CPR Fowler box car end bracing:


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I am in the midst of modifying a few Canadian Hobbycraft fowler boxcars and was considering modifying then ends which presently have two "Z" section vertical braces.

As I understand it, while two was common enough, some cars had three and others four. I am wondering if there is an article or other reference out there I have somehow missed that attempts to sort out what number series were which. (Yes, I know the number series present their own issues as many of the cars were renumbered after construction. I model 1946 - if that helps). Alternately, perhaps there is a source that notes which of the many manufacturers, if any, used the various end bracing patterns. (The extra ribs may all have been rebuilds as the cars aged.)

By the way, it strikes me that these models should be re-run by the manufacturer - but with a modification from the earlier production. Instead of using the equal spaced side bracing the original run received, they ought to use the more correct unequally spaced bracing used on the stock car models..... A new floor - similar in quality to that used by True Line Trains on their recent CNR 1937 AAR cars would also be a welcome improvement.....

Thanks in advance,

Rob Kirkham
who is starting to give up waiting for NERS


jim peters
 

Good morning,

The information sheet from the Westerfield kits is most likely the best summary you will find. Also check Ian's site http://freightcars.nikina.net

I was unaware of any changes were ever made to the side framing.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC



From: Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] CPR Fowler box car end bracing:
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:11:45 -0700

I am in the midst of modifying a few Canadian Hobbycraft fowler boxcars and
was considering modifying then ends which presently have two "Z" section
vertical braces.

As I understand it, while two was common enough, some cars had three and
others four. I am wondering if there is an article or other reference out
there I have somehow missed that attempts to sort out what number series
were which. (Yes, I know the number series present their own issues as many
of the cars were renumbered after construction. I model 1946 - if that
helps). Alternately, perhaps there is a source that notes which of the many
manufacturers, if any, used the various end bracing patterns. (The extra
ribs may all have been rebuilds as the cars aged.)

By the way, it strikes me that these models should be re-run by the
manufacturer - but with a modification from the earlier production. Instead
of using the equal spaced side bracing the original run received, they ought
to use the more correct unequally spaced bracing used on the stock car
models..... A new floor - similar in quality to that used by True Line
Trains on their recent CNR 1937 AAR cars would also be a welcome
improvement.....

Thanks in advance,

Rob Kirkham
who is starting to give up waiting for NERS
_________________________________________________________________
Tell us your tech love story in the Summer Lovin Competition for your chance to win laptop loaded with Windows Vista, Office 2007 and Windows Live OneCare. http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/summerlovin/default.aspx


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks Jim for the reference to the Westerfield material. Actually, I have quite a number of the Westerfield kits (dark grey resin), but the instruction sheets don't break down the cars with differing end bracing styles - perhaps they are older sheets? It does indicate that number series 100000 - 139998 (even) and 200000 - 212499 are two brace cars, and that the earlier cars had more end braces. In any event, I was also referred to the Westerfield web page, and there one finds a very useful breakdown for all the cars which I expect I'll be able to follow.

Re the sides: its not the prototype sides that need to be or were changed. I was referring to the Canadian Hobbycraft boxcar model of a few years ago, which has 2 equally spaced side panels either side of the doors. It ought to have wider panels next to the doors and narrower ones toward the ends. They do this very nicely with the stock car model, and since the bracing (on both cars) is composed of glued on add-ons to the injection moulded car side, I am merely suggesting they use the side bracing from the stock cars to improve the box cars. Frankly, if they would just sell the side bracing for both car types as detail items, I'd be happy to use them for a number of projects.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "jim peters" <mikado2206@hotmail.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] CPR Fowler box car end bracing:


Good morning,

The information sheet from the Westerfield kits is most likely the best
summary you will find. Also check Ian's site http://freightcars.nikina.net

I was unaware of any changes were ever made to the side framing.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC



From: Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] CPR Fowler box car end bracing:
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:11:45 -0700

I am in the midst of modifying a few Canadian Hobbycraft fowler boxcars and
was considering modifying then ends which presently have two "Z" section
vertical braces.

As I understand it, while two was common enough, some cars had three and
others four. I am wondering if there is an article or other reference out
there I have somehow missed that attempts to sort out what number series
were which. (Yes, I know the number series present their own issues as
many
of the cars were renumbered after construction. I model 1946 - if that
helps). Alternately, perhaps there is a source that notes which of the
many
manufacturers, if any, used the various end bracing patterns. (The extra
ribs may all have been rebuilds as the cars aged.)

By the way, it strikes me that these models should be re-run by the
manufacturer - but with a modification from the earlier production.
Instead
of using the equal spaced side bracing the original run received, they
ought
to use the more correct unequally spaced bracing used on the stock car
models..... A new floor - similar in quality to that used by True Line
Trains on their recent CNR 1937 AAR cars would also be a welcome
improvement.....

Thanks in advance,

Rob Kirkham
who is starting to give up waiting for NERS
_________________________________________________________________
Tell us your tech love story in the Summer Lovin Competition for your chance
to win laptop loaded with Windows Vista, Office 2007 and Windows Live
OneCare.
http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/summerlovin/default.aspx




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Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thanks Jim for the reference to the Westerfield material. Actually,
I have
quite a number of the Westerfield kits (dark grey resin), but the
instruction sheets don't break down the cars with differing end bracing
styles - perhaps they are older sheets?
Rob,

I think you need to go back to the original source information, the
series of articles on the "Dominion car" published by Paul Clegg and
Stafford Swain in Mainline Modeler during '85 and '86. This multi
article series had development history, drawings, photos, details of
modifications, and a look at derivatives used by other roads. The
roster info you seek should be in there somewhere.

Dennis


robert_kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks Dennis,

I went back to those articles and have worked through the
Clegg/Swain material. It helps.

From these I discern that modellers have grouped the CPR cars into
three phases, of which phase I and II cars had four braces, and the
phase III cars had two. I haven't figured out where three brace
cars come in to play, and seem to have missed the article where
someone set out which number series falls within each phase
(assuming that ever occured in print). While I can piece some of it
together from the articles, I don't have much confidence that I have
the various groupings correctly and exhaustively identified.
Perhaps I'm assuming a lot in even suggesting that occured, but
thought I'd ask.

If there is no article I've missed on this topic, I'll spend some
time trying to sort out the data in the article compared to the
charts provided and put swomething together, - But I'd prefer to
save the effort if possible.

Looking at the CPR data for the early 1900's demonstrates that the
original research was very significant! The reality is that working
through the CPR number series, the re- numbered series, and
identifying the variants and changes in design is a bit of a
challenge.

Regards

Rob Kirkham


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "robert_kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thanks Dennis,

I went back to those articles and have worked through the
Clegg/Swain material. It helps.

From these I discern that modellers have grouped the CPR cars into
three phases, of which phase I and II cars had four braces, and the
phase III cars had two. I haven't figured out where three brace
cars come in to play, and seem to have missed the article where
someone set out which number series falls within each phase
(assuming that ever occured in print). While I can piece some of it
together from the articles, I don't have much confidence that I have
the various groupings correctly and exhaustively identified.
Perhaps I'm assuming a lot in even suggesting that occured, but
thought I'd ask.

Rob Kirkham
Rob,

If I recall correctly, the cars were built with either two or four Z
(that's "zed" since we're talking about Canadian cars :-) posts on the
ends. It seems I remember that the third centered post was a later
addition to some of the cars that had been built with only two end
posts, and that in some cases this added post was a length of old
rail. If I am correct, then it is likely discussed in one of the later
articles, and may not be noted in the rosters if the authors weren't
sure it was done to all the cars in a series.

As an aside, the Soo Line has one series of these cars, built by AC&F
in 1912 with four end posts. Photos taken late in the cars life show
at least one car had a length of rail added as a center post, so there
is also a "five post" end version. The added rail post would be easy
to model, as it didn't have any sheathing bolts; it was strictly a
brace added against the outside of the sheathing.

Dennis