them green with the yellow just starting to break. But that is me. Black is ready for the garbage pail. But my wife will eat most any color banana.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Mar 21, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Andy Miller wrote:
Chiquita used to say:
"NEVER put bananas in the refrigerator!"
I assume she had box cars in mind.
It's already been explained that this refers to ripe ones. And for
those who don't know, the skin of a ripe or nearly ripe table banana
turning brown or black does NOT affect the interior, at least not for
several days. So you don't really "ruin" the banana in the
refrigerator, though it's understandably not very salable in a market
with darkened skin.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


ljack70117@...
 

Yesssssssssssss. ANDddddddddddd
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Mar 21, 2007, at 7:35 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: ljack70117@...

Never put bananas in the refrigerator means after they are ripened.
They will turn black. Ship bananas at 45/50 degrees while they are
green if you want to keep them green. Higher degrees will start them
ripening.
----- Original Message -----

On of our graduate assistants in college had worked on the docks in Taiwan.
He was there when a banana ship opened up it hold after setting the
thermostats to 45C, rather than 45F. . .

KL




Yahoo! Groups Links



Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
A search thru the archives will turn up several old threads where banana
shipments were discussed in detail. I don't recall if any dealt with
your question specifically but there certain was discussion about ports,
preferred carriers, shipment routes, service levels, and the obligatory
side track of why Richard and Tony don't like the Pennsy. 8-)

Dave Nelson
===






David, David, David...

How can you say that Tony doesn't like the Pennsy?

I was once at a meeting where Tony gave a talk on Modeling the Pennsy!

It was titled (some like) "Modeling the Pennsy... Without Brain Damage" ;>)

Peter
"With Tongue firmly held in cheek!!"

--
--
Peter J. McClosky
http://home.earthlink.net/~pmcclosky
pmcclosky@...


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry Jackman wrote:
I totally disagree with you on color and taste. Anything past yellow with a bit of green in is beyond good taste. I love them green with the yellow just starting to break. But that is me. Black is ready for the garbage pail. But my wife will eat most any color banana.
There is, of course, no accounting for taste <g>. If you ever have a banana daiquiri in the tropics, Larry, don't watch them make it: they use a really black banana (inside as well as outside) to get the really intense, sweet banana fruit taste. In my opinion, it's a GREAT drink. But then, I do like bananas, while my wife is happy to skip anything with bananas in it.
Maybe Mike can help here--is this conceivably getting off topic ???

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Peter J. McClosky wrote:
David, David, David...
How can you say that Tony doesn't like the Pennsy?
I was once at a meeting where Tony gave a talk on Modeling the Pennsy!
It was titled (some like) "Modeling the Pennsy... Without Brain Damage" ;>)
Yep, that's the exact title. A true Pennsy freight car expert, Gary Rauch, sat through it once (it DOES contain some abuse of Pennsy shortcomings), and afterwards I asked him, with a little trepidation, what he thought. "Well," he said, with downcast eyes, "it hurt but it was all true."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 21, 2007, at 6:33 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

BTW, Dave, though I can't speak for Richard, I don't dislike the
Pennsy, I just find its fans excessively reverent towards it. Poking
fun at such people is irresistible. Fact is, the Pennsy had plenty to
be humble about, as did nearly all railroads.
Now that I'm back on the list after a trip out of town (to Hawaii, in fact), I can speak for myself on this subject. I entirely agree with Tony, and I will add that I have always found the pretentiousness of the PRR's mechanical department during the steam era to be both unwarranted and annoying (as did the mechanical officials of many other RRs). With regard to freight cars, the PRR's claim to be the "standard railroad of the world" bordered on the ludicrious, as almost all of their freight car designs, though often built in very large numbers, were unique, eccentric, and seldom copied by other RRs. It didn't help that PRR's J. Harold Geisel, who chaired the ARA committee on car construction in the 1920s, was notoriously arrogant and abrasive, a fact which helps to explain why the proposed 1924 ARA steel box car, based on the PRR's X29, failed to be approved as a standard design.

Through the 1920s and 1930s, the PRR persisted in building cars with roofs, underframes, trucks, etc. of obsolete in-house design which were notably deficient by comparison with contemporary car building practice. They were still building undersize X29s in 1934 with roofs that were prone to leak, truck sideframes that were prone to crack, and side sheathing that trapped water and rusted out. And as late as 1941, they were building X37s on what was essentially the X29 underframe, long after the superiority of the AAR standard box car underframe had been well demonstrated. Meanwhile, they were continuing to assert that PRR engineering was superior to everyone else's.

Of course, it was also the case that all of the PRR's steam loco designs after the mid-1920s were disasters, some worse than others, though that is off-topic, so I won't dwell on it.

The pre-eminence of the Pennsy, both its operating and mechanical departments, peaked early in the 20th century and rapidly declined thereafter owing to arrogance and bad management, with the post-World-War-I squandering of capital on its ill-conceived electrification project hastening its eventual demise. So I think it is fair to say that, In the era most of us on this list model, the Pennsy's size made it an important railroad but, in many particulars, it fell far short of being a great railroad.

It's not hard to understand why the PRR has been, and continues to be, popular with a large number of modelers; it was a very large RR that served a sizable and heavily populated part of the country, and much of its rolling stock was distinctive in design. So I have no quarrel whatever with those who model it, a number of whom I count among my personal friends, as long as they avoid the tendency of their prototype railroad to be excessively pretentious.

Richard Hendrickson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote (in the midst of perfectly sensible comments):

. . . It didn't help that PRR's J. Harold Geisel, who chaired the ARA committee on car
construction in the 1920s, was notoriously arrogant and abrasive . . .
I think the name you meant to type was W.F. Kiesel. Geisel was someone else. But your description of Kiesel is right on target.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

The pre-eminence of the Pennsy, both its operating and mechanical
departments, peaked early in the 20th century and rapidly declined
thereafter owing to arrogance and bad management, with the
post-World-War-I squandering of capital on its ill-conceived
electrification project hastening its eventual demise.
Oh that's just silly. The SP had "ill-conceived elecrification"
projects, and built large new passenger terminals long after the
decline in passenger traffic was well under way. I agree the PRR
was arrogant, but so were most other railroads -- pride and tunnel
vision were widespread traits of railroad management.

The PRR, NYC, B&O, NH, B&M, Erie, Lackawanna, LV -- ALL of them
declined precipitously following WWII. And all of the western roads
thrived in the 20 years after WWII. Gee, could it have something to
do with the population explosion in the west, and the shifting of
industry to wide open spaces where longer hauls were the norm? If it
hadn't been for Powder River coal and trade with Asia, we'd have
had a western version of the pre-Conrail meltdown by now...


Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Now that I'm back on the list after a trip out of town (to Hawaii, in
fact), I can speak for myself on this subject. I entirely agree with
Tony, and I will add that I have always found the pretentiousness of
the PRR's mechanical department during the steam era to be both
unwarranted and annoying (as did the mechanical officials of many
other RRs). With regard to freight cars, [snip... Many paragraphs of
Richard smooshing an overripe bannana into the face of the Pennsy, it's
executives, mechanical engineers, Phoaming Pennsy Phreaks, signature and
Yahoogroups advertisements, all trimmed for brevity).

See? Banannas do it every time! <VBG>

Dave Nelson


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Ripe bananas were a good deal for tug boat crews moving car floats of reefers loaded with bananas from Standard Fruit, pier 3 East River to W. 72nd St. and Weehawken. If they were yellow they wouldn't last as far as a supermarket shelf. When I rode a tug while I was working for NYC developing a schedule to expedite banana movement, I went home with all the yellow bananas I could carry.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


armprem
 

Tim,IMHO it was a matter of "long haul", as opposed to"Short haul ".Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Going Bananas ...


>
>>The pre-eminence of the Pennsy, both its operating and mechanical
>>departments, peaked early in the 20th century and rapidly declined
>>thereafter owing to arrogance and bad management, with the
>>post-World-War-I squandering of capital on its ill-conceived
>>electrification project hastening its eventual demise.
>
> Oh that's just silly. The SP had "ill-conceived elecrification"
> projects, and built large new passenger terminals long after the
> decline in passenger traffic was well under way. I agree the PRR
> was arrogant, but so were most other railroads -- pride and tunnel
> vision were widespread traits of railroad management.
>
> The PRR, NYC, B&O, NH, B&M, Erie, Lackawanna, LV -- ALL of them
> declined precipitously following WWII. And all of the western roads
> thrived in the 20 years after WWII. Gee, could it have something to
> do with the population explosion in the west, and the shifting of
> industry to wide open spaces where longer hauls were the norm? If it
> hadn't been for Powder River coal and trade with Asia, we'd have
> had a western version of the pre-Conrail meltdown by now...
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 3/20/2007 8:07 AM
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------