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GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?
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laramielarry <ostresh@...>
A.T. Kott describes the GN series 31000-31300 as being single-sheathed
boxcars: Have you run across any files or drawings (other than diagramHowever, the GN series 31000-31499 appears in Ben Hom's Excel file "USRA DS Boxcars.xls", on this list, as double-sheathed USRA Clones. Does anyone know which is correct? Ben's file includes this information: Railroad: GN Original Number Series, No. of Cars: (blank), (blank) 1940 Number Series, No. of Cars 1940: 31000-31499, 496 1950 Number Series, No. of Cars 1950: 31000-31499, 489 1955 Number Series, No. of Cars 1955: 31000-31499, 476 Prototype Notes: 7/8 Murphy Ends, AB Brakes, Ajax Hand Brakes, Side Ladders, Corrugated Steel Doors, Additional Side Corner Reinforcements Thanks, Larry Ostresh Laramie, Wyoming |
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Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
GN drawing 2443 of 10-May-40 is a painting layout for
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single sheathed box cars in series 31000-31499 with 6' Youngstown all steel doors. Cars undergoing general repairs after 01-Oct-56 paint as follows: Car body and outside of side sill: Vermillion Red Freight Car Paint, #1256 Glidden Vermillion Underframe and trucks: Box Car Mineral Red Lettering on outside of car: Glidden No.2 White Stencil Paste Lettering in inside of car: Glidden Black An aside: Cars with cement floors I.H. 8'11", Cu.Ft. 3077 Otherwise I.H. 9'0", Cu.Ft. 3098 This drawing has obviously been modified to move the circular monogram higher and slightly to the right. It does not show a date for that or any other modification. Russ Strodtz ----- Original Message -----
From: laramielarry To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 14:50 Subject: [STMFC] GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed? A.T. Kott describes the GN series 31000-31300 as being single-sheathed boxcars: > Have you run across any files or drawings (other than diagram > book page drawings) of the Great Northern 40' single-sheathed boxcars > in series GN #31000 - #31300 at the Minnesota Historical Society? I > obtained some GN diagram book copies and steam loco erecting drawing > copies from them a good 30 years ago, but they did not have anything > on this class of GN boxcars then. The cars were still in service > back when GN donated material to them! They were the only GN single- > sheathed 40' cars. The underframes were constructed by the Pressed > Steel Car Co. and the "box" was made by GN, as I recall, back in 1930 > or so. A.T. Kott However, the GN series 31000-31499 appears in Ben Hom's Excel file "USRA DS Boxcars.xls", on this list, as double-sheathed USRA Clones. Does anyone know which is correct? Ben's file includes this information: Railroad: GN Original Number Series, No. of Cars: (blank), (blank) 1940 Number Series, No. of Cars 1940: 31000-31499, 496 1950 Number Series, No. of Cars 1950: 31000-31499, 489 1955 Number Series, No. of Cars 1955: 31000-31499, 476 Prototype Notes: 7/8 Murphy Ends, AB Brakes, Ajax Hand Brakes, Side Ladders, Corrugated Steel Doors, Additional Side Corner Reinforcements Thanks, Larry Ostresh Laramie, Wyoming |
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Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
Sunshine produces a model of the GN 31000-31499 series single sheathed
boxcar. The catalog sheet includes a photo of GN 31174 and it is definitely single sheathed. Jim Hayes Portland Oregon ._,___ |
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al_brown03
Hickcox's "GN Color Guide" (Morning Sun, '95), p36, shows GN 31411
and 31483, Pratt truss single-sheathed boxcars per Sunshine 77.1 and 77.2. These weren't GN's only 40' single-sheathed boxcars. GN 44320 was a one-of-a-kind single-sheathed version of their plywood-sheathed WWII boxcars. Its wood single sheathing was replaced with steel later; I haven't seen an as-built picture, but for its rebuilt form, see the same page of Hickcox's book, also Richard Hendrickson's article in MM 9/94, p38. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In STMFC@..., "Jim & Lisa Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@...> wrote: sheathed boxcar. The catalog sheet includes a photo of GN 31174 and it isdefinitely single sheathed. |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:
Reinforcements Larry - As you probably know by now, they were single-sheathed boxcars. I mis-stated the number series; it should be GN #31000 - #31499. I post from memory, since the computer is at the office and my train stuff is at home. I did scale drawings for these cars several years ago for UltraScale II (Chooch), and they produced an EXCELLENT urethane kit for the cars (Kit #605). Jim Zwernemann did the patterns. All I had to work with was about 5 or 6 photos, a GN diagram, and a photo of the PSCCo. underframe in a PSCCo. catalog (in Spanish!) We could not find any further information on the "boxes" that GN built on the underframes; hence my request. The cars were originally built with 7/8 Murphy ends and corrugated doors, AB brakes, and a bunch of steel braces at the ends and doors - really neat cars! A.T. Kott |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@...> wrote:
Russ - Thank you very much! Cement floors!! What did they think the cars were - Pullman heavyweights?? Thankfully, that is out of my time period, but I'll bet there is an interesting story there as to why cement! Also interesting that the inside was painted. A.T. Kott |
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Larry Ostresh wrote:
"A.T. Kott describes the GN series 31000-31300 as being single- sheathed boxcars <<snip>> However, the GN series 31000-31499 appears in Ben Hom's Excel file "USRA DS Boxcars.xls", on this list, as double-sheathed USRA Clones. Does anyone know which is correct?" As others have pointed out, this is incorrect. The root of this error is a caption for a Cordell Newby photo of GN 30411 on page 39 of the May 1988 issue of Model Railroading, which stated that "Some of these modernized cars, renumbered into the 30000 and 31000 series, were still in revenue service in the 60s", implying that the 31000 series cars were also double-sheathed cars (which they obviously are not). I'll upload a corrected copy of the speadsheet early next week after I get back from the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting/Reserve Drill Weekend. Ben Hom |
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Chet French <cfrench@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:
I purchased one of these cars at Naperville last fall and didn't notice until I returned home that the kit included a red circular monogram instead of a black one. That's what I get for doing a quick job of reading the label. What time frame was the red monogram used? I model the summer of 1951. Chet French Dixon, IL |
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laramielarry <ostresh@...>
Thanks for the clarification, Ben. And thanks to all those who
provided such useful information about the series. Larry Ostresh Laramie, Wyoming --- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote: appears in Ben Hom's Excel file "USRA DS Boxcars.xls", on this list, asseries, were still in revenue service in the 60s", implying that the 31000are not).after I get back from the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting/Reserve Drill Weekend. |
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RICH NUNN <flyingtigers_nunn@...>
Dear Jim & Lisa:
Would you happen to know offhand what the sunshine kit # is for this car? Thanks, Rich Nunn --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. |
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RICH NUNN <flyingtigers_nunn@...>
Dear Chet and other listers:
The GN herald that you need has a black center and says "Great Northern Railway" in the lettering around the goat. These would be correct IMHO for your time frame. Only one of the GN 31000 series cars had a red ring. It was a one-of-a-kind car, painted glacier green in 1963. Most of the red ring GN heralds that I am aware of were used on steam locomotive tenders. Please consult Dave Hickcox"s book GN Color Guide to Freight and Passenger equipment, on page36. There are 3 color shots of the 31000 series cars there. Even the glacier green one. Thanks, Rich Nunn --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Ben Hom wrote:
As others have pointed out, this is incorrect. The root of this error is a caption for a Cordell Newby photo of GN 30411 on page 39 of the May 1988 issue of Model Railroading, which stated that "Some of these modernized cars, renumbered into the 30000 and 31000 series, were still in revenue service in the 60s", implying that the 31000 series cars were also double-sheathed cars (which they obviously are not).And Rich Nunn wrote: Please consult Dave Hickcox"s book GN Color Guide to Freight and Passenger equipment, on page36. There are 3 color shots of the 31000 series cars there. Even the glacier green one.Some might also wish to consult Richard Hendrickson and Staffan Ehnbom's fine chapter on GN freight cars, in Dorin's "GN Lines East," and yes, they got this car series right. Mention of special interest: yes again, Signature did publish the book. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
Rich, it's 77.1 with the black background herald and 77.2 with the red.
Jim Hayes Portland Oregon Would you happen to know offhand what the sunshine kit # is for this car? Thanks, Rich Nunn |
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Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
Al,
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Fairly certain I have a color slide of this car. Over a period of a week or so did some creative switching to wait for good light and get it in the right spot. Even held it off the demurrage records 'til I was ready to use it. Naughty! Naughty! Russ Strodtz ----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03 To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 18:36 Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed? Hickcox's "GN Color Guide" (Morning Sun, '95), p36, shows GN 31411 and 31483, Pratt truss single-sheathed boxcars per Sunshine 77.1 and 77.2. These weren't GN's only 40' single-sheathed boxcars. GN 44320 was a one-of-a-kind single-sheathed version of their plywood-sheathed WWII boxcars. Its wood single sheathing was replaced with steel later; I haven't seen an as-built picture, but for its rebuilt form, see the same page of Hickcox's book, also Richard Hendrickson's article in MM 9/94, p38. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In STMFC@..., "Jim & Lisa Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@...> wrote: > > Sunshine produces a model of the GN 31000-31499 series single sheathed > boxcar. The catalog sheet includes a photo of GN 31174 and it is definitely > single sheathed. > > > > Jim Hayes > > Portland Oregon > > ._,___ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
I did not say the inside was painted, only said that
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any inside lettering was to be black. That would include the car initial and number and the grain loading lines, which are covered in another drawing. I'd say cars built primarily for grain loading seldom had the interiors painted. Russ Strodtz ----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 19:28 Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed? --- In STMFC@..., "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@...> wrote: > > GN drawing 2443 of 10-May-40 is a painting layout for > single sheathed box cars in series 31000-31499 with > 6' Youngstown all steel doors. > > Cars undergoing general repairs after 01-Oct-56 paint as follows: > > Car body and outside of side sill: Vermillion Red Freight Car > Paint, #1256 Glidden Vermillion > Underframe and trucks: Box Car Mineral Red > Lettering on outside of car: Glidden No.2 White Stencil Paste > Lettering in inside of car: Glidden Black > > An aside: Cars with cement floors I.H. 8'11", Cu.Ft. 3077 > Otherwise I.H. 9'0", Cu.Ft. 3098 > > This drawing has obviously been modified to move the circular > monogram higher and slightly to the right. It does not show a > date for that or any other modification. > > Russ Strodtz Russ - Thank you very much! Cement floors!! What did they think the cars were - Pullman heavyweights?? Thankfully, that is out of my time period, but I'll bet there is an interesting story there as to why cement! Also interesting that the inside was painted. A.T. Kott Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Chet French To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 21:18 Subject: [STMFC] Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed? --- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote: > > --- In STMFC@..., "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@> wrote: > > > > GN drawing 2443 of 10-May-40 is a painting layout for > > single sheathed box cars in series 31000-31499 with > > 6' Youngstown all steel doors. > > > > Cars undergoing general repairs after 01-Oct-56 paint as follows: > > > > Car body and outside of side sill: Vermillion Red Freight Car > > Paint, #1256 Glidden Vermillion > > Underframe and trucks: Box Car Mineral Red > > Lettering on outside of car: Glidden No.2 White Stencil Paste > > Lettering in inside of car: Glidden Black > > > > An aside: Cars with cement floors I.H. 8'11", Cu.Ft. 3077 > > Otherwise I.H. 9'0", Cu.Ft. 3098 > > > > This drawing has obviously been modified to move the circular > > monogram higher and slightly to the right. It does not show a > > date for that or any other modification. I purchased one of these cars at Naperville last fall and didn't notice until I returned home that the kit included a red circular monogram instead of a black one. That's what I get for doing a quick job of reading the label. What time frame was the red monogram used? I model the summer of 1951. Chet French Dixon, IL Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
Chet,
You wrote: I purchased one of these cars at Naperville last fall and didn't notice until I returned home that the kit included a red circular monogram instead of a black one. That's what I get for doing a quick job of reading the label. What time frame was the red monogram used? I model the summer of 1951. If the herald lettering says "GREAT NORTHERN" only and the circular background for the Goat is a bright red, this is probably a transitional herald that was used in the late forties. There is a photo of it used on the 31144 in GNRHS reference sheet no. 42 (on GN 30000 double wood sheath and 31000 single wood sheath series box cars). I'm happy to tell you the photo date is August of 1951! Staffan Ehnbom |
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
Al,
You wrote: These weren't GN's only 40' single-sheathed boxcars. GN 44320 was a one-of-a-kind single-sheathed version of their plywood-sheathed WWII boxcars. Its wood single sheathing was replaced with steel later; I haven't seen an as-built picture, but for its rebuilt form, see the same page of Hickcox's book, also Richard Hendrickson's article in MM 9/94 The 31000 series was the only 40' wood single sheath box cars on the GN. There were a couple of 40' steel single sheath car series like the 44320 Al mentioned and the 4200 and 4400 series, all of them rebuilds of former double wood sheath plywood side cars from the 44025 series. Staffan Ehnbom |
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Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
I did scale drawings for these cars several years ago for UltraScale
II (Chooch), and they produced an EXCELLENT urethane kit for the cars (Kit #605). Jim Zwernemann did the patterns. All I had to work with was about 5 or 6 photos, a GN diagram, and a photo of the PSCCo. underframe in a PSCCo. catalog (in Spanish!) We could not find any further information on the "boxes" that GN built on the underframes; hence my request. The cars were originally built with 7/8 Murphy ends and corrugated doors, AB brakes, and a bunch of steel braces at the ends and doors - really neat cars! A.T. Kott How nice to hear you did a drawing for this one. It would be very interesting to have more info on that underframe as it seems to have a slightly unusual shallow fish belly shape? And did you have a picture of one of these with 7/8 Murphy ends? That sounds more like the USRA clone 30000 series that keeps popping up in this thread. The 31000 had 3/5 dreadnaught ends as far as I know and wood doors to start with and the herald painted on the door like the 50' automobile cars. Changed to steel doors probably in the thirties. staffan dot ehnbom at telia dot com |
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proto48er
--- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...>
wrote: UltraScale II (Chooch), and they produced an EXCELLENT urethane kit for thecars (Kit #605). Jim Zwernemann did the patterns. All I had to work withunderframes; hence my request.doors - really neat cars!interesting to have more info on that underframe as it seems to have a slightly unusual shallow fish belly shape? And did you have a picture of one of these with 7/8 Murphy ends? That sounds more like the USRA clone 30000 series that keeps popping up in this thread. The 31000 had 3/5 dreadnaught ends as far as I know and wood doors to start with and the herald painted on the door like the 50' automobile cars. Changed to steel doors probably in the thirties. Staffan - I have all my train stuff at home and the computer is at the office, so the post about the car ends was from memory - you are probably correct that they were 3/5 Dred. ends. I have not seen those drawings for several years. I recall that even in the earliest photo we had (1930?), the car already had Youngstown steel doors. Do you have any photos showing them with a wood door? I will send you a copy of my drawings if you email me your snail mail address - I do not have a scanner. The drawings are "O" scale. Thanks! A.T. Kott |
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