Date
1 - 20 of 21
HOME HEATING COAL
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joel norman <mec-bml@...>
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O) HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S??? IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS???? THANKS JOEL NORMAN
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Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
Joel,
You may try the New haven list for help with this one. The NH had coal docks on the east coast to transfer to cars for delivery. One I recall was in New Bedford, MA. Also, there was a Mystic Coal facility in the back of Boston Harbor served by the B&M. As a youngin' I remember seeing the B&A hoppers spotted out in the Allston / Brighton area, as well as the Newton area. There are several choices depending on your RR if interest; or you can use one or two from each. The only other hoppers I recall were PRR and an occasional B&O. Most, if not all were the twin hoppers. Only the power plants rec'd the larger 3 and 4 pocket cars. hope this helps in your search for accurate info. Fred Freitas joel norman <mec-bml@...> wrote: ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP: 1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O) HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S??? IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS???? THANKS JOEL NORMAN
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Joel
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All of them DELIVERED home heating coal. Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England customers. Tim O'Connor
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From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...> ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
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boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
This is more of a question than an answer.
Didn't a couple of New England roads have coal import port facilities? (Example, BAR at Searsport) This would have allowed coal originating on roads such as N&W and C&O to arrive by water and be delivered in home road cars. John King --- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote: coal would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolasEngland customers.HEATING B&O)COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE THEHOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
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Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Tim,
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Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there. We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly all of this would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would partly account for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven. At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric which went down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff timboconnor@... wrote:
Joel
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Actually, most of the barged coal was consumed along the coastlines. And I
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did say "most" coal, not all.
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From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> Tim,
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Schuyler Larrabee
Only D&H and NYC, and DL&W and O&W, and RDG, and B&O and PRR, and a few more, Tim. Your list of
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coal originating roads is way too short . Delivery, yes, NYC and D&H could both make it into New England, though the D&H was only a toehold. But all New England railroads delivered hoppers of coal, for home heating and for industrial use, back when we had some industry in New England. SGL La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!
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Schuyler Larrabee
I know that the DL&W had sea-going tugs which were built for the purpose of taking barges of
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Anthracite to New England ports. I know, further, that one port was Salem, MA. I suspect that other ports were in Maine, and Portsmouth NH, New Bedford MA, and points in RI and CT. But I don't have any proof of these last. SGL La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!
-----Original Message-----
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Read the whole sentence Schuyler -- only < > served coal mines
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AND (a logical conjunction, you're familiar with it?) [could] deliver coal directly to NEW ENGLAND customers. DL&W did not run in any of the New England states. Nor did B&O, PRR, O&W, RDG, etc.
At 7/10/2007 09:53 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
Only D&H and NYC, and DL&W and O&W, and RDG, and B&O and PRR, and a few more, Tim. Your list of
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
For what it is worth, during the years that I lived on a farmstead in northern Vermont, we heated the house primarily with anthracite from Pennsylvania (supplemented with gas [propane] and wood). Although this was in the years after rail transport, my understanding at the time was that anthracite had been the primary coal sold for home heating for some decades- thus implying coal at one time being shipped into Vermont in Reading or D&H cars.
I have had a LOT of experience shovelling, laying up, and burning anthracite coal- and it was an acquired skill and art. It lived up to its reputation as being a very hot clean fuel, however, and the daily transport of ashes out to coat the public dirt road in front of the house was in fact always very light duty. Denny Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento
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Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
Rather than make responses to all of the posts on this, I'll just summarize my reactions to them.
I believe most of the home heating coal in New England was anthracite, which was preferred because it made less smoke. The closest coal mines to New England were the anthracite mines in the Scranton area. To get bituminous to New England would have been a much longer haul, the nearest being the Clearfield district. As for marks, originating roads were Erie, DL&W, LV, CNJ, PRR, NYO&W, D&H and RDG, but not B&O. However, since B&O shared it's route to New York with RDG and CNJ, it would not be surprising that their cars would be coming into NE with anthracite. The other highly likely foreign mark from those mines would be NYC. As for routes and destinations: - The furthest east junctions of the anthracite roads were Rutland, VT, Mechanicville, NY and Maybrook, NY. That means that all of it had to move on NH, NYC, B&M or RUT, but destinations could be anywhere on CV, MEC, BAR, GT and the short lines. - Every town in New england would have received anthracite loads as there was a coal dealer in every town of any size - like fuel oil dealers today. As for that barge coal, it was mostly from bituminous areas, and I believe it went mainly to power plants. It's interesting to note that most of the large power plants in CT and RI and around NYC are on navigable waterways. One notable exception. When I was a small boy, I would look out of my father's office on the 55th floor of 60 Wall and watch the cars rolling through the CNJ car dumper. Pretty strong evidence of barging of anthracite also. Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
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armprem
Gasification plants were still continued burning cheaper soft coal.RutlandTrain #10 brought much coal to Vermont via the NYCinterchange at Norwood,NY.TheD&H brought coal to Center Rutland and Rouses Point,NY.The Central Vermont may have picked up some coal at New London.Does anyone have evidence?Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Laughlin" <mlaughlinnyc@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL Rather than make responses to all of the posts on this, I'll just summarize my reactions to them.
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William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
This seems to explain the surprisingly large Rutland hopper car fleet,
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doesn't it? It always seemed a bit unusual for a Vermont carrier to have so many hoppers. Regards, William Bryk
On 7/11/07, Armand Premo <armprem@...> wrote:
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Don't forget the Rutland served a port on Lake Ontario. A lot
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of coal travelled on the Great Lakes.
At 7/11/2007 09:29 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
This seems to explain the surprisingly large Rutland hopper car fleet,
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MDelvec952
In a message dated 7/12/2007 9:35:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
r111369@... writes: In Ogdensburg Rutland hoppers used in coal service for the state hospital in Ogdensburg, NY. ------------------ I, for one, learned a bit from this thread. Back in the 1980s when I felt like Jersey's only freight car buff (preservationists' attentions seemed strictly locomotive back then), I was involved with several museums and historical societies around the country and trying to get surviving steam era cars into collections. There were a short string of two-pocket DL&W hoppers, including a two with offset sides, stranded at that hospital in Ogdensburg at that time. As sometimes happened, disturbing the owner of a car in the effort to save it can cause its demise. In this case, one out of the five got preserved, the offset side car, which is currently at the fairgrounds in Syracuse and owned by the Central New York Chapter NRHS. I always thought it odd that these things got stranded up there, since even the Erie-Lackawanna didn't want them back. Mike Del Vecchio ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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armprem
You are absolutely correct Tim.The Rutland had a terminal in Ogdensburgh ,NY.I think this operation was largely for domestic use.Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:45 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL
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B.T. Charles
--- In STMFC@..., "William Bryk" <wmbryk@...> wrote:
have so many hoppers.Without digging too deep into my records and books, and open to correction… The Rutland's large fleet of hopper cars can be deceiving, given the territory and eras covered. The original USRA 55 ton hoppers (10000-10099 series, 100 in class) were used primarily to move soft coal from stores at Ogdensburg, NY and Alburgh, VT for company service and on line customers. In bound coal drags came off the NYC at Chatham, and were sent directly to the customers, or taken to the Alburgh coal trestle, transferred into the 10000 class hoppers, or stored for later demand to eliminate demurrage charges. Even when down graded to home road only status, there are reported sightings of the 10000 series hoppers in New York City, stenciled for such service. The later 700 series hoppers (750-764, 15 total) were purchased used. In Ogdensburg Rutland hoppers used in coal service for the state hospital in Ogdensburg, NY. Rutland hoppers were also used in sand service for "Seaway Building Supply in Ogdensburg. Cars regularly assigned towards the end to Ogdensburg coal and sand service were; "763, 10039, 761, 762, 10095, 753, 756, 750, 10031, 10026". (Nimke Vol. VI Part 1 p186) Hope this helps… Rome Romano
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armprem
The Rutland 10000 series hoppers WERE NOT USRA hoppers.They were built earlier and were very similar to the Pennsy GLAs.If you check the dimensions you will see the differences>Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rome" <r111369@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL --- In STMFC@..., "William Bryk" <wmbryk@...> wrote: have so many hoppers.Without digging too deep into my records and books, and open to correction. The Rutland's large fleet of hopper cars can be deceiving, given the territory and eras covered. The original USRA 55 ton hoppers (10000-10099 series, 100 in class) were used primarily to move soft coal from stores at Ogdensburg, NY and Alburgh, VT for company service and on line customers. In bound coal drags came off the NYC at Chatham, and were sent directly to the customers, or taken to the Alburgh coal trestle, transferred into the 10000 class hoppers, or stored for later demand to eliminate demurrage charges. Even when down graded to home road only status, there are reported sightings of the 10000 series hoppers in New York City, stenciled for such service. The later 700 series hoppers (750-764, 15 total) were purchased used. In Ogdensburg Rutland hoppers used in coal service for the state hospital in Ogdensburg, NY. Rutland hoppers were also used in sand service for "Seaway Building Supply in Ogdensburg. Cars regularly assigned towards the end to Ogdensburg coal and sand service were; "763, 10039, 761, 762, 10095, 753, 756, 750, 10031, 10026". (Nimke Vol. VI Part 1 p186) Hope this helps. Rome Romano Yahoo! Groups Links
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armprem
As mentioned in a previous post the Rutland stopped sending their hoppers off-line to mines in 1923.Notewothy was the relatively large number of hopper bottom gons on the roster numbering some105 in 1930.Foreign hoppers were emptied and the coal was stored in a large coaling facility at Alburgh , in company hoppers,gons,and at times , on the ground.Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "William Bryk" <wmbryk@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL This seems to explain the surprisingly large Rutland hopper car fleet,
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B.T. Charles
"Armand Premo" <armprem@...> wrote:
Armand, thank you for the correction. While I am not a rivet counter, when posting I should be more accurate. The builders date I have readily at hand is 1915, the measurements are in a safe place... buried in my archives. I remember Jeff English telling me that to build a correct Rutland 10000 I had to start with a Westerfield 3 bay and cut it down, as a two bay was not available at the time. This was shortly after the Tichy "USRA" was produced with the wide middle panel. Rome
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