Soph Marty's slides


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

I'm going to give the long version of this story to keep it in the
group's context.
A few years ago my friend Jim Hunt borrowed Soph Marty's slide
collection and scanned what Jim thought were his best slides. He
burnt over two thousand of them onto CDs for himself and friends
(me). After receiving permission from Soph I sent many freight car
jpegs to John at RPI to add to his website. Later Soph got his own
scanner and began scanning slides and emailing them out. He had
different groups including freight cars. Soph stopped as his health
deteriorated. Soph passed away earlier this summer. Sunday there was
a local memorial service. Many of his modeler/railfan friends
attended. Soph's son will get the slides.
Here's the purpose of this post. He wants to scan the entire
collection (thousands of slides). Money to buy a batch scanner isn't
a problem, he has volunteers to do the scanning and the archives
department at the local library will administer the collection. BUT,
he wants to also scan the slide mount too. Soph could print very tiny
(weird for a doctor) and put lots of info on the slide mounts. His
son is afraid once the scans start pinging around in cyberspace the
info and credit will be lost. First, does anyone know of a way to
scan the slide mount and keep it attached to the slide? Second, does
anyone know of a better way to keep the slide info and credit with
the image?
Feel free to contact me off list with good suggestions.

When I said Jim scanned what he thought were the best slides doesn't
mean the best slides. Soph took hundreds of slides of the NKP
Berkshires. The best of which Soph sold to Blackhawk and used the
money to buy more film. Anyway, Jim doesn't like steam, but he only
scanned a few of the Berks. Jim likes shinny diesels so I think he
scanned every NKP diesel Soph ever shot.

With Soph's passing I thought it would be nice to pay tribute to him
by showing his slides at the `Desert feeding frenzy' Friday evening
during the Naperville meet. I made the suggestion to Martin. He had
either already made arrangement or doesn't realize the quality of
Soph's collection, because he passed on the opportunity. Those of you
who will be attending the meet and know this collection please put a
bug in Martin's ear to show it next year. Yes, I there will be ample
freight cars in the mix.
Thank you,
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Tim O'Connor
 

Clark, a slide show is a great idea! Soph often sent along
an entire anecdote with his slides, not just a description
of what was in the picture. I have over 500+ of his scans
from his mailing list, many of them are absolute gems. I
have no doubt at all that a book could be made from the
best photos. The photos I've seen span from the 1950's to
nearly the present. The collection must be huge -- Soph was
mailing them out alphabetically, and mine only go up to "G"
for Great Northern... I wanted to ask Soph if he could skip
a few letters and get to "S" for Southern Pacific but of
course I never did... Soph put a lot of himself into the
emails and I think that would come across in a book.

I hope Soph's son understands the monetary value of those
slides. On Ebay, original color slides of 1950's freight
cars will easily fetch $50, $100, or more -- each! A recent
slide shot by Matt Herson of an NP diesel sold for $1100 !!!
And it was a 1960's photo! (It was no fluke either -- I've
checked and seen scores of slides selling for more than
$300 apiece, and a few over $1000.)

Tim O'Connor

At 8/8/2007 09:44 AM Wednesday, you wrote:

I'm going to give the long version of this story to keep it in the
group's context.

A few years ago my friend Jim Hunt borrowed Soph Marty's slide
collection and scanned what Jim thought were his best slides. He
burnt over two thousand of them onto CDs for himself and friends
(me). After receiving permission from Soph I sent many freight car
jpegs to John at RPI to add to his website. Later Soph got his own
scanner and began scanning slides and emailing them out. He had
different groups including freight cars. Soph stopped as his health
deteriorated. Soph passed away earlier this summer. Sunday there was
a local memorial service. Many of his modeler/railfan friends
attended. Soph's son will get the slides.

Here's the purpose of this post. He wants to scan the entire
collection (thousands of slides). Money to buy a batch scanner isn't
a problem, he has volunteers to do the scanning and the archives
department at the local library will administer the collection. BUT,
he wants to also scan the slide mount too. Soph could print very tiny
(weird for a doctor) and put lots of info on the slide mounts. His
son is afraid once the scans start pinging around in cyberspace the
info and credit will be lost. First, does anyone know of a way to
scan the slide mount and keep it attached to the slide? Second, does
anyone know of a better way to keep the slide info and credit with
the image?

Feel free to contact me off list with good suggestions.

When I said Jim scanned what he thought were the best slides doesn't
mean the best slides. Soph took hundreds of slides of the NKP
Berkshires. The best of which Soph sold to Blackhawk and used the
money to buy more film. Anyway, Jim doesn't like steam, but he only
scanned a few of the Berks. Jim likes shinny diesels so I think he
scanned every NKP diesel Soph ever shot.

With Soph's passing I thought it would be nice to pay tribute to him
by showing his slides at the `Desert feeding frenzy' Friday evening
during the Naperville meet. I made the suggestion to Martin. He had
either already made arrangement or doesn't realize the quality of
Soph's collection, because he passed on the opportunity. Those of you
who will be attending the meet and know this collection please put a
bug in Martin's ear to show it next year. Yes, there will be ample
freight cars in the mix.

Thank you,
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Brad Bower <bradley.bower@...>
 

Dear Mr. Propst

Having read your post today regarding the need to archive film images into digital files may I make several suggestions.

Firstly my background: I am Brad Bower a photojournalist in Philadelphia, formerly staff at the Philadelphia Daily News , currently a freelancer shooting for the NYT, Bloomberg News, USA- Today and the Reuters News service. I am quite well versed with handling images in the film and digital domain.

When you take the time as you are to scan these images from the original film, B&W or color transparencies or color negatives always scan at the highest resolution to preserve the highest quality master JPEG file. 300 DPI, 8"x10'' with at least 8-10 Megs size. This will allow you make reproduction quality hard copy prints as well as re- tasking the images into 72 DPI files for viewing on a computer or online. If you scan a low resolution, example a 72 DPI file, you do not have a master that is robust enough to make a good quality hard copy print or re-task it into a 300 DPI file. Rule of thumb make the biggest master file possible, you can always make a copy smaller. Once a master file is created burn it to a DVD, never use it except to create a copy of the image to work on, that way you can never inadvertently destroy it. I know there is a cost to creating and saving large image files but once done you have an archive for eternity.

I recommend using professional editing software such as PhotoShop CSII (PhotoShop Elements doesn't cut it). It is a robust program which can facilitate all your picture editing needs. Firstly, you can copyright the images in PhotoShop using the watermark filter, which can never be altered or abused, do this only with the copy files never the master file. Secondly the data on the slide mounts may be saved with each image by opening the file info: ITPC caption, this captioning capability imbeds the copy within the image for all time. Each copy of the image has the caption within its data, ITPC caption is a standard within the industry. I know of no method to scan the slide mount and the film image.

I trust this may be of some help in your efforts to secure the collection of images into a digital archive. The hard work will be the reward of saving pieces of history for the next generation.

Sincerely

Bradley C Bower


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Brad,

Here in the library world, my colleagues who work with DVDs and CDs have noted that most brands of these disks have a short life (sometimes less than five years). They not only deteriorate as they are played, but many also can just decay with age while in storage.

The best quality are archival gold disks, which are not widely available. I was unable to find any archival disks at computer or electronics stores in my area. Most clerks had never heard of them, but one told me the chain he works for didn't carry them because they sold too slowly. One online source is Data Mediastore.com ( http://www.datamediastore.com/ ). They aren't cheap, but original images are precious.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Brad Bower wrote:

Dear Mr. Propst

Having read your post today regarding the need to archive film images into digital files may I make several suggestions.

Firstly my background: I am Brad Bower a photojournalist in Philadelphia, formerly staff at the Philadelphia Daily News , currently a freelancer shooting for the NYT, Bloomberg News, USA- Today and the Reuters News service. I am quite well versed with handling images in the film and digital domain.

When you take the time as you are to scan these images from the original film, B&W or color transparencies or color negatives always scan at the highest resolution to preserve the highest quality master JPEG file. 300 DPI, 8"x10'' with at least 8-10 Megs size. This will allow you make reproduction quality hard copy prints as well as re- tasking the images into 72 DPI files for viewing on a computer or online. If you scan a low resolution, example a 72 DPI file, you do not have a master that is robust enough to make a good quality hard copy print or re-task it into a 300 DPI file. Rule of thumb make the biggest master file possible, you can always make a copy smaller. Once a master file is created burn it to a DVD, never use it except to create a copy of the image to work on, that way you can never inadvertently destroy it. I know there is a cost to creating and saving large image files but once done you have an archive for eternity.

I recommend using professional editing software such as PhotoShop CSII (PhotoShop Elements doesn't cut it). It is a robust program which can facilitate all your picture editing needs. Firstly, you can copyright the images in PhotoShop using the watermark filter, which can never be altered or abused, do this only with the copy files never the master file. Secondly the data on the slide mounts may be saved with each image by opening the file info: ITPC caption, this captioning capability imbeds the copy within the image for all time. Each copy of the image has the caption within its data, ITPC caption is a standard within the industry. I know of no method to scan the slide mount and the film image.

I trust this may be of some help in your efforts to secure the collection of images into a digital archive. The hard work will be the reward of saving pieces of history for the next generation.

Sincerely

Bradley C Bower


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth G. Groff wrote:
Here in the library world, my colleagues who work with DVDs and CDs have noted that most brands of these disks have a short life (sometimes less than five years). They not only deteriorate as they are played, but many also can just decay with age while in storage.
Quite true, but saying "most brands" misses the point. There are soundly based and thorough media quality guides out there--my experience has been good with digitalFAQ.com--and it's clear that one CAN buy excellent media, and can even more easily buy complete crap. I've had some discs die in a few years, others up to 12 years old are fine. It's definitely "buyer beware."

The best quality are archival gold disks, which are not widely available. . . They aren't cheap, but original images are precious.
I completely agree that price shouldn't rule these decisions about archival media, but not all "gold" discs are excellent, nor are the better "non-gold" discs necessarily inferior. Spend a little time on the web before making some of these decisions. And as Garth says, quit shopping for the very lowest possible unit price!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brad Bower wrote:
When you take the time as you are to scan these images from the original film, B&W or color transparencies or color negatives always scan at the highest resolution to preserve the highest quality master JPEG file. 300 DPI, 8"x10'' with at least 8-10 Megs size. This will allow you make reproduction quality hard copy prints as well as re-tasking the images into 72 DPI files for viewing on a computer or online.
I don't disagree with Brad in general, but would state even more strongly the need to scan at the highest practical resolution. A 35-mm slide is a very small image. To print it in a publication, it is enlarged about 7 times. Take the resolution at which you scan the slide and divide by seven to see where you are headed. It is no accident that the Nikon Cool-Scan operates at 4000 dpi for slides. It sounds immense, but 4000 divided by 7 is 571. That's still high; but if you need to crop much of the image away, or if you are printing across two pages, things which do happen, you will need every bit of that 571. And as RGB files, these will not be 8 to 10 Meg, they will be more like 25 Meg and up. If you save them as jpegs, be sure they are at "maximum quality," or the setting of 12. Anything else, and you are throwing away part of what you just scanned. Personally, I would recommend saving them as tiffs, not as jpegs, just to be certain.
Archiving images is not a simple matter, partly because technology is definitely still changing and improving. But don't take shortcuts with something like Soph's slides.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Thanks for the comments Brad, I will pass them on. I have nothing to do
with this project. I don't know what media material they will store the
images on or when the scanning will happen. We were asked for our
suggestions and I thought this was the best place to get suggestions ;-)

Tim, all, you'll have to take the slide show thing up with Martin.

I'm always amazed at the knowledge of this group. Last winter when I
decided to build the F&C Wabash gon I bought at CCB I enlisted Wabash
Guru Chet French's help. In return for the photos Chet sent me I sent
him a photo Soph had took. Soph was in the cab of a Monon pass train
that was over taking a Wabash freight with one of the F&C gons right
behind the AA set. Chet knew exactly where the photo was taken!!

Thanks to all,
Clark Propst


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

I sent all your replies and comment ot Soph's son. Here is his response.
Clark Propst

Thank you for this information. I quite agree that a big image
is much better. TIFF is the format I prefer as it can be done with
compression yet 100% data retention.

What we need is a scanner that can do the image and the shell. It must
have a bulk loader which will allow it to scan, say, 50 or 100 slides,
one after another, dumping the results to a hard disk.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

What we need is a scanner that can do the image and the shell. It must have a bulk loader which will allow it to scan, say, 50 or 100 slides, one after another, dumping the results to a hard disk.
I think I'd use a dedicated slide scanner to do the images, then gang-scan bunchs of slides on a flatbed to get the mounts. Eventually the info on the mounts has to be added to the images, either as metadata in the file, or in a white strip added at the bottom, or as a small strip of mount image built onto the slide image. Given how transparent images are scanned, I personally do NOT believe you can usefully scan both image and mount at the same time.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Andy Carlson
 

I think that finding a scanner that can scan the plane of the image and simultaneously the plane of the mount is going to be a problem. Each has a plane of focus that is so narrow that you would need a scanner designed for scanning dual planes to do what you are asking. Such a purpose-built scanner, if it exists, would probably be quite pricey.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

What we need is a scanner that can do the image and the shell.


Tim O'Connor
 

This will not work -- the film, and the slide holder, are not in the
same plane. Scanners work by FOCUSING their beams at a single
height -- usually very close to the surface of the glass. If the film is
in focus, then the lettering will not be. Or if the lettering is in focus,
then the film will not be.

On the other hand, if you're not concerned too much about the notes
being in focus, then any hi-res flatbed scanner will work -- just scan
the entire slide, and not just the film. You can't do 50 or use a "bulk
loader" but you can scan 12 or 16 in each batch.

It seems to me perfectly reasonable to paste Soph's notes/comments
and combine them with the image in Photoshop -- I have a bunch of
scans with "captions" like this. Heck, I wish all of my scans had
captions! :-)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "rockroll50401" <cepropst@netconx.net>
I sent all your replies and comment ot Soph's son. Here is his response.
Clark Propst
What we need is a scanner that can do the image and the shell. It must
have a bulk loader which will allow it to scan, say, 50 or 100 slides,
one after another, dumping the results to a hard disk.


jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Aug 8, 1:44pm, rockroll50401 wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Soph Marty's slides
With Soph's passing I thought it would be nice to pay tribute to him
by showing his slides at the `Desert feeding frenzy' Friday evening
during the Naperville meet. I made the suggestion to Martin. He had
either already made arrangement or doesn't realize the quality of
Soph's collection, because he passed on the opportunity.
Clark,

I would be very happy to accomodate such a slide show at Prototype
Rails in Cocoa Beach in January 2008.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Jim Williams <wwww5960@...>
 

Hi....I've come in late on this, so maybe I missed something. I have scaned many slides and Andy's statement below is accurate. Mount and image on the same pass won't happen.

Scanners are not multiplane and the holders are not designed to allow mounts to be scanned. By why the mount? I assume it's for information that was written there, if that's so then are two methods, both will be time consuming. One; Photoshop the info onto the bottom or side of the image one at a time after there scanned. Two; Use the file name to store info, that's usually entered as the slide is scanned. Both of these will defeat any advantage to bulk scanning.

You need also to be aware that you need to adjust the scanning image. All of the scanners I have used will crop the long portion of the image on a slide as set up. Unless you see "black bars" above and below you image your probably losing some of your image. you will need to use a "custom" setting.........best Jim Williams

Andy Carlson <midcentury@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I think that finding a scanner that can scan the plane of the image and simultaneously the plane of the mount is going to be a problem. Each has a plane of focus that is so narrow that you would need a scanner designed for scanning dual planes to do what you are asking. Such a purpose-built scanner, if it exists, would probably be quite pricey.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

What we need is a scanner that can do the image and the shell.








---------------------------------
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
This will not work -- the film, and the slide holder, are not in the same plane. Scanners work by FOCUSING their beams at a single height -- usually very close to the surface of the glass.
If this were true, Tim, why is it possible to lay a model on the glass and get a pretty good representation of the car side or underbody?
The real problem is that the transparency scans are accomplished with a light on one side and the detector on the other; reflective scans have light and detector on the same side. I cannot see how to do both at once unless you can fool the instrument into using both light sources at the same time.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

I guess I should have said that you need a scanner with good depth
of field. Most flatbeds do not have this. I know it from experience -- all
of the scans I've made of models or objects on the glass have been
more or less distorted. (Think fisheye lens.) Nowadays I use a digital
camera that stops down to F11, which gives me good focal depth.

But you pointed out something even more important -- the slide scan
is a transparency, while the slide holder is reflective. You can't do both
at the same time.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
This will not work -- the film, and the slide holder, are not in the
same plane. Scanners work by FOCUSING their beams at a single height
-- usually very close to the surface of the glass.
If this were true, Tim, why is it possible to lay a model on the
glass and get a pretty good representation of the car side or
underbody?


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Well...obviously my message was intended for Jeff Aley. However, it is not a bad idea to let the group know that we'll be looking for presenters at Cocoa Beach next Jan 3-6. We'll be having the pre meet dinner on Thusday, Jan 3 at 7PM and we'll be looking for slide shows at the hotel later that evening...8:30. The meet will be held...as usual..at the HILTON HOTEL, 1550 N. Atlantic Ave. [ highway A1a ], COCOA BEACH, FL, 1-800-526-2609 or 321-799-0003. $99 Room Rate. Refer to Prototype Rails.

More later.

Mike Brock


Charlie Vlk
 

Seems to me that, if you're going to have volunteers scanning the slides anyway, you'd want to transcribe the information on the
face of the slide mount to a database with some organized format so that any missing information about the image could be added.
(often something in the background is significant to a researcher).
This would make the collection searchable.... something that is going to be rather difficult with handwritten images of the slide mounts.
Perhaps a preamble can be made showing examples of Soph Marty's slide notations to record it for history and to convey a sense of the man
through his own hand....
Charlie Vlk


bkooistra@...
 

FWIW, I'm scanning my 35mm slides at 4000dpi (or, ppi, if you wish), which results in a giant image that loses very little to the original. I save the files in TIFF format, 8-bit, which give me a file of around 55 megabites. Yes, that's 55 megabites. I archive this file; from this file, if needed, I'll create much smaller jpeg files for use on line, for 8 X 10 prints, etc.

My advice, if you're going to go thru the trouble of scanning the original slide, is to scan as LARGE as you can the first time, and ALWAYS save in TIFF format. Everything else can flow from there. I can store approximately 80 such TIFF files on one DVD-R.

blair kooistra
fort worth, tx


Tim O'Connor
 

Blair Kooistra wrote

My advice, if you're going to go thru the trouble of
scanning the original slide, is to scan as LARGE as you
can the first time, and ALWAYS save in TIFF format.
Everything else can flow from there.
So far, so good.

I can store approximately 80 such TIFF files on one DVD-R.
Hmmm... where they will keep for perhaps 30 years before
the substrate degrades. Assuming one can still find DVD
players and software to read them 30 years from now, which
I have my doubts about...

Don't throw out them slides! :-)

Tim O'


Robert <riverob@...>
 

You might want to store the files on CD AND on hard drive(s). The
cost of large HDs continues to drop, as does all storage media. If
you are concerned about media degrading or becoming obsolete, re-copy
the files periodically. Five years from now, you can probably find
storage media averaging a cent or less per slide. Even now, I can
get blank CDs for free (with rebate). To much back-up is always
better than not enough.

Rob Simpson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Blair Kooistra wrote

My advice, if you're going to go thru the trouble of
scanning the original slide, is to scan as LARGE as you
can the first time, and ALWAYS save in TIFF format.
Everything else can flow from there.
So far, so good.

I can store approximately 80 such TIFF files on one DVD-R.
Hmmm... where they will keep for perhaps 30 years before
the substrate degrades. Assuming one can still find DVD
players and software to read them 30 years from now, which
I have my doubts about...

Don't throw out them slides! :-)

Tim O'