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Box Cars In Grain Service
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Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
As these cars traveled with their doors shut, was there (typically) any
temporary markings to identify these cars that one could look for in photographs? Thanks. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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"Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
Bob,
Don't really know what you are looking for. Since virtually any 40', 6' door car could be used for bulk grain I don't see where there would be any external markings. The large supply of similar cars floating around Canada and the U.S. could all be used for grain service as needed. Have never heard of any instance where a particular group of cars was "Assigned" to grain service. Many roads just called these cars "Common Boxes", meaning they were suitable for loading anything. Russ |
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jaley <jaley@...>
On Aug 10, 5:34pm, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Russ_Strodtz?= wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Box Cars In Grain Servicedoor car could be used for bulk grain I don't see where there would be any externalmarkings. Hmm. It is my understanding that grain loading required "Class A" box cars. How does a RR clerk know that a given car is "Class A" instead of "Class D" (for hide loading only)? It seems like a logistical problem, since a car can be contaminated or otherwise rendered unsuitable for grain loading in a single trip. With a computer database, this would be easy, but those kinds of databases won't be available for several decades. Regards, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley jaley@... DPG Chipsets Product Engineering Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533 |
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Hmm. It is my understanding that grain loading required "Class A" boxJeff, whether or not the clerk knows, the shipper inspects the car when it arrives, and rejects it if it's not clean and weather tight. Rejected cars are something we operators rarely model! :-) We don't even model the clean-out tracks in the yard, where piles of dunnage lay for ages. I suppose true-to-prototype inspection, clean-out, prep (e.g. pre-cool reefers), etc is discussed on the opsig mailing list... Tim O'Connor |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Jeff Aley wrote:
Hmm. It is my understanding that grain loading required "Class A" box cars. How does a RR clerk know that a given car is "Class A" instead of "Class D" (for hide loading only)?Stick his head inside the door? Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
We don't even model the clean-out tracks in the yard, where piles of dunnage lay for ages. I suppose true-to-prototype inspection, clean-out, prep (e.g. pre-cool reefers), etc is discussed on the opsig mailing list...I agree with Tim that this is a good thing to model, and an even better thing to include in layout operations. However: Reefers might or might not be cleaned out where other cars were cleaned. (PFE did it in their own facilities, as did at least a few other reefer operatiors.) And reefers weren't pre-cooled, they were pre-iced. LOADS are pre-cooled. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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I agree with Tim that this is a good thing to model, and anSo putting ice into a reefer doesn't make it cool? What are you saying Tony? Honestly, sometimes .... :-) Tim O'Connor |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
So putting ice into a reefer doesn't make it cool? What are you saying Tony? Honestly, sometimes .... :-)Just using the tariff terminology, and the terminology of people who worked in protective services, instead of sometimes-imprecise "popular" terms. Take yer choice, sir. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Guy Wilber
In a message dated 8/11/2007 11:47:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
jaley@... writes: Hmm. It is my understanding that grain loading required "Class A" box cars. How does a RR clerk know that a given car is "Class A" instead of "Class D" (for hide loading only)? A box car had to be rated only as high as class "C" for most grain. As long as the floor and side sheathing were relatively leak free the car was coopered and it was good to go. Flour and like commodities required class "A" cars. Hides and other contaminating products were to be only loaded into cars classed for "rough freight" which was most anything below a "D" and usually noted as such by the owning road. Use of anything higher in class for contaminating goods was a sure fire way to pay the owning road's expense to rebuild the car. The AAR's classification requirements have been offered here at least a couple times. Every clerk used his knowledge and discretion while rating cars and the opinions varied from road to road and (highly likely) from man to man. Regards, Guy Wilber West Bend, WI ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour |
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Chet French <cfrench@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...> wrote:
any temporary markings to identify these cars that one could look for inUsually a clerk or carman would inspect the mty cars and tag them to show what class loading the cars was suitable for. Often it would also be noted on switch lists as "OK grain", or "OK class A loading, or OK brick ldg", or "clean out". Chet French Dixon, IL |
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armprem
Some cars were specifically stenciled,"For Clean Lading Only", "For Flour Service ( Loading)",as well as "For Hide Service Only"..Other cars were kept in captive service for grain delivery with or without a specific stencil.In more recent years the CN identified cars by a series of letters designating the type of loads,i.e. A,B,C,etc.Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 2:25 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Box Cars In Grain Service I agree with Tim that this is a good thing to model, and anSo putting ice into a reefer doesn't make it cool? What are |
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armprem
Not just leak free,but also vermin free.Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: <guycwilber@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Box Cars In Grain Service In a message dated 8/11/2007 11:47:13 AM Central Daylight Time, |
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Ljack70117@...
Question! Why should your car for loading be vermin free? The wheat is full of bugs and bug eggs. Where do you think the bugs come from in your sack of flour? After the wheat is ground the eggs are in the flour. If they hatch before it is shipped the milling company just take it back up in the mill and dump it in to a sifter and sift the bugs out and put it into news sacks. Most of the time they do not hatch until you get it home and then in your warm cabinet the hatch. Mmmmmmmgood.You should see the crap that comes out of a car of wheat. Have any questions just email me.
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Thank you Larry Jackman Boca Raton FL ljack70117@... I was born with nothing and I have most of it left On Aug 11, 2007, at 8:21 PM, Armand Premo wrote:
Not just leak free,but also vermin free.Armand Premo |
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Armand Premo wrote:
"Not just leak free,but also vermin free." There doesn't seem like there's a lot of space in a boxcar for vermin to hide, especially in a single sheathed or a steel car. Maybe in a double sheathed. How much vermin could there be in a car. Or are you talking about SPFs with tape measures and cameras? ;-) Eric Petersson |
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"Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
General comment on responses:
Hide or Tankage cars were usually stenciled. At the same time if you were physically checking cars you would note it at that time, stenciled or not. Foreign cars were not placed for contaminated loading unless they had been supplied by the other road for that purpose. Yes, a load is pre-cooled. It's cars that are pre-iced. For example meat was usually loaded in pre-iced cars. That icing was often done by the packing house. After loading the cars would often be topped off before release to the carrier. Many field crops would be pre-cooled after they were loaded in a car. Lettuce was a prime example. The PFE book covers this in detail. Common box cars were most often supplied for grain loading "as is" without being inspected. The Shippers could reject if they wished but that may lead to poor relations with the crew that normally served the elevator. A rejected car is one less than you can load that day. In places where Carmen graded cars the best would usually be set aside for some particular loading. Would be the same if there was a clean-out track. Cars would often be mine run hundreds of miles to a clean-out track where there was a predictable defecit in common box cars. In areas where there was a large and steady loading of grain there would often be a coopering area set up either staffed by the Railroad or WWIB. It would be expected that if pre-coopered cars were supplied there would be almost no rejects. This would also be a better way of keeping track of your utilization of grain doors. Certainly better than having each elevator keeping it's own supply which would constantly need to be replenished. As Terminal Elevators emptied cars they would load cars full of grain doors and bill as directed by the WWIB. There was usually no sorting by road name done, it would just be too cumbersum. WWIB was carrier neutral anyway. WWIB = Western Weighing & Inspection Bureau They certified scales for Shipper's Weights, administered the grain door supply, and often administered Grain Inspection Tracks. Russ |
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "eric petersson" <newyorkcentralfan@...>
wrote: Lots of room between the steel sheathing and wood lining of the typical steel car of the era for weevils, roaches, and other insects attracted to rotting grain. But as Larry points out, who cares? A couple thousand roaches aren't going to put much of a dent in a couple thousand cubic feet of grain in the short amount of time it is transit. When the load got to the flour mill, they just sifted the little hitch-hikers out. The FDA had, and still has, a limit specifically for "insect parts" in flour, and no, it is not zero :-) This is one of the reasons that flour required a higher class car than grain; it was supposed to be clean AFTER it left the mill, and had to remain so. Between the field and elevator, and elevator and mill there was no reason to keep it any cleaner that the storage facilities at the elevator, which in years of good harvests was often piles on the ground. Dennis |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
eric petersson wrote:
There doesn't seem like there's a lot of space in a boxcar for vermin to hide, especially in a single sheathed or a steel car. Maybe in a double sheathed.The ends were a big problem when steel ends were sheathed inside--that left spaces which were perfect hiding places. And in steel cars, there was space behind the side sheathing too. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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I was thinking about rodents rather than insects.
Eric Petersson Dennis Storzek wrote: "Lots of room between the steel sheathing and wood lining of the typical steel car of the era for weevils, roaches, and other insects attracted to rotting grain. But as Larry points out, who cares? A couple thousand roaches aren't going to put much of a dent in a couple thousand cubic feet of grain in the short amount of time it is transit. When the load got to the flour mill, they just sifted the little hitch-hikers out. The FDA had, and still has, a limit specifically for "insect parts" in flour, and no, it is not zero :-) This is one of the reasons that flour required a higher class car than grain; it was supposed to be clean AFTER it left the mill, and had to remain so. Between the field and elevator, and elevator and mill there was no reason to keep it any cleaner that the storage facilities at the elevator, which in years of good harvests was often piles on the ground." |
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jaley <jaley@...>
On Aug 11, 11:11am, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Box Cars In Grain ServiceTony, I've thought about this, and I'm still not sure if you're joking. On the one hand, I have to remember that railroading (and everything else) was VERY labor-intensive during the steam-era. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine a clerk or clerks inspecting every single empty boxcar that moved through UP's yard in Kansas City, and that therefore might be confiscated for grain service. The first problem would be getting the doors open (from ground level). I suppose the guys were very strong, and if the door wouldn't open, they'd Bad Order the car (?). Regards, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley jaley@... DPG Chipsets Product Engineering Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533 |
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jaley <jaley@...>
On Aug 11, 7:47pm, Chet French wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Box Cars In Grain ServiceChet, When you say, "tag them", do you mean w/ a chalk marking, or would they staple something to the tack board? Richard Hendrickson has educated us that loaded cars should have a route card; should my clean EMPTY box cars (in Kansas grain territory) also have something on the tack board? Thanks, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley jaley@... DPG Chipsets Product Engineering Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533 |
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