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Resin kits and Barge Cement
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
As at least some of you are familiar, I have been somewhat of an enthusiast of Barge Cement for some years, and I continue to continue to consider it as one of my most valued bench "tools" for selective modeling purposes. It is a very tough and resilient relatively-slow-setting contact cement originally developed many decades ago for the shoe repair industry that incidentally can be applied in extremely tiny amounts without undue "stringiness". From being originally hard to find, it can now be purchased as standard stock in most (all?) Ace hardware stores (I just purchased a fresh tube here in rural Iowa).
Like other contact cements, the un-evaporated volatile solvent that keeps the glue liquid ready for application can attack substrates of styrene and resin, and painted surfaces- a significant issue only if over some elapsed time relatively large amounts of solvent are allowed to remain, or be trapped in surface contact- such as when parts are joined prematurely before the solvent has sufficiently "wicked off" (a stage also known as "full contact mode", usually within ten minutes). In conditions where parts are relatively thick and the amounts of glue are small, this simply is not a significant issue [period]. With these things in mind, and still using ACC as my primary cement, I increasingly use Barge cement as a now-essential-to-me adjunct to ACC in assembling resin kits, where too often one's natural range of "unsteady" hand movement exceeds the size of the parts, or the precision of placement. The bare bones advantage is that its inherent gap-filling "stickiness" right out of the tube, and its slow set up (ten minutes to full contact mode, longer if not using contact features) allows one to position tiny parts and they will then stay put but still moveable while you can then address your efforts to moving them precisely into the ideal position. After they are in position, and the glue has set up sufficiently that the parts will no longer easily move (about ten minutes or so), I then will often apply ACC to "set" the same joint so that I can quickly handle the model again and move on to other things. I also now use Barge cement in the assembly of "flat" house car kits, especially when the roof fit is such that the joint is very difficult to reach with ACC without excessive "flow". I also use the cement, always in full contact mode (or GOO in past years) to fasten weights to the floors (typographic lead alloy slugs). These glues never fail in this chore. Although there has been much talk about the "fumes" trapped from any remaining un-evaporated solvents within an assembled model eventually causing unspecified damage, I have yet to personally witness this actually happening (nor seen any relevant data). Nevertheless, not looking for trouble :-) , I do not button up any house car until the parts to be joined pass a demanding "sniff test" that will detect any significant amount of remaining fumes. The secret to delivering the tiny drops of this contact cement lies in drilling a tiny hole through the pointed crown of the tube cap, just large enough to accommodate a pin or wire to use as a stopper- usually in the range of .040-.060". I commonly use a T-shaped specimen pin. The crown of the cap, perfect for delivering the glue into close spaces is however surrounded by a plastic rim. Take a set of small side cutters and remove the rim- and you are ready to go. The shelf life of an opened tube that has had care taken to keep it "stoppered" is about two years. Keeping it in the freezer would undoubtedly improve this record. Like with all cements, misuse or careless use can cause damage, and Barge is not perfect for all occasions. There is also a learning curve. Nevertheless, I am comfortable, if not actually enthusiastic, advising those who ask, to add this good product to their routine hobby armamentarium and learn how to use it. I have now firmly retired GOO, after using it since about 1950. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento |
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red_gate_rover
--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
continue to consider it as one of my most valued bench "tools" for selectiveIs this called Barge Cement on the tube? Is there a brand name? -Jim Pasquill |
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docdenny34 <danspach@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Jim Pasquill wrote:
Is this called Barge Cement on the tube? Is there a brand name?Barge Cement is the brand name, and you can buy it most commonly in a 2 oz. tube, but also in larger amounts into the gallons. The maker, Quabaug Corporation, is also the US maker of Vibram shoe soles (all of them) and related shoe repair products. I would be surprised that they would have the slightest inkling that this ancient product is being currently touted for "micro" use. Denny |
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Greg Martin
Doc,
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Have you ever tried this special "Brew" to hold Delrin types of plastic with any success? I use regular contact cement with SOME success but would welcome an alternative... inquiring minds would like to know... Greg Martin -----Original Message-----
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 7:12 am Subject: [STMFC] Resin kits and Barge Cement As at least some of you are familiar, I have been somewhat of an enthusiast of Barge Cement for some years, and I continue to continue to consider it as one of my most valued bench "tools" for selective modeling purposes. It is a very tough and resilient relatively-slow-setting contact cement originally developed many decades ago for the shoe repair industry that incidentally can be applied in extremely tiny amounts without undue "stringiness". From being originally hard to find, it can now be purchased as standard stock in most (all?) Ace hardware stores (I just purchased a fresh tube here in rural Iowa). Like other contact cements, the un-evaporated volatile solvent that keeps the glue liquid ready for application can attack substrates of styrene and resin, and painted surfaces- a significant issue only if over some elapsed time relatively large amounts of solvent are allowed to remain, or be trapped in surface contact- such as when parts are joined prematurely before the solvent has sufficiently "wicked off" (a stage also known as "full contact mode", usually within ten minutes). In conditions where parts are relatively thick and the amounts of glue are small, this simply is not a significant issue [period]. With these things in mind, and still using ACC as my primary cement, I increasingly use Barge cement as a now-essential-to-me adjunct to ACC in assembling resin kits, where too often one's natural range of "unsteady" hand movement exceeds the size of the parts, or the precision of placement. The bare bones advantage is that its inherent gap-filling "stickiness" right out of the tube, and its slow set up (ten minutes to full contact mode, longer if not using contact features) allows one to position tiny parts and they will then stay put but still moveable while you can then address your efforts to moving them precisely into the ideal position. After they are in position, and the glue has set up sufficiently that the parts will no longer easily move (about ten minutes or so), I then will often apply ACC to "set" the same joint so that I can quickly handle the model again and move on to other things. I also now use Barge cement in the assembly of "flat" house car kits, especially when the roof fit is such that the joint is very difficult to reach with ACC without excessive "flow". I also use the cement, always in full contact mode (or GOO in past years) to fasten weights to the floors (typographic lead alloy slugs). These glues never fail in this chore. Although there has been much talk about the "fumes" trapped from any remaining un-evaporated solvents within an assembled model eventually causing unspecified damage, I have yet to personally witness this actually happening (nor seen any relevant data). Nevertheless, not looking for trouble :-) , I do not button up any house car until the parts to be joined pass a demanding "sniff test" that will detect any significant amount of remaining fumes. The secret to delivering the tiny drops of this contact cement lies in drilling a tiny hole through the pointed crown of the tube cap, just large enough to accommodate a pin or wire to use as a stopper- usually in the range of .040-.060". I commonly use a T-shaped specimen pin. The crown of the cap, perfect for delivering the glue into close spaces is however surrounded by a plastic rim. Take a set of small side cutters and remove the rim- and you are ready to go. The shelf life of an opened tube that has had care taken to keep it "stoppered" is about two years. Keeping it in the freezer would undoubtedly improve this record. Like with all cements, misuse or careless use can cause damage, and Barge is not perfect for all occasions. There is also a learning curve. Nevertheless, I am comfortable, if not actually enthusiastic, advising those who ask, to add this good product to their routine hobby armamentarium and learn how to use it. I have now firmly retired GOO, after using it since about 1950. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. |
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Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
After a suggestion by Denny I use it when attaching Kadee Engineering plastic
roofwalks to other boxcars, seems to be working find so far. I also use it for Plano and other metal roofwalks. Brian Carlson |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Denny Anspach wrote:
I also use the cement, always in full contact mode (or GOO in past years) to fasten weightsDenny, I would be happy to show you some examples of GOO-warped styrene freight car floors, which had weights attached as you describe. Using it in "full contact mode" was not a sufficient remedy. I now use only water-base adhesives in attaching car weights. My advice would be, at least be VERY careful using solvent adhesives under a car weight. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
While you need to wait for it to dry some I have found RTV a good material to attach weights with. It does have a smell (i.e. some kind of solvent) but whatever it is does not seem to attack anything. RTV can be a really good glue if you buy the right type!
Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Paul Lyons
Greg,
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The Barge works well on larger Delrin parts (i.e. Kadee roofwalks), but it is tough to use on the smaller parts. Reason being, even on the tip of a pin the minimum amount of Barge you can "pick up" for use is excessive for small part application. I use Cool Cem to attach all engineered plastic parts and no longer consider them a problem when super detailing a kit. Paul Lyons Laguna Niguel, CA -----Original Message-----
From: tgregmrtn@... To: STMFC@... Sent: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 9:23 am Subject: Re: [STMFC] Resin kits and Barge Cement Doc, Have you ever tried this special "Brew" to hold Delrin types of plastic with any success? I use regular contact cement with SOME success but would welcome an alternative... inquiring minds would like to know... Greg Martin -----Original Message----- From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 7:12 am Subject: [STMFC] Resin kits and Barge Cement As at least some of you are familiar, I have been somewhat of an enthusiast of Barge Cement for some years, and I continue to continue to consider it as one of my most valued bench "tools" for selective modeling purposes. It is a very tough and resilient relatively-slow-setting contact cement originally developed many decades ago for the shoe repair industry that incidentally can be applied in extremely tiny amounts without undue "stringiness". From being originally hard to find, it can now be purchased as standard stock in most (all?) Ace hardware stores (I just purchased a fresh tube here in rural Iowa). Like other contact cements, the un-evaporated volatile solvent that keeps the glue liquid ready for application can attack substrates of styrene and resin, and painted surfaces- a significant issue only if over some elapsed time relatively large amounts of solvent are allowed to remain, or be trapped in surface contact- such as when parts are joined prematurely before the solvent has sufficiently "wicked off" (a stage also known as "full contact mode", usually within ten minutes). In conditions where parts are relatively thick and the amounts of glue are small, this simply is not a significant issue [period]. With these things in mind, and still using ACC as my primary cement, I increasingly use Barge cement as a now-essential-to-me adjunct to ACC in assembling resin kits, where too often one's natural range of "unsteady" hand movement exceeds the size of the parts, or the precision of placement. The bare bones advantage is that its inherent gap-filling "stickiness" right out of the tube, and its slow set up (ten minutes to full contact mode, longer if not using contact features) allows one to position tiny parts and they will then stay put but still moveable while you can then address your efforts to moving them precisely into the ideal position. After they are in position, and the glue has set up sufficiently that the parts will no longer easily move (about ten minutes or so), I then will often apply ACC to "set" the same joint so that I can quickly handle the model again and move on to other things. I also now use Barge cement in the assembly of "flat" house car kits, especially when the roof fit is such that the joint is very difficult to reach with ACC without excessive "flow". I also use the cement, always in full contact mode (or GOO in past years) to fasten weights to the floors (typographic lead alloy slugs). These glues never fail in this chore. Although there has been much talk about the "fumes" trapped from any remaining un-evaporated solvents within an assembled model eventually causing unspecified damage, I have yet to personally witness this actually happening (nor seen any relevant data). Nevertheless, not looking for trouble :-) , I do not button up any house car until the parts to be joined pass a demanding "sniff test" that will detect any significant amount of remaining fumes. The secret to delivering the tiny drops of this contact cement lies in drilling a tiny hole through the pointed crown of the tube cap, just large enough to accommodate a pin or wire to use as a stopper- usually in the range of .040-.060". I commonly use a T-shaped specimen pin. The crown of the cap, perfect for delivering the glue into close spaces is however surrounded by a plastic rim. Take a set of small side cutters and remove the rim- and you are ready to go. The shelf life of an opened tube that has had care taken to keep it "stoppered" is about two years. Keeping it in the freezer would undoubtedly improve this record. Like with all cements, misuse or careless use can cause damage, and Barge is not perfect for all occasions. There is also a learning curve. Nevertheless, I am comfortable, if not actually enthusiastic, advising those who ask, to add this good product to their routine hobby armamentarium and learn how to use it. I have now firmly retired GOO, after using it since about 1950. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento __________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. |
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
My esteemed colleague on the coast, Greg Martin, inquires-
Have you ever tried this special "Brew" to hold Delrin types of plastic with any success?The answer is a qualified no. I have used it on occasion to steady the Accumate Proto small coupler box (which seem to be made of acetal or similar plastic) from rotating, when I am only able to fasten the box with a single screw, but I would as yet not trust the glue alone. I do roughen up both surfaces so that the cement will have a least some chance of hanging on mechanically, however. I just noted a Workshop article in the latest MR (p. 34) describing a new Loktite "all plastics" Super Glue two part product that reportedly will cement acetal plastics, such as handrails. It looks worth a try. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento |
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docdenny34 <danspach@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
Denny, I would be happy to show you some examples of GOO-warpedWell, I certainly cannot deny your observation, Tony, but I strongly suspect that the cement might possibly have been applied so thick that although the surface came into full contact mode, the center was still liquid full of solvent. I first startd attaching weights with GOO to the floors of countless styrene Athearn cars beginning in the late fifties, and in more recent years scores of Accurail cars. Although I certainly cannot attest to what I may not have looked for, I simply have not had the experence such as you describe, not even once. Having had to deal with a number of otherwise fine models buit by others with loose weights banging around in a sealed body, my hair stands on end when I read of others using and or advocating anything but a true adhesive i.e. clear silicone caulk- to fasten weights in, Accidents just waiting to happen. Denny |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Denny Anspach wrote:
Well, I certainly cannot deny your observation, Tony, but I strongly suspect that the cementOf course. But the application was ATTEMPTED to be in "contact" mode, with the adhesive superficially "dry." Thus my warning. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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William Keene <wakeene@...>
Paul,
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Where does one purchase Cool Cem? Thanks, -- Bill Keene Irvine, CA On Aug 7, 2007, at 12:07 PM, cobrapsl@... wrote:
Greg, |
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radius158
What is "contact mode" ? Doug gardner
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--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
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benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Bill Keene asked:
"Where does one purchase Cool C[h]em?" Mike Rose Hobbies: http://www.mrhobby.com/Cyantips.html Ben Hom |
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Allen Cain <allencain@...>
Here is the website address for Cool Chem
http://www.coolchem.com/thestore/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_returning_logi n <http://www.coolchem.com/thestore/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_returning_log in&CFID=2022674&CFTOKEN=92924808> &CFID=2022674&CFTOKEN=92924808 Allen Cain |
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "radius158" <gard158@...> wrote:
The way any contact cement is designed to be used: Apply an even coat to each side of the joint; Allow to dry THROUGHLY; Press the two parts together. The intention is to allow the fast evaporating solvents that keep the cement liquid to flash off, otherwise they will be trapped in the joint and have to migrate through one or both pieces to escape. Since the solvents used to dissolve the synthetic rubbers used to make the cement also soften styrene, this is bad. Denny makes the point because many people were in the habit of using Walthers GOO like it was Ambroid cement; just plunk the part in a puddle of liquid glue and expect it to be fastened in place when the glue finally dries. Doing this in an enclosed plastic carbody is a recipe for disaster as the solvents evaporate, then permeate through the plastic parts enclosing the space. Keep in mind, however, that contact cements are formulated with a mixture of solvents that have different rates of evaporation. The fast solvents are expected to flash off quickly, before the parts are brought together, while the slower solvents keep the glue soft and pliable so it will bond to itself. This is why contact cements normally specify a maximum "open time"; exceed it and likely the cement will be too hard to form a bond. These slower solvents will also soften styrene. Silicone RTV caulk isn't immune from this; that vinegar like odor is the acetic acid used to inhibit the cure while it is in the tube. It also has to gas off before the bond will develop, but at least acetic acid doesn't soften styrene. Dennis |
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
A comment has been made about the difficulties experienced in transferring sufficiently-minute amounts of Barge Cement with a toothpick or wire.
True enough; and it illustrates well an essential point in the use of this product to cement very tiny parts: the glue has to be applied to the parts fresh and free-flowing, as in "direct from the tube", before glue has the slightest chance in the free air to begin to set up- which it will start to do immediately. That is the point of converting the otherwise tightened-down tube cap into a fairly "pointy" direct applicator with only a .040-.060" orifice (sized to whatever stopper pin you may have chosen) to deliver the tiny amounts of glue directly to the parts. The stream of glue that can be expressed through this tiny orifice can be pretty fine, I can assure you! I first used this cement several years ago to fasten in place tiny retainer valves (a traditional nemesis), and then to first balance and then cement thin flanges onto the knife-edges (seemingly) of vertical plates and angles required to replicate various channel and Z-shaped structural members. To anticipate a question- Yes, the edges of the joined parts are as clean of visible cement as is the usual case with ACC alone. As mentioned previously, there IS a learning curve; but not more so, or perhaps even less than that required for mastering the vagaries of ACC. Do I know that this is a cement that will last forever? I don't, but my experience with other contact cements, Goo (and in the distant past Pliobond), and the ancient ancestry of Barge Cement persuades me that they will indeed last for a very long time. Although always looking with great interest and anticipation to new products, I am also inherently cautionary of new products thought to "last forever". They may well do so, but in fact we do not know, nor can we anticipate what substrate damage may occur (this is a subject matter of continuing earnest ongoing -and never boring- debate both in medicine, and in historical materials and art conservation circles). Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Keep in mind, however, that contact cements are formulated with a mixture of solvents that have different rates of evaporation. The fast solvents are expected to flash off quickly, before the parts are brought together, while the slower solvents keep the glue soft and pliable so it will bond to itself. . . These slower solvents will also soften styrene.Exactly. It may just take longer. I was speaking of freight car floors which had been glued to the weight years earlier. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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William Keene <wakeene@...>
Ben,
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Thanks, -- Bill Keene Irvine, CA On Aug 8, 2007, at 4:00 AM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:
Bill Keene asked: |
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Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
Hi guys.
In the UK modellers commonly drill a few holes in an inconspicuos area underneat to allow adhesive and glue fumes to escape. For weights that might not glue extremely easily to the interior of cars I enclose them in a box (note enclose not seal) of a material that will glue easily to the inside of the car. I then drill vent holes as well. I frequently use English 2p coins as weights as they are a definite weight and cost less than wheel balance weights and a Line weights. Cents might be too light and quarters to expensive in the USA. Could Denny Anspach contact me offline please. his link doesn't seem to work on my computer. Regards Philip Dove |
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