Coins as car weights


Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Kurt Laughlin
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 August 2007 03:44
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coins as car weights
If you are going to cut up a lump of metal, why not have a look at junk you've got at work or in the workshop, In my current job in a maintenance depot we throw away lots of nice little steel angles made of steel about 1/16th thick, looking around i can find loads of metal bits I could use for weights, i also salvage all the hook up wire and fine washers for truck spacing that I could wish for.
I noted someone is weighting their cars to nmraNMRA recommendations, I find this far heavier than neccessary,and with the feeble pulling power of Athearn and P"K steam locos I find the optimum weight for my cars is about the weight of an Athearn car. In O gauge some freight cars need no extra weight because of the number of white metal components.
Regards Philip Dove


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

Even if no cheaper than pennies, it's a one-piece weight.

KL> I could see the advantage in that. I'll have to see if thicker stock is cheaper per oz.

Anyway,
something offends me about using coins for this purpose--even today's
pennies, which are a zinc alloy with a REALLY thin coating of copper.

KL> Eh, get over it - I did. Just today I jammed two of them into a joint in my computer desk at work to stop a wobble.

KL


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
When I read this I thought something was amiss. Metal prices have jumped dramatically in the last four years or so . . . At .283 lb/cu in, a .125 x .75 x 12 carbon steel piece would weigh just over 5 ounces, making it closer to 21 cents/oz. . . it's still no cheaper then pennies.
I confess, Kurt, I was going on prices several years ago--when last I bought some of that strip. Suggestion: buy some now if you want it, and in several years, it'll look like a bargain <g>.
Even if no cheaper than pennies, it's a one-piece weight. Anyway, something offends me about using coins for this purpose--even today's pennies, which are a zinc alloy with a REALLY thin coating of copper. Don't think those are copper pennies any more, guys.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

eric petersson wrote:
Costwise, pennies are $1.81 per pound, about 11� per oz. Nickels are
$4.54 per pound, about 28� per oz
Go to your hardware store and buy a strip of plain steel, around
3/4-inch wide and 1/8 inch thick. It's soft and cuts easily with a
hacksaw, costs about 5 cents an ounce, and works fine. Makes a nice
size weight in a single piece.

----- Original Message -----

When I read this I thought something was amiss. Metal prices have jumped dramatically in the last four years or so. (For example, stainless steel forgings that cost around $3/lb from 1995 to 2001 now go for about $8-$10/lb.) I checked the price of this stock at Lowe's tonight and the cheapest price was $1.06/ft (4 ft length). At .283 lb/cu in, a .125 x .75 x 12 carbon steel piece would weigh just over 5 ounces, making it closer to 21 cents/oz. (The plated, cold finished stuff was $1.15/ft.) Even if you could find NOS pieces at half that price, it's still no cheaper then pennies.

KL


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce D. Griffin wrote:
For maybe for the first time in the few years I have followed this list a topic has appeared that I am actually quite knowledgeable about and that is health and safety. "Lead vapor", fumes, or dusts are actually the most dangerous route of entry (inhalation) for lead.
No argument about fumes and dusts, but there just aren't vapor amounts of consequence. You can look it up. I still remember when our molten lead heat treating pots were the object of great excitement to the university "health" guys. They came by twice, having concluded the first time there was something wrong with the instruments when they measured zero lead in the air. There was none the second time either--which agrees with handbook data on vapor pressures.

Translating the numbers, I personally might melt lead outside, keeping my face away from the "pot" most of the time and staying up wind. . . When handling lead sheets as I do at the modeling work bench, I make it a habit to wash my hands just after handling leada to reduce the chance of ingestion. I agree a certain amount of "care is needed" but that includes vapors and dusts.
Good advice, which I don' believe is at odds with mine. But remember, say "fumes and dusts," not vapors. Finely divided lead oxide is indeed bad stuff.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, BERNARD SPINELLI <bspinelli@...> wrote:

on 8/14/07 11:48 AM, Garth G. Groff at ggg9y@... wrote:

Go out a buy a bag of lead shot #8 at any gun shop. It will last you a
lifetime & will fit in any spot on a car. Use epoxy to set the shot.
I have used curtain weights as well. These are woven over with fabric
into long "worms". Helps to keep them glued down with epoxy.

Manfred


bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>
 

Tony,

For maybe for the first time in the few years I have followed this
list a topic has appeared that I am actually quite knowledgeable
about and that is health and safety. "Lead vapor", fumes, or dusts
are actually the most dangerous route of entry (inhalation) for
lead. It gets into the blood stream quite quickly and completely
through the lungs. Ingestion (eating or through the mouth) is
usually a secondary route of exposure for adults and less of the
product is absorbed into the blood stream. Ingestion is the primary
route of exposure for children whose "safe" exposure levels are about
1/5 that of an adult when using blood lead levels to measure
exposure. Children are much more susceptible to lead exposure as it
can effect brain development (it doesn't take much). Adult's brains
are pretty much developed so on average they can tolerate higher
levels of exposure without negative affect to the brain, but then the
issue becomes other organs. Target organs in adults include: Eyes,
gastrointestinal tract, central nervous system, kidneys, blood, and
gingival tissue.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0368.html is the pocket guide page
from NIOSH and gives general information about exposure levels for
adults. Translating the numbers, I personally might melt lead
outside, keeping my face away from the "pot" most of the time and
staying up wind. And I would only do it on very limited occasions as
over time blood lead levels can reduce without repeated exposures.
When handling lead sheets as I do at the modeling work bench, I make
it a habit to wash my hands just after handling leada to reduce the
chance of ingestion. I agree a certain amount of "care is needed" but
that includes vapors and dusts.

Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin, MSOS, CSP

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Garth G. Groff wrote:
I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect
your
scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire
weights just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead
poisoning.

Handling lead with bare hands gets the oxide onto your skin,
and
may get it into your mouth or nose. I'd worry about that part, not
about the lead vapor.
Please do not think I was saying lead is harmless or that you
can
treat it cavalierly. Care is needed.
And by the way, Garth, if your father is 91 the lead must
not
have been TOO bad for him <meant in jest, of course>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Peter Weiglin
 

Lawrence Rast wrote:

Another option are lead ingots from Bass Pro Shops. Come to about $1.80 per
pound. Easily cut to 1/4, 1/2, 1 oz. sizes and attached with epoxy. Just
be careful when handling. As BPS's site says, "Do not place product in your
mouth."
= = =

And then I asked, "Why not just use the pennies? That designer lead sold in hobby shops is expensive.

So -- Nine pennies is just under one ounce. .984 of an ounce.
Ten pennies is 1.093 ounces.

Apply adhesive, and weights cost nine or ten cents per ounce.

But wait! Subsequent measurements showed that eleven pennies .0970 ounce.
Ten pennies is 1.058 ounces.

How come? Research followed. Turns out there two different weights for pennies, depending on when they were minted. Sometime in 1982, the metallic composition of the penny was changed, and the newer pennies are lighter. Pennies minted before 1982 gave the first set of numbers above, pennies minted after 1982 gave the second set.

No, I didn't have any 1982 pennies to check; I don't know if they changed at the end of a year or during 1982.

So, although it against the law to use pennies for other than their intended purpose, one could glue the requisite number of pennies inside a house car to weight it. Might even tack-solder groups of pennies together.


Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the
lead
that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In
reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There
will
not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you
have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the
bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)
I have heard that most lead (at least in Germany) is somewhat
contaminated by irradiation. Lead gets recycled many times over. Every
bit might have a history of having been engaged in the medical
business. This will show later on when its reincarnation into something
superficially harmless doesn't hint at its properties previously
acquired.

Manfred


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth G. Groff wrote:
I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect your scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire weights just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead poisoning.
Handling lead with bare hands gets the oxide onto your skin, and may get it into your mouth or nose. I'd worry about that part, not about the lead vapor.
Please do not think I was saying lead is harmless or that you can treat it cavalierly. Care is needed.
And by the way, Garth, if your father is 91 the lead must not have been TOO bad for him <meant in jest, of course>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Larry,

Good point, but no, my father never smoked in his life. Maybe that's why he's almost 91.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Ljack70117@comcast.net wrote:

Did he smoke while melting lead. That will do you in in a hurry.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@comcast.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left




On Aug 15, 2007, at 7:03 AM, Garth G. Groff wrote:


Tony,

I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect your
scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire weights
just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead poisoning.

I don't think melting lead is a good idea at all, and if it is done at
all, it should be outside as described in the post.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Anthony Thompson wrote:

Rich Orr wrote:


Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove
from wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and
keep any kids away, you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten
lead into sheets. Just avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do
this outside.

Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the lead
that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In
reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There will
not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you
have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the
bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net



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Ljack70117@...
 

Did he smoke while melting lead. That will do you in in a hurry.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@comcast.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Aug 15, 2007, at 7:03 AM, Garth G. Groff wrote:

Tony,

I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect your
scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire weights
just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead poisoning.

I don't think melting lead is a good idea at all, and if it is done at
all, it should be outside as described in the post.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Anthony Thompson wrote:
Rich Orr wrote:

Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove
from wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and
keep any kids away, you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten
lead into sheets. Just avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do
this outside.
Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the lead
that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In
reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There will
not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you
have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the
bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net




Yahoo! Groups Links



Lawrence Rast
 

Another option are lead ingots from Bass Pro Shops. Come to about $1.80 per
pound. Easily cut to 1/4, 1/2, 1 oz. sizes and attached with epoxy. Just
be careful when handling. As BPS's site says, "Do not place product in your
mouth."

Best,
Lawrence Rast

On 8/14/07, Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com> wrote:

Rich Orr wrote:
Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove
from wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and
keep any kids away, you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten
lead into sheets. Just avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do
this outside.
Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the lead
that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In
reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There will
not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you
have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the
bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net <thompsonmarytony%40sbcglobal.net>



Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony,

I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect your scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire weights just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead poisoning.

I don't think melting lead is a good idea at all, and if it is done at all, it should be outside as described in the post.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Anthony Thompson wrote:

Rich Orr wrote:

Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove from wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and keep any kids away, you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten lead into sheets. Just avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do this outside.
Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the lead that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There will not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Orr wrote:
Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove from wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and keep any kids away, you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten lead into sheets. Just avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do this outside.
Sound advice, because there are things like antimony in the lead that aren't good for you. But should you worry about the lead? In reality, the vapor pressure of liquid lead is extremely low. There will not be enough lead vapor that it could even be measured, unless you have a spectrograph. (Of course, I don't recommend leaning over the bath and breathing deeply from right above the melt.)

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


SUVCWORR@...
 

In a message dated 8/14/2007 12:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atsf@inow.com
writes:

But steel is magnetic. Lead is good but hard to get these days. Wheel
weights are not bad (lead) but you need to mail-order in CA. Copper and
brass are expensive.
Go to your local garage and ask them to keep the weights they remove from
wheels for you. If you don't mind the potential exposure and keep any kids away,
you can melt the wheel weights and pour the molten lead into sheets. Just
avoid breathing the fumes. It is best to do this outside.

Rich orr


**************************************
Get a sneak peek of the
all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


BERNARD SPINELLI <bspinelli@...>
 

on 8/14/07 11:48 AM, Garth G. Groff at ggg9y@virginia.edu wrote:

Tim,

Kadee under-the-track magnets can attract steel car weights at floor
level. Hard to see, but I've had cars equipped with super free-rolling
trucks like Kato's actually move by themselves toward the magnets.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@comcast.net <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> wrote:
Unless the steel is axle-height, I don't think it's going to have
any effect unless you're using super-magnets for uncouplers.
Plenty of models come with steel weights.

Tim O'Connor
Go out a buy a bag of lead shot #8 at any gun shop. It will last you a
lifetime & will fit in any spot on a car. Use epoxy to set the shot. bernie
spinelli


Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

You can order .040" and .062" lead sheet online from Small Parts Inc.,
www.smallparts.com. The 40 thou comes out to 37 cents an ounce in 12"-square
sheets, and the 62 thou is 40 cents an ounce in the same size sheet. Of
course, that's before you add in shipping charges from Florida, but if you
don't mind paying for convenience, there it is. (Pennies are definitely
cheaper, easily available, and non-magnetic, but they aren't as dense, which
counts for a lot when weighting flats and gons. They're harder to cut, too!)

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Kadee under-the-track magnets can attract steel car weights at floor level. Hard to see, but I've had cars equipped with super free-rolling trucks like Kato's actually move by themselves toward the magnets.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Unless the steel is axle-height, I don't think it's going to have
any effect unless you're using super-magnets for uncouplers.
Plenty of models come with steel weights.

Tim O'Connor


Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Only because you live in California Jon. In the rest of the world no
one worries about children climbing on roofs to eat the flashing, and
sheet lead is readily available at Home Depot - even here in the
People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Jon Miller

Lead is good but hard to get these days.

Jon Miller
AT&SF



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